Vatican attacks US abortion move

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick

Not all women feel like that though. A lot of the time the guilt comes from people who spout off about how abortion is murder and all that.

Do these women run around telling everyone that they had an abortion? Most likely not…

Maybe their guilt comes from when they get older and wiser and finally gain a conscience.

Wrong. The women I know - including myself - stand by their decision under the circumstances that they made their decision. I have not met one who felt guilt.

As a woman/mother/grandmother - - - who's first child was a spontaneous miscarriage - - then had two children - - then had an abortion. I have "street cred" so to speak.

At least I am talking from real experience - - not some self righteous idealism.

I guarantee you NO ONE knows what decision they are going to make until they are in the actual position - facing that decision.

Originally posted by Annee

They had sex - that was their choice. Too bad. Whaa! Whaa! Its all about the money - right?

I just don't understand then. I keep reading the argument over and over that women should have the choice because a child could prevent them from having a happy or successful life. So here the woman doesn't need to be responsible for her actions, but then the man is, and without a chioce.

Am I missing something here?

Since the beginning of time - women have taken the blame and the brunt of anything and everything related to reproduction. Including being barren - not producing a male heir - being cursed if there were any defects - thrown out on the streets as if they were dead for being unwed and pregnant while the man gets congratulated and slapped on the back for being Machismo.

Now women have the control of what they do with their body and whether they want to have a child or not.

And the man doesn't...is that right though

When men start taking responsibility for themselves and ALL men through legislation of Federally mandated DNA paternity testing - - then maybe I'll have some compassion. But not until then.

My dear,

There are two sides to that coin, and it seems you only see one side. I agree there are deadbeat dads that truly hurt a single woman trying to make ends meet, but that is just one aspect to this issue.

First, do you really think those deadbeat dads have much of a life either going from job to job trying to stay ahead of having his paycheck docked for child support? Not a life I would cherish… Also those that do pay they end up not being able to afford their own home. My fried pays $1200 (after taxes) and that means he rents an appartment and drives a crappy car for he still pays much more than that just to have the mother tell the kids everday how bad their dad is.

Second, there are a lot of female sharks out there too. I could tell you horror stories just like you do, but it seems your reality has all men as evil and so they do not deserve a choice in any of this. Well in my reality there are three people involved here, the mom, dad and child.

Maybe that is where our differences on this subject come from.


[edit on 31-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

I say that if a woman can murder a fetus a man should have the option to not support any children he doesn't want. Seems fair to me, Let the child get screwed by both parents, I say. Now if the guy refuses to support the child, he must pay for the abortion if the woman decides to have one. If she wants to raise the child, she has to foot the bill for raising that bastid. Maybe we can bring sterilization into the equation if the guy's one of them dood's who can't keep it in their pants and has 7 babies with 7 different women.

Originally posted by Annee
Wrong. The women I know - including myself - stand by their decision under the circumstances that they made their decision. I have not met one who felt guilt.

So you are saying it is a norm for a woman to not feel guilt in this very serious event and stands by her decision based on the circumstances?

Do you know that the majority of abortions are out of connivance and not necessity or from some impossibility to support?

In my early 20s I helped three women get abortions and I regret it today, they too regretted it 30 years later when the realities of what could have been but didn't sunk in.

Here some nice info...

Info

THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS OF ABORTION


Researchers investigating post-abortion reactions report only one positive emotion: relief. This emotion is understandable, especially in light of the fact that the majority of aborting women report feeling under intense pressure to "get it over with."8,23

Temporary feelings of relief are frequently followed by a period psychiatrists identify as emotional "paralysis," or post-abortion "numbness."18 Like shell-shocked soldiers, these aborted women are unable to express or even feel their own emotions. Their focus is primarily on having survived the ordeal, and they are at least temporarily out of touch with their feelings.

