Christians need to face the facts!

reply to post by pieman


I would like you to show me in scripture where it states these were mass groups and what exactly the "miracle" was (also by mass group I mean over a thousand people; a wedding is not a massgroup)... Because all of my research states small groups aka his apostles which went with him everywhere were some of the only men to see any of these "miracles". Also could you show me the documentation that states these "miracles" as being fact, and no I don't mean the Bible. Otherwise your just trying to spin the oldest Comic Book as a truth, especially when the Bible promotes "Faith" and never trys to be and honest work.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Lokey13]

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Lokey13]

Is very sad to see how people try by all means to make a mockery of what christianity is all about;for some reason other believes are ok but not jesus.
You guys have another thing coming; this world is in enought pain already for the selfinesh of men ; who want to please all their desires without the obsulote care of others and thats what jesus come in front and tell us that love for one another is the only way to happines , and to be wise is better than to be fool and fool is what this world has become for trying the solve their problems without God.

"Thanks for helping. I thought it was a good thread, however sometimes when the creature of human needs to face the "truth" well documented, they resist by lowering themselves down to the animalistic nature.

The point of this thread isn't to mock christianity, but to strenghten the factual matters of the religion through association of KNOWNS.

Christianity wouldn't be such a retarded religion if it delt in more facts and less fiction. "

So you are an atheist then? I suppose you are Muslim then? There is NO religion that can be associated with KNOWNS. That's why it is called FAITH, so either you don't belive in God or any religion or you are an atheist....or a hypocrite who falls into the same "retarded religion" category you are preaching against. Either way your beliefs and way of thinking need serious thought and reevaluation, although I can bet from your pretentious way of writing and speaking that you think you are scholarly and objective. Find Jesus and get a life.

reply to post by Simplynoone


How can you see the world as real, if the self that is determining it to be real is intangible?

sorry for the one liner

[edit on 9-12-2008 by precociousmonkey]

reply to post by Lokey13

lukey, seriously, you want multiple sources for an event that happened spontaneously 2000 years ago at a time when most people couldn't read or write.

what are you after exactly, no newspapers, no video, no photography. if the writen word is not good enough, what is?

as regard your opinion that a mass amounts to at least 1000 people, in the year 1 ad the world population is estimated to have been 200 to 300 million, people and the world population now is around 6.6 billion, that would leave a mass of people in 1ad at about 45 or 46 people if 1000 is now a mass, by proportion.

reply to post by pieman


So you admit with the amount of people that "claim" to have seen a "miracle" would be both illerate and unschooled so therefor easier to manipulate. So these "witnesses" your basing all of this written word on were incompitent, so therefor this written word shouldn't even be a book for an entire religion to base there lives upon because the people at the time were and I'm only qouting you, well stupid. So your telling me the entire basis of the Bible should be in question because of the intelligence at that time, is that what your getting at? Because it seems like you clearly just stated that the Bible cannot be verified and should be seen as a work of fiction because the people at the time lacked all credibility.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Lokey13]

reply to post by Lokey13


i didn't even suggest anyone was stupid. if you think reading and writing are indicative of intelligence thats your issue, don't push your opinion on me.

reading and writing were a professional skill at the time, it's relevance to the intelligence of the people in the crowd is negligible. in fact, i would assume their memory was more developed than mine or yours as they couldn't rely on notes for memory.

so, they are more reliable witnesses because they couldn't read.

reply to post by pieman


THis is the danger and what I have been trying to say all along. You turn ppl away because you centralize your beliefs on only certain things in the Bible that you have no proof for and in fact, you have stated yourself that you only believe because of a feeling.

The feeling is a GOOD thing, but not if you are going to settle there having no real reason to believe other than that feeling. That is not what G-d wanted for you. If you can't say WHY you believe, then your belief rests in your feelings and not in G-d.

