Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Firstly, never did I say that we were doing it on our own. My pride and my identity rest in G.d. With out Him, I have and am nothing. It would be very funny to say that one could do it on our own since the breath of Life could not exist without Him.

I am not anti christ, but to focus on another man and worship that man as G.d is contrary to not only what the Hebrew Scriptures teach, but it is contradictory to the message of Jesus.

You can be enlightened BY Jesus' message, but only once you understand what it is your are being enlightened to.

However, anyone has the right to place their hope outside of G.d and onto an image. I am not trying to snag that right from you. I am just saying that it is not a message based on the Hebrew Scriptures. It came from elsewhere and I am just encouraging all to find out where the message of Paul came from.

The Hebrew Scriptures never condoned worshiping a man as G.d. Who did?

OK, so it appears the concern is that one could think they are worshiping Christ while only worshipping an image or a delusion of one's own making....or possibly following someone else's delusion or image of God.

Is that it?

reply to post by Simplynoone

Maybe you need to read Galations

The problem is that; you are using the Bible. To understand the Bible and how God intended us to understand him, we need to take into account all the new information he is exposing, to see if we need to be educated beyond what we know, and if we are wrong in our thinking. This involves an element of humility. Are you willing to risk the truth for familiarity?

Man wrote the Bible and man is stagnant, but God is not. We need to be open to new insights without regulatory standards being put on them, in order to grow spiritually. Unfortunately, religion places regulations on new thoughts.

Keep in mind too, that Paul did not write some of the books that were attributed to him in the NT. Also, he used secretaries to write much of his information which is leading many to think they may not have been his words.

Let me use an analogy here:

God is behind science. We can probably agree that information is growing daily in the scientific community. Think of medical research. How much is being learned daily? If God has equipped man with the ability to keep learning and discovering in those fields, would the same not be true of our spiritual understandings?

I want to ask you: do you feel that all answers about God and his purposes are disclosed in the 66 books of the Bible? Or do you think that he may have much more information that exceeds the Bible, in his personality, will, and information he would like his followers to have? Or is he limiting himself, and our connection to him, via only the Bible and very limited religion?

Or, is it just possible that he has seen fit to use ones who transcend the Bible, and religion, and are useful to him in teaching others his will, so as to pass down information, or enlightenment, to those who want to experience it, and are ready for it?

Originally posted by John Matrix
OK, so it appears the concern is that one could think they are worshiping Christ while only worshipping an image or a delusion of one's own making....or possibly following someone else's delusion or image of God.

Is that it?

My point in starting this thread is to say that what Paul taught is not the message of the Tanakh. It is its own seperate identity that uses bits and pieces of the Tanakh to try and support it. The Hebrew Scriptures contain a path to Life and that is what Jesus was trying to enlighten the Jewish people to; that Life so that they in turn could light the world as was intended. Paul, being rebellious, took the message prematurely and the people, being pagan, worshiped Jesus as G.d.

Jesus' enlightenment was never meant to be sold to the world as it was. He wanted the Jewish people to understand so that they in turn could help others understand. Jesus never intended that the world should all know of his individual presence on this earth.

That was my point. Paul's message is contradictory to what the Hebrew Scriptures say..



[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by John Matrix
The idea that one can do this on their OWN is contrary to the Scripture and would only lead man further from God due to PRIDE and a false belief in the power of "self" to effect his own salvation. God chose us first, we did not choose him first. We all have a seed of eternity in us, but no one but Christ can raise that seed from it's lifleless state to become a regenerate Spirit in us. Far be it from God to leave it to man that man might boast of his success; becoming even more proud and errogant than he was before!! We cannot boast of anything. God would not have it otherwise. We place our faith in those virtues which contitute Christ: Humilty, Meekness, Patience, Forgiveness, Love for God and our fellow man.

I'd say the idea that you are not good enough, or able to do these things, so why even try is what leads you further from God. Those who just say - oh, I can't better myself, I'll just believe in this idol and all will be ok.

But yet this is NOT what Jesus says. This is what Paul says. Paul says you are NOT good enough. Jesus says - and GREATER things than this will YOU DO. Paul says to submit to authority. Jesus says you are the authority.