Studies within the first few weeks after the abortion have found that between 40 and 60 percent of women questioned report negative reactions.3,23,35 Within 8 weeks after their abortions, 55% expressed guilt, 44% complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor.3

In one study of 500 aborted women, researchers found that 50 percent expressed negative feelings, and up to 10 percent were classified as having developed "serious psychiatric complications."10

Thirty to fifty percent of aborted women report experiencing sexual dysfunctions, of both short and long duration, beginning immediately after their abortions.23,8 These problems may include one or more of the following: loss of pleasure from intercourse, increased pain, an aversion to sex and/or males in general, or the development of a promiscuous life-style.

Up to 33 percent of aborted women develop an intense longing to become pregnant again in order to "make up" for the lost pregnancy, with 18 percent succeeding within one year of the abortion.23,22,29 Unfortunately, many women who succeed at obtaining their "wanted" replacement pregnancies discover that the same problems which pressured them into having their first abortion still exist, and so they end up feeling "forced" into yet another abortion.

In a study of teenage abortion patients, half suffered a worsening of psychosocial functioning within 7 months after the abortion. The immediate impact appeared to be greatest on the patients who were under 17 years of age and for those with previous psychosocial problems. Symptoms included: self-reproach, depression, social regression, withdrawal, obsession with need to become pregnant again, and hasty marriages. 29

The best available data indicates that on average there is a five to ten year period of denial during which a woman who was traumatized by her abortion will repress her feelings.23,24 During this time, the woman may go to great lengths to avoid people, situations, or events which she associates with her abortion and she may even become vocally defensive of abortion in order to convince others, and herself, that she made the right choice and is satisfied with the outcome. In reality, these women who are subsequently identified as having been severely traumatized, have failed to reach a true state of "closure" with regard to their experiences.

Repressed feelings of any sort can result in psychological and behavioral difficulties which exhibit themselves in other areas of one's life. An increasing number of counselors are reporting that unacknowledged post-abortion distress is the causative factor in many of their female patients, even though their patients have come to them seeking therapy for seemingly unrelated problems.13,17

Other women who would otherwise appear to have been satisfied with their abortion experience, are reported to enter into emotional crisis decades later with the onset of menopause or after their youngest child leaves home.6,21

Numerous researchers have reported that postabortion crises are often precipitated by the anniversary date of the abortion or the unachieved "due date."23,29 These emotional crises may appear to be inexplicable and short-lived, occurring for many years until a connection is finally established during counseling sessions.

A 5 year retrospective study in two Canadian provinces found that 25% of aborted women made visits to psychiatrists as compared to 3% of the control group.5

Women who have undergone post-abortion counseling report over 100 major reactions to abortion. Among the most frequently reported are: depression, loss of self-esteem, self-destructive behavior, sleep disorders, memory loss, sexual dysfunction, chronic problems with relationships, dramatic personality changes, anxiety attacks, guilt and remorse, difficulty grieving, increased tendency toward violence, chronic crying, difficulty concentrating, flashbacks, loss of interest in previously enjoyed activities and people, and difficulty bonding with later children.23,24

Among the most worrisome of these reactions is the increase of self-destructive behavior among aborted women. In a survey of over 100 women who had suffered from post-abortion trauma, fully 80 percent expressed feelings of "self-hatred." In the same study, 49 percent reported drug abuse and 39 percent began to use or increased their use of alcohol. Approximately 14 percent described themselves as having become "addicted" or "alcoholic" after their abortions. In addition, 60 percent reported suicidal ideation, with 28 percent actually attempting suicide, of which half attempted suicide two or more times.24

[edit on 31-1-2009 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

There are two sides to that coin, and it seems you only see one side. I agree there are deadbeat dads that truly hurt a single woman trying to make ends meet, but that is just one aspect to this issue.

I guarantee you at my age 62+ - and all that I've been through in life - - there is no way I am missing any side of any viewpoint.

I realize many men are getting it and taking responsibility - even fighting for sole custody. But until men/fathers fully understand - and make it their mission to step up as a group - through legal means - - putting pressure on all men who have fathered a child - - I'm not on board.

Obviously - at my age - I came from an era of back alley abortions - women disowned by their parents - young women sent to homes and forced to give up their babies - etc. Also the Women's Liberation movement. I was once threatened with firing because I had a run in my nylons and didn't have a spare pair in my desk. Yes it was legal to fire a woman for almost any reason. When it comes to the Rights of Women - - I am a strong advocate and have paid my dues. This does not make me a man hater or radical.

