WORLD: Fanatical Muslims vs. The Free World

reply to post by Cadbury

Actually, Isalm commands that anyone who does not convert to Islam is to be killed. In case you missed it, that's what this thread is about.
And in your words, "a few fanatics" can turn a whole country against a religion and thus start a civil/religious war. I would hate to see that happen to GB.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by Cadbury

 

Keep standing. I hope your not in a crowd when a member of a terrorist cell decides to blow himself and anyone around him to Kingdom Come.

Well so do I, kettlebellysmith. So do I.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
What you don't get, Cadbury, is that the authorities don't tell us everything they know, because it will blow the investigation right out of the water, and possibly get undercover officers killed.

Actually I think that goes without saying. What has that really got to do with what we were discussing earlier? The post of mine you quoted above you have already answered. This is the post you have yet to answer (Sir).

Now you can live in a fantasy world if you choose, but I have found, especially as I have gotten older, that a little paranoia is healthy.

You think I'm not paranoid? I am. I just don't think that "many Muslims in the U.K. and Europe are fanatics waiting to blow something up," which, for the second time; is what our entire argument started over. That was your claim.

Whcih is why I never leave my home unarmed, and always have a weapon within reach when I am at home.
If someone attacks me, or if there is a home invasion, they may kill me, but I will have an honor guard to escort me into hell!

Very touching. I'll bare that in mind.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
reply to post by Cadbury

 

Actually, Isalm commands that anyone who does not convert to Islam is to be killed.

As I said to the fellow in that post of mine you just quoted; I'm not doubting you, but where in Islam is that commanded? Show me.

In case you missed it, that's what this thread is about.

Perhaps so, but not really according to the author of it.

And in your words, "a few fanatics" can turn a whole country against a religion and thus start a civil/religious war. I would hate to see that happen to GB

I'd like to think we're a bit smarter than that.

reply to post by noangels
No one is talking about the muslim family next door. I have worked with several muslim doctors and found them to be friendly, intelligent, thoughtful people who where and are extremely critical of the muslim fanatics that are causing all the trouble.
That is the point of this thread. The fanatics who want to dystroy all religions except theirs and make the world a Muslim caliphate.

reply to post by Cadbury

Cadbury, I'm through wasting time on you. You need to pull out a few history books and study. Mohammed commanded that those who did not convert should die. And any country that was once conquered by Muslims is still considered by them to be Muslim territory. (Spain is a good example.) Don't take my word for it. Look it up. As I said, get some history books, especially those that focus on the middle east. If you open your mind, you might just learn something. And it might just save your life.

cadbury

As I said to the fellow in that post of mine you just quoted; I'm not doubting you, but where in Islam is that commanded? Show me.

The Qur'an:
Sura (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last "revelations" that Muhammad handed down.

Sura (9:5) "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them..." Prayer and charity are among the Five Pillars of Islam, as salat and zakat. See below.

Sura (9:12) - (Continued from above) "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion" This confirms that Muhammad is speaking of conversion to Islam.

Sura (2:193) - "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion be only for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers." The key phrase is to fight until "religion be only for Allah."



From the Hadith:



Muslim (1:33) The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah..."



Muslim (19:4294) - "When you meet your enemies who are polytheists [Christians...], invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them ... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them"



Bukhari (8:387) - "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.'"



Bukhari (53:392) - "While we were in the Mosque, the Prophet came out and said, "Let us go to the Jews" We went out till we reached Bait-ul-Midras. He said to them, "If you embrace Islam, you will be safe. You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land. So, if anyone amongst you owns some property, he is permitted to sell it, otherwise you should know that the Earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle."



Bukhari (2:24) - "Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."



Bukhari (59:643) - "Testify that none has the right to be worshipped except Allah, or else I will chop off your neck!" Words of a military leader that Muhammad sent on an expedition to destroy the local religion in Yemen.