It has nothing to do with not being able to better yourself, it has to do with recognizing it in yourself to begin with. It is about realizing the errors in what you do, so that you can fix them. And the example on how to fix your errors is what Jesus provides for you. And by following his example and doing as he says - THAT is how you are saved.

Those who think otherwise buy the lie, the easy way out. Despite Jesus telling you point blank multiple times that is not the case. What does he tell the rich man? And you think he is going to play favorites with you, or tell you otherwise?

What we are being enlightened to is the Spirit of Love which is God because Love is the Christ of God, and wherever it comes, it comes as the Blessing and Happiness of every natural Life, as the Restorer of every lost Perfection, a Redeemer from all Evil, a Fulfiller of all Righteousness, and a Peace of God which passeth all Understanding, without which one cannot understand futility of all rites, rituals, and practices, or what it is like to live by the Spirit and be free from the Law.

And this is just a bunch of words with no real meaning behind them. Sounds like a bunch of marketing for someone trying to SELL something.

What you are enlightened to is the truth(Jesus is symbolic of the truth). And ONLY by the TRUTH will you go to the father. And when you have the truth, then you will be doing as Jesus did, and following his example, because he is someone who knew and had that truth.

It is amazing how many people can look at the story of Jesus and then think it was all just a sacrifice like Jesus is an animal.

AH! Gandhi did much the same thing with his people as Jesus was meant to do with his people. He enlightened HIS people in a way that THEY could understand. He was their prophet, not the worlds.

The difference with Jesus' enlightenment to the Jewish people is that he was to enlighten a collective prophet (Israel) which was in turn, to enlighten the world as a whole.

But, had this happened, the powers that want to be could not be.

A prophet will fully be understood by his own people. Because most don't have the mindset of Jesus' fellow Jews (the ones told "*YOU* will be the light of the world), they don't understand the enlightenment properly. It was meant for them so that as a whole, they could enlighten the world. Just... someone had to get a head of the game.

Ultimately though, it obviously was meant to be.... it was to seperate the wheat from the chaffe. I do believe that some of you get what I am saying on a spiritual level, but because you do not want to understand it from a physical level (which IS a mirror of the spiritual)... you call the physical old.... you will mislead others.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by John Matrix
OK, so it appears the concern is that one could think they are worshiping Christ while only worshipping an image or a delusion of one's own making....or possibly following someone else's delusion or image of God.

Is that it?

My point in starting this thread is to say that what Paul taught is not the message of the Tanakh. It is its own seperate identity that uses bits and pieces of the Tanakh to try and support it. The Hebrew Scriptures contain a path to Life and that is what Jesus was trying to enlighten the Jewish people to; that Life so that they in turn could light the world as was intended. Paul, being rebellious, took the message prematurely and the people, being pagan, worshiped Jesus as G.d.

Jesus' enlightenment was never meant to be sold to the world as it was. He wanted the Jewish people to understand so that they in turn could help others understand. Jesus never intended that the world should all know of his individual presence on this earth.

That was my point. Paul's message is contradictory to what the Hebrew Scriptures say..
[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

You say your not Antchrist but this post certainly says that you are ...and not only that but downright blasphemous along with accusing a brother falsely (Paul ) .... ....especially when you say Jesus paid the price for his own self not for anyone else (a few posts back) ......thats so contrary to scripture that I dont even know what to say from here ..except LORD Forgive them for they know not what they do .......

Originally posted by John Matrix
OK, so it appears the concern is that one could think they are worshiping Christ while only worshipping an image or a delusion of one's own making....or possibly following someone else's delusion or image of God.

Is that it?

Is it not? Does Jesus not specifically warn of such things? About those who will call out his name and he will say he knows them not, because they work in sin. These people will say - oh look at the wonderful works we've done in your name, the demons we've killed and so on. And yet, Jesus rejects them. Because they followed the broad path, not the narrow path.

Over and over Jesus specifically says - walk the path. Do these things. This is how you act. This is how God acts as man. Follow my example. People come to him, he says - go walk the path, go do this.

And somehow, all that gets changed into "believe in Jesus"? Believe in what? What does that mean? Does it mean believe in the entity of Jesus? Does it mean to believe Jesus is God? What does it actually mean?