It does make me say: "Men - its your turn"

reply to post by Annee


What does any of that have to do with giving men the same right to abandon a child if they want to?

If they want to be good men and help a woman raise a child, that's their choice. but if they don't want to support a child they created, they don't have to. they should have that choice, just like women have that choice.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Wrong. The women I know - including myself - stand by their decision under the circumstances that they made their decision. I have not met one who felt guilt.

So you are saying it is a norm for a woman to not feel guilt in this very serious event and stands by her decision based on the circumstances?

Do you know that the majority of abortions are out of connivance and not necessity or from some impossibility to support?

In my early 20s I helped three women get abortions and I regret it today, they too regretted it 30 years later when the realities of what could have been but didn't sunk in.

I am open about having an abortion and have counseled others. Some did - some did not. If they came from a close religious family - I told them to trust the love of their family. It all depends on the individual.

Your article does not apply to me - or those I personally know.

I have zero regrets.

By the way - where do you get your statistics? I'm sorry - but I call Shenanigans on those statistics.



[edit on 31-1-2009 by Annee]

Originally posted by ThePiemaker
reply to post by Annee

 

What does any of that have to do with giving men the same right to abandon a child if they want to?

If they want to be good men and help a woman raise a child, that's their choice. but if they don't want to support a child they created, they don't have to. they should have that choice, just like women have that choice.

Why don't you ask the child.

What an unbelievable mind set.

By the way - David C. Reardon - founder of the Elliot Group - where those statistics come from is a Pro-Life activist.

I went to the Elliot Group website. I noticed every subject paragraph began in a "negative/downer". Hardly putting forth an objective position. So I searched further and discovered that the founder was a pro-life activist.

As I've said before. No matter what your viewpoint or belief - - - you can always find someone who agrees with you.

Originally posted by die_another_day
If you think overpopulation is good for the human race and that the life of 1 human is worth everything else on this planet then you are retarded.

.

Just when I thought this thread couldn't be any more depraved, Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you,,

Mr. die_another_day!

If you think overpopulation is good for the human race and that the life of 1 human is worth everything else on this planet then you are retarded.

First, I think it IS retarded to think that we LOSE everything of worth on the planet if we do not kill that one life. Secondly, has it ever occurred to you to consider directing your ad-hom ridicule towards the real reason we HAVE this over population? It is not because we have a society that is too concerned about the planet, NOOOOO, I cannot buy that argument homicide, and ya know why??

Because, anyone that can murder their own child as if it was the pet goldfish, flushing it down the toilet, instead of their own flesh and blood,, I HAVE a real hard time thinking they give a rats ass about anyone but themselves much less the welfare of the planet.

Wow, some people can come up with all kinds of desperate rationale to justify this type of genocide.

What is the difference between an abortion and a miscarriage? Not that big, because most of the time human miscarriages are the fault of the mother

Well besides the unusual difference their is describing a miscarriage where woman say, “I lost the baby", and an abortion where they say words to the effect: "how long is this going to take Doctor, I don't want to miss the woman’s empowerment segment on Oprah, with Suze Orman as guest"

To be more specific in answering your question, one is like dying of natural causes while the other is like me putting a bullet in your head for being dependant, intrinsic and,, well,, she wants to kill it because she just got a new black dress and wanted to wear it to her Highschool reunion next month and oh,, what would they think seeing her with that Gaould symbiote leaching off her resources."

" Just get rid of this creature, she says, in an angry voice, "so I can get back to blaming all men for my whole miserable life."

You know,, pretty much like we see anne and majick acting like




[edit on 1-2-2009 by Aermacchi]

Originally posted by TasteTheMagick
reply to post by Aermacchi

 

Hey, men shouldn't have a say in the matter. They don't have to grow something inside of them for 3/4 of a year. They run out on the women that have their children all the time.

The point of the matter is that it's not their body that has to go through a pregnancy. The right of choice applies ONLY to a woman because all of this is going on in HER uterus.