Ibn Ishaq 959 - Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before

hope that helps.All the best iamonkey

[edit on 6/1/09 by iammonkey]

reply to post by iammonkey
Thank you for the help. I am at work and don't have access to my books and research.

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
Cadbury, I'm through wasting time on you.

Could you just answer the questions I asked of you in this post, please? You have totally avoided it and have even had to resort to answering posts of mine you've already answered to hide that fact.

You need to pull out a few history books and study.

And you need to stop making claims such as "many Muslims in the U.K. and Europe are radicals waiting to blow something up," and then fail to produce any sources except lying that the BBC said it. If I need to study the past then you had ought to study your 'facts' for that present falsehood.

Mohammed commanded that those who did not convert should die. And any country that was once conquered by Muslims is still considered by them to be Muslim territory.

Sounds like the old British Empire a bit...

(Spain is a good example.) Don't take my word for it. Look it up. As I said, get some history books, especially those that focus on the middle east. If you open your mind, you might just learn something. And it might just save your life.

Spain is also a good example of another historic conqueror. Why do you think so many people outside Spain speak Spanish, and wasn't the Inquisition Catholic? Should I start carrying a gun to defend myself against a resurgence of fanatical Inquisitors? I know this thread is about Islam but do you see what I'm trying to say, here?


[edit on 6-1-2009 by Cadbury]

reply to post by iammonkey


Thank you for those but what is the source you have copied and pasted them from? There appears to be bias comments inserted after each verse. Did you insert those yourself?

I certainly agree that islam is a false and violent ideology, but maybe another map that should be added to this thread, is a map of Israeli influence in the Western world be it through political, bureaucratic control and manipulation, and economic banking control and manipulation equaling debt based slavery of western nations
America has been a pupet of Israel's elite
The NWO Jews hold Christian Nations in as much disdain as they hold the Islamic Nations in
When the truth of Israel’s crimes against the world are exposed, truly every army of every nation will surround Jerusalem

There will be no peace until one side is annihilated. We can argue over who is right and who is wrong forever and a day, but I think we know that deep down the only thing that will solve this is some apocalyptic event.

Originally posted by VinceP1974
They felt that Government and Religion have no business being mixed and that each would corrupt the other and cause the public confidence to be destroyed in both.

However, they viewed it as a prerequisite that only a specifically Christian people can maintain the Liberty the Constitution was designed to protect. They allowed for each person the freedom of conscience so it was never thought of to be against atheists or people from other faiths as long as teh majority of the populace shared a Christian social and personal ethic.
[edit on 6-1-2009 by VinceP1974]

Wrong. Completely wrong. Most of the "Founding Fathers" were deists, not Christians.

In their own words, refuting yours...

Thomas Jefferson: "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

TJ: "We discover in the gospels a groundwork of vulgar ignorance, of things impossible, of superstition, fanaticism and fabrication ."

TJ: "The priests of the superstition, a bloodthirsty race, are as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore."

John Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

Benjamin Franklin: ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

George Washington kept his beliefs to himself but as Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative."

On and on and on...

reply to post by Cadbury


heres the link . www.thereligionofpeace.com...

I got a copy of the koran years ago to see for myself what was in it. Thay are in there. If in doubt grab a copy and follow up.
all the best iammonkey
P.S No i did't add anything, but keep in mind you can remove the added remarks it wont change what is written in the koran

[edit on 7/1/09 by iammonkey]

reply to post by Skyfloating


As you point out Israel is literally surrounded by enemies. But when those enemies band together too wipe out Israel, Israel won, and won land. Now they cry that Israel stole the land. Funny no? They attacked Israel, lost, and cry that Israel "stole" the land! As for the link too Muslim terrorist attacks, amazing how many are Muslim on Muslim. Reminds me of the Protestant/Catholic wars. Same faith, different branches, mortal enemies. Speaking of Protestant/Catholic wars... www.pyzam.com...