Jesus says if you actually believe you will walk the path. The church just sells believe in Jesus, and get eternal life. All they do is sell the symbolism, you support them and give them cash, and they will tell you all about how believing in Jesus saves you. But then instead of showing people how to walk the path, they point fingers at everyone else as being the root of the evil, and in the process get people to follow a path that is broad and not the path of Jesus.

When you view Jesus as a sacrifice for your sins, meaning that just to believe in his entity as God and by doing this you are saved of your sins, then you are viewing Jesus as nothing more than a sacrifice in the same way a goat or animal is sacrificed. Only Satan see's the death as a sacrifice. Because he see's it as a sacrifice of the truth, so that the lie can live. Proof is in the way the leaders conspired against Jesus because he threatened their power.

Personally, I find the notion to be quite silly myself. As if to say God would need to sacrifice Jesus to forgive you. As if God couldn't just forgive you on his own. NO! That is a lie. Jesus had to come to show and give people the EXAMPLE so they could understand and see the good. He did this even though he knew the evil in this world would kill him, so that if you believed in him and the truth, hopefully you would see the truth and save yourself by his example.

And yet, people wear the cross around their neck as a symbol of sacrifice. People celebrate the death of Jesus, rather than the life of Jesus. The death of truth so that the lie could live. It is in the life of Jesus that you can find your salvation, and continuance of the lie is what you find in his death. Of course, there is a reason he did what he did, and that was the same reason he says not to fear those who can only kill the body. His entire life, including his death was an example for you.

reply to post by justamomma


reply to post by justamomma

*teasing*

No, I do not assume about L.I.B. I *know* you... meaning I recognize you. If that makes sense.

LOL, yes, I know what you mean.

Hmmm.... I have not stated that gentiles should follow the Laws of the old covenent.

That was the impression that was given. That Paul taught against the Mosaic Law, when in fact he was only upholding what any rabbi of today would say.

Later into the thread, you said your intent was to show that Jesus is not God... that can be done without slandering Paul. You see, I wouldn't want you, or badmedia, or simplynoone, well... anyone, that is "known" to be slandered.

That is MY reasoning for studying and converting to Judaism.

Truly, I support you in this. That is what has been laid on your heart... then that is what you must follow.

To worship Jesus as G.d and to teach others to do so is breaking the Law of G.d.

It really seems so simple a concept to grasp onto.

It is a simple concept to grasp. No one has yet proven to me that Paul taught Jesus is God.

the deception of "Paul"

Dang, and you were doing so well until you brought this up! Why can you not see that it is the church, the same hypocrisy that Jesus spoke against, is what the church does... withhold the truth and teaches lies to those who have not yet investigated for themselves.

I commiserate entirely with badmedia and what he has faced, but rather than blame Paul I searched for more understanding. The latter action is far more difficult, but rewarding.

Slandering any of God's chosen is not going to make ears willing to listen. It may get converts who wish to have someone to blame and hate though... neither of which is edifying for either party involved. It just shows the degree of ignorance that is held to... and I say that as nicely as I can.

Do you not see that those who are against Paul are also caught in the clutches of pride and superiority? The very ones who could help those who are blindsided (by the church) are the ones who look down on these individuals... like one poster posted earlier... called them lemmings. Where's the compassion, the willingness to guide? No, instead we have laughing, name calling and pointing fingers ... that which is soooo much easier. And, it's contempt. Is that reflecting God's love?

You say you recognize me. I say I recognize Paul and clearly see that Paul had been instructed into the mysteries and that he was also crucified into Christ. If you recognize me, why won't you give actually understanding Paul a chance... it is written that he is hard to understand.

If this undertaking of understanding Paul is not wanted to be done, or is too difficult to accomplish... at least for the love of God, do not slander another human just because he is not understood.

How many here who actually know God are not understood by those who don't? Just about everyone of them. Our struggle is not with those who don't, it is with ignorance. Knowledge combats ignorance, not pointing fingers.

If something must be blamed, blame the church and it's keep them stupid theology for within those walls are the same brood of vipers that Jesus faced, which keep people from coming to know the truth.

I have had this reply written for a couple hours now... had dinner, etc.

Contemplated letting this matter go. Came back and saw this comment: Jesus' enlightenment was never meant to be sold to the world as it was. He wanted the Jewish people to understand so that they in turn could help others understand. Jesus never intended that the world should all know of his individual presence on this earth.