When you believe, you will believe in G-d because He has proven to you WHY you should believe in Him. Man, words in a bible, NOTHING can give you that proof. Only G-d can give a person that.. and you will KNOW it is of G-d because you will NEVER have to say "I don't know, I just have a feeling."

That was what I was after. No matter HOW MUCH I wanted to believe in G-d, I could NOT lie and settle on blind faith. Just couldn't and wouldn't. I am glad I didn't settle. I am glad that I waited on G-d to prove Himself in the most unique way to me that I could no longer say I didn't believe.. I am glad that it had nothing to do with what a man said and in fact, it was men that were saying things like you are now that served as an aversion to believing blindly.


To the person that you are posting to.... You are better off NOT believing than settling on anything man tells you to and/or settling on a feeling that only serves to lead someone away from the Truth rather than toward it.

If someone wants proof and continues to ask for it without closing their mind to the idea of G-d, but rather to man's idea of G-d, they will get the proof they are seeking... and it will come in a way OUTSIDE of the Bible, not within the Bible. Once you know, you know. These posters will never convince you... I will never convince you. But for someone to settle on half truths is worse than to just say "I don't know." When you see the Truth, you will see ALL the Truth (the Truth, mind you, is NOT found in man's knowledge though you will see how it works THROUGH man's knowledge and that is what makes it so fascinating.. because you know it is not of man).

[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by precociousmonkey
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

How can you see the world as real, if the self that is determining it to be real is intangible?

sorry for the one liner

Body ..spirit ...is the spirit real or no ? We know the body is real ...
We see it ....we feel it ...the spirit we feel but we cannot see ...
God is a spirit like we are spirit (the being that is living in this body is also spirit and is real) .
Our spirit is real (not some mystical magical fantasy ) ...just like our body is real ....and our spirit will exist outside of this body .(it does not need this body to exist) ...the body is merely a vessel in which the spirit lives ..
When God comes in and dwells in man (through the Holy Spirit through Christ) he dwells within your body with your spirit ....and is just as real as your spirit ...

Originally posted by Simplynoone
reply to post by precociousmonkey

 

God is not some mystical magical fantasy ..
He is a living breath entity ...(Spirit) which is what we are inside this body ..(the entity of the spirit you )
Are you real ?

reply to post by Simplynoone


If a spirit (as an entity) is coming to dwell in you, it is NOT the Spirit of G-d and to claim such is to show that you have done little to study what you claim to believe.

Again.... The Hebrew translation of the Spirit (of G-d) was either one of two things..neither of which WERE G-d, it was OF G-d and neither of which were an entity coming to dwell in a man. That is mysticism. IT comes from a pagan idea of what the spirit is.

When G-d filled a man with His Spirit, it was always referring to one of two meanings and it clarifies this in the Old Testament.

1. Disposition. This was a result of a person walking so close to G-d by leaning to HIS understanding, trusting and obeying what HE said. It is the equivelent of two people being together so much, they begin to take on each other's characteristics.

2. Breath. This happens when G-d uses man's mouth to say His words. AND He will always prove it to the one's His words are for by stating a prophecy and then fulfilling that prophecy. This is the Spirit of G-d that is talked about with the prophets.


Your idea comes from paganism and mysticism, not from G-d.





[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

If a spirit (as an entity) is coming to dwell in you, it is NOT the Spirit of G-d and to claim such is to show that you have done little to study what you claim to believe.

Again.... The Hebrew translation of the Spirit (of G-d) was either one of two things..neither of which WERE G-d, it was OF G-d and neither of which were an entity coming to dwell in a man. That is mysticism. IT comes from a pagan idea of what the spirit is.

When G-d filled a man with His Spirit, it was always referring to one of two meanings and it clarifies this in the Old Testament.

1. Disposition. This was a result of a person walking so close to G-d by leaning to HIS understanding, trusting and obeying what HE said. It is the equivelent of two people being together so much, they begin to take on each other's characteristics.