Yeah well guess what sweet cheeks, I MAKE IT MY BUSINESS and if you don't like it TOO BAD!

You epitomize the repugnance and utter vulgarity that is at the heart of a culture that is so in denial of their own shame and depravity that you can't even hear yourself speak the words that would convict your inner true self that what you are talking about is NOT an "Organism" like some parasitic tapeworm. Albeit true, it may make you sound like a cold calculating killer of innocent children who by virtue of your lack of preparation, responsibility and poor taste in the men you don't even warn before you kill their son or daughter, YOU do this because it is guilty of being dependant on you. But lady, that kid is dependant on its mother outside of the womb the day after it's born just as much as it was inside, so if that is your cheap and self centered excuse to murder a child, YOUR child, Then I make it my business to to tell you what kind of person you are and people like that make me sick.

I see a mother beating her child in a parking lot or see kids going to school with bruises and I call the cops to alert them of the crime they are commiting on a child. Whether they want to hurt them inside or outside of your "precious body" . As long as we as taxpayers have to pay for this BS making all of us complicit in your act of hatred and infanticide, I have every right to voice my disapproval of it and YOU





[edit on 1-2-2009 by Aermacchi]

reply to post by Aermacchi

I see a mother beating her child in a parking lot or see kids going to school with bruises and I call the cops to alert them of the crime they are committing on a child. Whether they want to hurt them inside or outside of your "precious body" . As long as we as taxpayers have to pay for this BS making all of us complicit in your act of hatred and infanticide, I have every right to voice my disapproval of it and YOU

And so you fulfilled your responsibility by calling the cops? Why not meet the mother and find out what her circumstances are? Why is she so frustrated that violence seems the only answer? Why do you so happily condemn any young, unskilled woman to a life of compulsory servitude?

This all too common attitude is disgusting. Those who put it forth - largely from the tv mega-church pulpits - by millionaire hustlers - have conned their adherents. You can fulfill your duty by calling 9-1-1. It is part and parcel of those religionists who really HATE a free woman! Throw in the Pentecostal and Mormon leaders. In the minds of those men - and Phyllis Shaffly type women - the woman is no more than a brood mare! Hey, did not GOD himself curse women in the Garden of Eden?

Women with husbands in residence often fare no better than the unfortunate single parent mother household. How about send in out a nurse and giving every single parent a day off? A little time to recoup. How about some day places where mothers can take children and let them play and talk among themselves to exchange positive ideas and even find out they are not alone in this world.

We as a society could do a lot to make life better for all of us but we are too dam selfish! Everybody wants a tax cut. And this is the world tax cuts brings us! Our society can find $2 b. a week to go 7000 miles and kill people we don’t like but cannot find ONE BUCK to help our own people that is not begrudged by the religious right. Wow! What a GOD they do have. .

May I recommend to the pro-life advocates that we be determined not to let the "choice" brigade continually avoid answering the fundamental question by throwing up one strawman after another. Paternity, poverty, ecology, yadda, yadda, yadda all these things they throw out without once telling us, despite frequent appeals to, why they advocate the destruction of another human life.

So, here again is that question: tell us, how do you objectively (not belief or opinion etc.) justify your advocating the right to destroy another human life?

reply to post by donwhite


Greetings.....Let start by saying God will help those who help themselves and it is same God that tells us the poor will always be with us....This is where the problem starts...It is our misguided sense of what is right and wrong that allows us to pay for iresponsible behavior be it criminal or personal,inthis irresponsible procreation...The bottom line is this we cannot dicern the difference between the poor and the lazy so we pay them all.

Originally posted by donwhite
And so you fulfilled your responsibility by calling the cops? Why not meet the mother and find out what her circumstances are? Why is she so frustrated that violence seems the only answer? Why do you so happily condemn any young, unskilled woman to a life of compulsory servitude?

I don't have any interest in her guy,, people like you and she, require more help than I can offer them. I just think people like this foster a culture of cold blooded baby klllers and I have no sympathy for them.