And with the thought: "that comment reveals fighting against what IS", I shall let this matter go not wishing to engage such futility.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by John Matrix
OK, so it appears the concern is that one could think they are worshiping Christ while only worshipping an image or a delusion of one's own making....or possibly following someone Else's delusion or image of God.

Is that it?

Is it not? Does Jesus not specifically warn of such things? About those who will call out his name and he will say he knows them not, because they work in sin. These people will say - oh look at the wonderful works we've done in your name, the demons we've killed and so on. And yet, Jesus rejects them. Because they followed the broad path, not the narrow path.

Yes, but I think the question is, "how does one know that they following the right Christ and not simply a Christ of their own making?"

For me, the escape from this is to follow the Christ who represents the incorruptible Divine Nature of God and who also makes us partakers of the Divine Nature.

Learn whatever you will from Men and Books, or even from Christ Himself, besides, or without these Virtues, and you are only a poor Wanderer in a barren Wilderness, where no Water of Life is to be found. For Christ is nowhere, but in these Virtues, and where they are, there is He in his own Kingdom. From Morning to Night, let this be the Christ that you follow, and then you will fully escape all the religious Delusions that are in the World, and what is more, all the Delusions of your own selfish Heart.

For one to desire to have his mind and heart governed by Humility, Meekness, Patience, and Love for God, is truly coming to God through Christ; and when these Tempers live and abide in you, as the Spirit and Aim of your Life, then Christ is in you of a Truth, and the Life that you then lead, is not yours, but it is Christ that lives in you. For this is following Christ with all your Power: You cannot possibly make more Haste after Him, you have no other Way of walking as he walked, no other Way of being like Him, of truly believing in him, of showing your Trust in him, and Dependence upon him, but by wholly giving up yourself to That, which He was, viz., to Humility, Meekness, Patience, and Love for God.

If anyone distrust this simple precept, hear the Words of Christ himself. "Learn of me," says He, "for I am meek and lowly of Heart, and ye shall find Rest unto your Souls." Here you have the plain Truth in two parts, First, That to be given up to, or stand in a Desire of, Humility, Meekness, Patience, and Love of God, is strictly the same Thing, as to learn of Christ, or to have Faith in Him. Secondly, That this is the one simple, short, and infallible Way to overcome, or be delivered from all the Malignity and Burden of Self expressed in these Words, "and ye shall find Rest unto your Souls."

Many scriptures come to mind that support this:

"In your Patience, you possess your souls"

"be therefore imitators of Christ"

"Put on a heart of Kindness, Compassion, Humility, and Patience, forbearing with one another and forgiving one another in Love".

"Put off the old man and put on the new man Created in the image of Christ and God"

"Be imitators of those who through Faith and Patience inherit the promise"

Clearly we are to imitate Christ, and there is no other way in scripture than to imitate his Divine Character until the day dawns and the Day Star rises in your hearts.

The Day Star referred to in 2 Peter 1:19 is quite possibly the Holy Spirit coming to seal your faith and remove all doubts concerning your inheritence and entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Originally posted by badmedia
But yet this is NOT what Jesus says. This is what Paul says. Paul says you are NOT good enough. Jesus says - and GREATER things than this will YOU DO. Paul says to submit to authority. Jesus says you are the authority.

It has nothing to do with not being able to better yourself, it has to do with recognizing it in yourself to begin with. It is about realizing the errors in what you do, so that you can fix them. And the example on how to fix your errors is what Jesus provides for you. And by following his example and doing as he says - THAT is how you are saved.

Those who think otherwise buy the lie, the easy way out. Despite Jesus telling you point blank multiple times that is not the case. What does he tell the rich man? And you think he is going to play favorites with you, or tell you otherwise?

What we are being enlightened to is the Spirit of Love which is God because Love is the Christ of God, and wherever it comes, it comes as the Blessing and Happiness of every natural Life, as the Restorer of every lost Perfection, a Redeemer from all Evil, a Fulfiller of all Righteousness, and a Peace of God which passeth all Understanding, without which one cannot understand futility of all rites, rituals, and practices, or what it is like to live by the Spirit and be free from the Law.

What you are enlightened to is the truth(Jesus is symbolic of the truth). And ONLY by the TRUTH will you go to the father. And when you have the truth, then you will be doing as Jesus did, and following his example, because he is someone who knew and had that truth.