Yet again we have the neo-apologists of this forum bringing out a specific group... I mean its as if muslims have the only fanatical group within their populous... nevermind the mindless fanatical christian right who blindly followed what would be considered one of the most corrupt administrations in US history, nevermind the centuries of european colonial explotation of africa, the americas, australia and yes the middle east... nevermind those fanatic americans who outright supported segregation or those klu klux members who supported the movement of minorities out of these United states just like those of Isreal intend for the Palestinians... or those of arabs who intend for jews... just like the catholics in Ireland...

It appears the neo-conservative apologist would much rather push focus towards a certain group who in part are the way they are as the result of of faulty neo-apologist affairs in middle eastern conflicts during the 80s etc..

After a heavy loss during the elections (the popular vote was close, but a heavy loss nevertheless) it appears much of the "vocal" or "silent" bushies have decided to set up base over here.. on these forums.. and will begin pointing fingers at others groups as a distraction from the mess this administration and the ideology has caused to this nation...

no no you wont hear these folks say a thing about where they were during 2000,2003 or 2004.... no theyll be silent on that as well... theyv been chased with shame on their heads out of the limelight and we find them here... on these forums.. singling out groups and stereotyping at the moment... its a darn shame.

It is frustrating when a poster makes a fantastic thread, but the premise is attacked by the usual suspects. I'm not surprised to read the words "Israel, UK and America.."

One may disagree with the Israeli government, but at least an alternative can be voted in democratically. Syria is a dictatorship, Iranian politicians are subjected for selection -to a public ballot- by the Religious Council and Saudi Arabia is an absolute Monarch. You cannot object to the facts: Israeli politician's are selected by an electoral system that is more representative than the American or British module.

It is extremely facetious to mention Guantanamo Bay in this scenario, the American population voted for a candidate who promised to close the bay and end torture. Can the people of Saudi Arabia vote to abolish public executions? No. Certain reformers were banned in Iran for defying the Council with liberal attitudes.

In the free world, you have an opposition that can realistically be elected into office and change the status quo. Fanatical Islam or any fundamentalist branch of a religious sect does not, by principal, allow an opposition to exist. This is what the free world is about - you have the constitutional right to oppose the government.

The question, honestly, is this: Are you for democracy or not?

Originally posted by southern_Guardian
Yet again we have the neo-apologists of this forum bringing out a specific group... I mean its as if muslims have the only fanatical group within their populous... nevermind the mindless fanatical christian right who blindly followed what would be considered one of the most corrupt administrations in US history, nevermind the centuries of european colonial explotation of africa, the americas, australia and yes the middle east... nevermind those fanatic americans who outright supported segregation or those klu klux members who supported the movement of minorities out of these United states just like those of Isreal intend for the Palestinians... or those of arabs who intend for jews... just like the catholics in Ireland...

NONSENSE.

Ive denounced right-wing Christianity elsewhere. Ive also denounced Ku Klux Klan and the U.S. military bullying ELSEWHERE

The reason I abandoned this thread is because people are unable to focus on one specific topic (in this case: extreme Islam) without bringing up the holocaust, 9/11, Christians, Bush....

...as if these bads would justify this bad.

Originally posted by GamerGal


As you point out Israel is literally surrounded by enemies. But when those enemies band together too wipe out Israel, Israel won, and won land. Now they cry that Israel stole the land. Funny no? They attacked Israel, lost, and cry that Israel "stole" the land!

Young lady the Arab/Israeli war was in 1948, one year after the U.N partition plan carved up Palestine. They'd already lost the land, but they lost even more after the war. And look at Palestine now:

reply to post by Cadbury


I think she is referring to the Six Day War.

Sinai Peninsula was returned to Egyptian Administration. However, the Golan Heights will be restored to Syrian territory after the Israeli's signalled a willingness to restore the status quo. Not likely until next year.

With the pending creation of a Palestinian state, Gaza and the West Bank, all territory gained from the Six Day War will officially be returned.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by infinite]