It's the child she is beating the crap out of or killing before anyone can see it. You know, when it is in the womb. My question is, why do you stomach such a culture

This all too common attitude is disgusting. Those who put it forth - largely from the tv mega-church pulpits - by millionaire hustlers - have conned their adherents. You can fulfill your duty by calling 9-1-1. It is part and parcel of those religionists who really HATE a free woman! Throw in the Pentecostal and Mormon leaders. In the minds of those men - and Phyllis Shaffly type women - the woman is no more than a brood mare! Hey, did not GOD himself curse women in the Garden of Eden?

Hey Genuis, when are you going to get this through your head,,

THIS AIN'T ABOUT WHAT YOU HATE ABOUT THE BIBLE OR ALL YOUR OTHER BIBLIOBIGOTRY and YOUR HATRED FOR CHILDREN

Women with husbands in residence often fare no better than the unfortunate single parent mother household. How about send in out a nurse and giving every single parent a day off? A little time to recoup. How about some day places where mothers can take children and let them play and talk among themselves to exchange positive ideas and even find out they are not alone in this world.

That's all well and good Boy Scout but it ain't easy to do WHEN THE KID IS DEAD BEFORE IT EVER SEES THE LIGHT OF DAY!

We as a society could do a lot to make life better for all of us but we are too dam selfish! Everybody wants a tax cut. And this is the world tax cuts brings us! Our society can find $2 b. a week to go 7000 miles and kill people we don’t like but cannot find ONE BUCK to help our own people that is not begrudged by the religious right. Wow! What a GOD they do have. .

Hey talk to God about it or go to a religion hate thread I don't care, if you can't do anything but spew crap about your issues with those evil bastard christians who seemed to have waterboarded you into such angst aggression then go see a shrink, I don't care to hear you bitch about off topic BS you know nothing about

reply to post by theodorej

Let start by saying God will help those who help themselves and it is same God that tells us the poor will always be with us....This is where the problem starts...It is our misguided sense of what is right and wrong that allows us to pay for iresponsible behavior be it criminal or personal,inthis irresponsible procreation...The bottom line is this we cannot dicern the difference between the poor and the lazy so we pay them all.

Voltaire said it best. "IF there is a God, he takes no mind of human affairs." So God neither helps nor hinders those who help themselves or those who do not. God is neutral. Which reminds me of the only honest prayer I ever heard: "Oh God, if there be one, Save my soul, if I have one."

As for having the poor with us, that is entirely of our own doing. Any society that has a $13 t. annual GDP and still has 40,000,000 of its fellow citizens LOCKED in poverty is not half trying. And only merchants of hate assign the cause to GOD. And therein lies the root of our problem. Those merchants of hate. And the gullible who adhere to them, loving every minute of it. The Name it and Claim it gospel. Or even dumber, those who boast God wants 'me' (and you) to be rich!

And them sitting in a 15,000 seat auditorium, in leather covered softly padded opera seats, a fully automatic HvAC heating and cooling as needed, with a 5,000 watts sound system and a swing-down giant tv screen that would put Sony to shame! A full time music minister and a 500 member chorus decked out like ancient Romans in gold trimmed togas! Their “minister of the gospel” on a $5,000 a week stipend, no co-pay health insurance and full pay retirement. Sweet Jesus! It’s no surprise to me he assuages your guilt and his by reminding: “the poor will always be with us!” Considering his life style, of that I have no doubt.

Again, I say God is neutral. At His best. It is odd to me that we are told by millionaire 'gospel' preachers that "Jesus had no place to lay his head." Am I missing something here?

Garden Grove, CA. Once one of the nation's most popular televangelists, the Rev. Robert H. Schuller is watching his life's work crumble. His son and recent successor, the Rev. Robert A. Schuller, has abruptly resigned as senior pastor of the Crystal Cathedral.

The church is in financial turmoil: It plans to sell more than $65 million worth of its Orange County property to pay off debt. Revenue dropped by nearly $5 million last year, according to a recent letter from the elder Schuller to elite donors. "The final months of 2008 were devastating for our ministry," the 82-year-old pastor wrote.