It is amazing how many people can look at the story of Jesus and then think it was all just a sacrifice like Jesus is an animal.

You are looking at scripture from a pre salvation viewpoint in your first statements above. Those are all pre salvation messages to show mankind and the Jews the folley and vanity of all self effort in trying to please God by keeping the law or engaging in any good acts.

But after one is born again, one needs to grow, and one grows by putting on the Divine Nature of Christ and seeking to have his mind and heart governed by the Spirit of Love. In doing this the new life of the Spirit is trained, fed, and grows to maturity. When we are born again we CAN DO things to effect our spiritual growth or prevent it because we still have free will. That is why we have all the scriptures that tell us to "put on the new man" , "put off the old man" and "imitate" etc. (See my other post for more on this)

I ask how anything I stated is not Truth(see your statement above in which you seem to accuse me of saying things that are not true)?


This is a message to believers(people already saved) from Peter in 2 Peter 1:2 to 15.

3. His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. 13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body, [8] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.





[edit on 8-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You say your not Antchrist but this post certainly says that you are ...and not only that but downright blasphemous along with accusing a brother falsely (Paul ) .... ....especially when you say Jesus paid the price for his own self not for anyone else (a few posts back) ......thats so contrary to scripture that I dont even know what to say from here ..except LORD Forgive them for they know not what they do .......

That's contrary to YOUR scripture!! that is NOT contrary to the Hebrew Scripture. Sorry to say, but NEVER is the concept of one man dying for the sins of the world as a sacrifice spoken of in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is so OPPOSITE to the whole concept of the Hebrew sacrificial laws it is almost laughable.

The Passover lamb sacrifice:

This was not a communal sacrifice. Each family was responsible to provide and sacrifice their own lamb.

The picture that was drawn up by a prophet of this act was drawn up in Isaiah. But he wasn't prophecying to the world.

Isaiah 1: 1 tells us clearly that this is NOT a vision to the world. "The vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem"

Passover lamb was in actuality many lambs which were NOT atonement sacrifices, but the blood was used to identify them. Thus, at best, Jesus' blood was merely to identify himself to the Jewish people that he *was* the messiah THEY had been promised (aka enlightment).

But to say that he was the sacrificial lamb for the atonement of the sins of the world shows your GREAT ignorance of Jewish sacrificial rites.


What you want is a Scape goat

The closest OT representation of what Christianity teaches about Jesus can be found in Lev 16 where all the sins of all the people are atoned for by the use of a scapegoat.

This is called The Day of Atonement. The instructions given in Lev 16 speak for themselves:

Lev 16:20-22
And when he(Aaron) hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat:
And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

The Lev 16:30-34 instructions conclude with:
For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

This Day of Atonement pays for the sins of all the community, is to be performed by Levitical priests, is to be done each year, and the scapegoat is not killed but released in the desert.

Although this sacrifice most closely fits the description of the type of atonement Jesus supposedly accomplished for the sins of mankind, Jesus failed to meet these requirements as he was not a goat, was not released alive in the desert, and was not ritualized by a Levitical priest. In summary, Jesus failed in all respects to fulfill the law as proper scape goat for the sins of anyone.



[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

reply to post by justamomma


There are many prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament, but if you started this thread to assert your belief, or rather disbelief, in Christ as the lamb of God and Bruiser of the Serpent's Head; rather than begin a spiritual journey where you are open to Spiritual truth, then I have spend hours in vain today, because in no way do I wish to enter a discussion with someone who has become crystallized in their belief in a teaching that ignores the complete work of Christ on the Cross and his ascension into Heaven.



[edit on 8-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You say your not Antchrist but this post certainly says that you are ...and not only that but downright blasphemous along with accusing a brother falsely (Paul ) .... ....especially when you say Jesus paid the price for his own self not for anyone else (a few posts back) ......thats so contrary to scripture that I dont even know what to say from here ..except LORD Forgive them for they know not what they do .......

Cont.

Of course, Paul does allude to the scape goat to cover his tracks. He deceives you because HE knows the practices of the Jewish sacrificial rites and you don't.

If you worship an image and if you believe that Jesus is G.d and if you believe that his sacrifice was an atonement of sin for the world, than you fail to understand the heart of G.d.

G.d made it a POINT to be clear that he would never use a human sacrifice when he sent the ram to Abraham. That was in essence saying, DO NOT BE DECEIVED!!!!


Ironically, this particular passage seems rather prophetic of the christian church...

Isa 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:




[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by justamomma

 

There are many prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament, but if you started this thread to assert your belief, or rather disbelief, in Christ as the lamb of God and Bruiser of the Serpent's Head; rather than begin a spiritual journey where you are open to Spiritual truth, then I have spend hours in vain today, because in no way do I wish to enter a discussion with someone who has become crystallized in their belief in a teaching that ignores the complete work of Christ on the Cross and his ascension into Heaven.



[edit on 8-1-2009 by John Matrix]

There are also many that are being misconstrued because people refuse to understand the Scriptures as they were given. You would rather take the word of a man than to see this brilliant story in the Light it was given.

ALL of the Hebrew Scriptures were given in such a way so that we would have no excuse to be deceived.

You are filtering the Old Testament through the New Testament rather than the other way around; and that is the grave error that is being made.

Originally posted by John Matrix
You are looking at scripture from a pre salvation viewpoint in your first statements above. Those are all pre salvation messages to show mankind and the Jews the folley and vanity of all self effort in trying to please God by keeping the law or engaging in any good acts.

Actually, I did not get my teachings from the scripture. I had a vision after seeking the truth, and then I was taught the truth. After I had learned the truth, I seen quotes from Jesus and I knew immediately that he spoke the truth. But of course, the way I seen the truth is/was not how the church presents it. I am not a man of faith in image. I see all image as lies. I was shown that images, idols and symbolism is for the blind, and is what blinds people. Where as you may take Jesus as truth because scripture says so, I say Jesus is truth because he spoke the same truth I learned from the father. I do not believe Jesus is truth, I know Jesus is truth. My faith is in that what I know is true is true.

But after one is born again, one needs to grow, and one grows by putting on the Divine Nature of Christ and seeking to have his mind and heart governed by the Spirit of Love. In doing this the new life of the Spirit is trained, fed, and grows to maturity. When we are born again we CAN DO things to effect our spiritual growth or prevent it because we still have free will. That is why we have all the scriptures that tell us to "put on the new man" , "put off the old man" and "imitate" etc. (See my other post for more on this)

This is a lie. You do not seek your mind and heart to be "governed", you seek for truth. Once you know the truth then you will automatically govern yourself. AKA, save yourself. God's will is for you to have free will. That is why you were given it in the first place. When I gave my will to god, I didn't get instructions back, I got knowledge and understanding back. So that I could decide and see for myself. The truth sets you free, it does not govern you.

When you see the real truth, the commandments are not "laws" you must do or face punishment, they are things you understand why they are there and things you want to follow. They are not there just because God says so, they are not there for Gods benefit, they are there as good advice for your own benefit. You are going to reap what you have sown either way, it's always your choice.

I ask how anything I stated is not Truth(see your statement above in which you seem to accuse me of saying things that are not true)?

Half the truth is often the greatest lie. Half the truth is what causes wars. Half the truth is what people who manipulate give you. To say Jesus is your savior is not in itself a lie. But it is a lie because it fails to mention the part where you have to walk the path. And that is how it is sold.

You can use words like love, grace and so on all you want, and your previous post was loaded with it. These words are in themselves meaningless. The things that do have meaning are the actions and understandings themselves. Anyone can say love over and over, but the only true love is that which is shown through actions. While you yourself may have true meaning behind these words, it's extremely hard to tell and leaves alot up for personal interpretation.

Like, when I say the word love, then you associate that word with your experience of what love is. And when you say it to me, then I associate it with what my experience of love is, and that goes for everyone. So when you use words like that, I don't know what you are exactly trying to get across. We can assume these things are the same, and maybe they are. But it is impossible for either of us to know the others experience of it.