It's a problem common to personality driven ministries. Most have collapsed or been greatly diminished after their founders left the pulpit or died. Members often tie their donations to the pastor, not the institution, said Nancy Ammerman, a sociologist of religion at Boston University.

Schuller, with a style that blends pop psychology and theology, has a particularly devoted following, she said. Church-based televangelism led by powerful personalities filled TV in the 1980s, but now only a handful of shows remain, Quentin Schultze said. The days of Schuller and Jimmy Swaggart and Oral Roberts are over," he said. "It's amazing to me that the 'Hour of Power' was able to keep going as long as it did."

The elder Schuller, who called his weekly show "America's Television Church," founded his ministry in a drive-in theater after moving to Southern California in 1955. He studied marketing strategies to attract worshippers and preached a feel-good Christianity, describing himself as a "possibility thinker" and spinning his upbeat style into a 10,000-member church and a broadcast watched by millions worldwide.

Schuller Sr.'s daughters and sons-in-law remain involved in the church, some in key roles. But Juan Carlos Ortiz, the interim senior pastor, hopes to appoint a senior pastor with no ties to the Schuller family within two years. Others said they felt betrayed that the Schullers couldn't put God before their family spat. "They have not been forthcoming at all," said John Dewart, an insurance agent from New Jersey who's watched for 30 years. "Why can't a father and son work together for the glory of God? That's my big question."
news.yahoo.com...

[edit on 2/1/2009 by donwhite]

reply to post by Annee


Well; I had an abortion years ago and think of the baby I killed all the time!
One doesn't have to be religious to hate abortion.
catholics have every right to oppose whatever they want even though their middle name is perv shuffle!
Abortion Kills baby humans ...

Originally posted by AmericanDaughter
reply to post by Annee

 

Well; I had an abortion years ago and think of the baby I killed all the time!
One doesn't have to be religious to hate abortion.
catholics have every right to oppose whatever they want even though their middle name is perv shuffle!
Abortion Kills baby humans ...

And that is you. You are one person. People are individuals - they don't group think (at least they shouldn't).

Of course abortion isn't for everyone. But the Right to make that choice is.

I never ever considered I killed a baby - it is not of my thinking. I gave back an energy soul/consciousness to the spirit world - - so that he/she could choose another physical host - - to have a physical experience.

I have never once regretted my decision. The regret I have is/was allowing the circumstances that resulted in pregnancy.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
I just don't understand then. I keep reading the argument over and over that women should have the choice because a child could prevent them from having a happy or successful life. So here the woman doesn't need to be responsible for her actions, but then the man is, and without a chioce.

No. The argument is that a woman should have the choice because the fetus is growing in one of her organs. It has nothing to do with having a happy or successful life. It has everything to do with the fact that being pregnant means 9 months of carrying the child...and then having to spend 18 years raising the child. Many times this is by herself because the man wants to run off or doesn't want to assume responsibility.

He has no choice over what she does with her uterus.

And I never said that women go around telling everyone that they had an abortion. A lot of the time the information gets out because family members like to gossip. Plus, I believe that your statistics on women who feel bad about having abortions are bloated in the favor of a fascist male argument.

There are a lot of women who never feel regret or go through a psychological change...and many that only do it for a little while right after.

Besides, if that's your argument. Many women get post-pardum depression after having a baby.

Everything I'm about to say might have already been said in this 20+ page thread but here it goes:

Originally posted by Mdv2
Perhaps the Vatican and these Christian morons who are openly opposing abortion should allow other people to make decisions for themselves.

Hey there. Christian moron here. One that doesn't like her tax money going to private organizations she is morally opposed to.

I am Christian yet progressive and in fact I haven't met any Atheist who openly criticized me for believing in God...

I invite you to spend an afternoon with me in in the CIR, OC, and BTS Faith forums. Or I could show you some emails I get from atheists through my Christian website. Or we can take a gander through the various news stories to see what atheist activist groups are up to. Or we can forgo all of that and I will join you underneath the rock.

Nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, however, I think it goes too far when people try to force others to share their opinion through legislation.

And I think it goes too far when I am forced to share other's opinion through tax allocations to abortion groups.

This is the only post I'm leaving on this thread.