What you consider to be respectful for example, I probably think is disrespectful. Some people think it is respectful to not speak badly about a war because of the troops. I personally think it is disrespectful not to speak up for such things. Some people think it is respectful to wave a flag on memorial day. I think it is respectful to stand up for the freedoms and such they did, and disrespectful to wave the flag while giving away the things they died for. Some people think it is respectful of Jesus to wear a cross, and to praise him. I think those things are disrespectful. Some people think it is respectful not to correct someone, I think it is disrespectful - it's as if to say, I didn't think you could handle being corrected. etc. You might think it is disrespectful of me to speak out against Paul and the church, and I think it would disrespectful of me not too. So when you say these kinds of words, they don't have real meaning, it's really a matter of what the person thinks it means.

Originally posted by John Matrix
There are many prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament, but if you started this thread to assert your belief, or rather disbelief, in Christ as the lamb of God and Bruiser of the Serpent's Head; rather than begin a spiritual journey where you are open to Spiritual truth, then I have spend hours in vain today, because in no way do I wish to enter a discussion with someone who has become crystallized in their belief in a teaching that ignores the complete work of Christ on the Cross and his ascension into Heaven.

And because of prophecy you take it as authority? What you prove here is that you take authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. Who cares if it was in the prophecy or not, that isn't why Jesus is truth. As the new testament came after the old testament, to make prophecies fit all you'd have to do is write them in. It's like writing a prophecy in the first book of Harry Potter, and then fulfilling it in the 2nd.

Not that they are false, or that I have anything against them. I plain out don't know, and if it was prophecy or not is beside the point for me. I know Jesus spoke the truth because I seen him saying the truth I learned. When you actually understand the truth, you don't need to point out prophecy or credibility or need a way of building up authority, the truth stands on it's own and you will be able to speak the truth on your own.

All you speak is symbolism. Blind symbolism. Where is the meaning and understanding?

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by justamomma

 

There are many prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament, but if you started this thread to assert your belief, or rather disbelief, in Christ as the lamb of God and Bruiser of the Serpent's Head; rather than begin a spiritual journey where you are open to Spiritual truth, then I have spend hours in vain today, because in no way do I wish to enter a discussion with someone who has become crystallized in their belief in a teaching that ignores the complete work of Christ on the Cross and his ascension into Heaven.



[edit on 8-1-2009 by John Matrix]

There are also many that are being misconstrued because people refuse to understand the Scriptures as they were given. You would rather take the word of a man than to see this brilliant story in the Light it was given.

ALL of the Hebrew Scriptures were given in such a way so that we would have no excuse to be deceived.

You are filtering the Old Testament through the New Testament rather than the other way around; and that is the grave error that is being made.

Assumptions assumptions and more assumptions.

Question:
Are you in a fallen state?
If no, what has raised your fallen spirit back to life?
If yes, how will your spirit be raised to life?



[edit on 8-1-2009 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by badmedia
This is a lie. You do not seek your mind and heart to be "governed", you seek for truth. Once you know the truth then you will automatically govern yourself.

Very true! Thus the seperation of the wheat from the tares. If you seek for truth IN ITS FULLNESS, you will find the truth.

When you seek anything vain, you will find the truth can be very deceiving as well.

As I see it, everything I go through is an experience to teach me a lesson. When you seek atonement, you fail to seek the lesson (life). Sacrifice = death (lack of knowledge). Understanding = Life (knowledge)



[edit on 8-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by John Matrix
There are many prophecies concerning Christ in the Old Testament, but if you started this thread to assert your belief, or rather disbelief, in Christ as the lamb of God and Bruiser of the Serpent's Head; rather than begin a spiritual journey where you are open to Spiritual truth, then I have spend hours in vain today, because in no way do I wish to enter a discussion with someone who has become crystallized in their belief in a teaching that ignores the complete work of Christ on the Cross and his ascension into Heaven.

And because of prophecy you take it as authority? What you prove here is that you take authority as truth, rather than truth as authority. Who cares if it was in the prophecy or not, that isn't why Jesus is truth. As the new testament came after the old testament, to make prophecies fit all you'd have to do is write them in. It's like writing a prophecy in the first book of Harry Potter, and then fulfilling it in the 2nd.

Prophecy fullfilled is Truth.

reply to post by John Matrix


Assumptions are only made when one does not understand. I have failed to give you assumptions. I have given you fact. I know these are fact because I am studying these things from the Source.. not from what a man tells me.

If you wanted to learn Latin, why would you go to someone who speaks Spanish and not Latin to learn?