2. Breath. This happens when G-d uses man's mouth to say His words. AND He will always prove it to the one's His words are for by stating a prophecy and then fulfilling that prophecy. This is the Spirit of G-d that is talked about with the prophets.

Your idea comes from paganism and mysticism, not from G-d.
[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

You make no sense whatsover ......sorry but you have lost me ..
What I see is you do not understand .....

So I will just leave you with this ...hopefully you will read it and possibly understand .....

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

1Cr 15:46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1Cr 15:47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven.

1Cr 15:48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly.

1Cr 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

1Cr 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cr 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Pay close attention to this one
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


I dont know how else to explain it to you ....but I completely disagree with your doctrine .
And I really cannot figure out where your coming from ...maybe I am just dense I dont know ..

But I do not see how you can leave CHRIST ..the HOLY SPIRIT and the WORD OF GOD out of the equation ......I am not understanding you ..

reply to post by pieman


ok thats the stupiest thing I've ever read, better memories because they couldn't read or write. Thats a new one I'll bet every scientist in the world would disagree with you. How exactly does schooling and study not make you more intelligent? And with that question asked, how would no schooling make any sort of thinking process better? If anything this would account for all of these "miracles" because the entirety of the group couldn't comprehend much of anything. So simply put Jesus could have put red food coloring in the water, O MY GOD!!!!! IT's WINE!!!!! Or a more proven theory that if you add sulfate to water it turns pink giving it the presence of being wine... Sounds like somebody just new how to manipulate the masses of unschooled people that would believe a cat could fly because I threw it.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by Lokey13]

Originally posted by Simplynoone

Body ..spirit ...is the spirit real or no ? We know the body is real ...
We see it ....we feel it ...the spirit we feel but we cannot see ...
God is a spirit like we are spirit (the being that is living in this body is also spirit and is real) .
Our spirit is real (not some mystical magical fantasy ) ...just like our body is real ....and our spirit will exist outside of this body .(it does not need this body to exist) ...the body is merely a vessel in which the spirit lives ..
When God comes in and dwells in man (through the Holy Spirit through Christ) he dwells within your body with your spirit ....and is just as real as your spirit ...

Where is your free will? Is it part of your brain, or does it emanate from someplace outside your body and somehow control your actions? Your brain is like a machine in many ways, isn’t it? When part of your brain is stimulated in one specific way, could it respond any way it wants, or would it always respond in one specific way? So where is free will? Must it involve the soul? Where is the soul located? If it was within our bodies would we have not found proof of it already? So you believe that the soul, which is not physical, can influence the brain, which is physical? Do you believe the soul can influence other physical things, like a car or a watch? Can your soul influence other people’s brains, or does it know which brain is yours? My soul must know which brain is mine, otherwise I’d be influenced by other souls and I wouldn’t have free will. Your soul, should probably know the difference between your brain and everything else that is not your brain. And it never makes a mistake in that regard. That means your soul has structure and rules, like a machine.
If the soul is the source of free will, then it must be weighing alternatives and making decisions. That’s its job. But that’s what brains do. Why would you need a soul to do what a brain can do? Or instead of intelligence maybe it is about morality? Is your brain involved in making moral decisions or do those decisions get made someplace outside your body?

Originally posted by Lokey13
reply to post by pieman

 

ok thats the stupiest thing I've ever read, better memories because they couldn't read or write. Thats a new one I'll bet noone would agree with you.

No, he's absolutely correct. Oral-based societies used mnemonic devices, such as poetry or cadence, in order to remember stories to be passed down. Some societies, such as the ancient Hebrews, distrusted writing because of the possibility of error being permenantly enshrined in a written document was high (which is why the OT is so well preserved - the care made to ensure a correct scroll utilized the best of oral tradition memory skills to transfer the stories from memory to scroll, going so far as to count the number of letters on a given page or line, and destroying the scroll if they didn't match up correctly).

Literacy levels were low anyways, and those who could write were usually in service to the royalty. Day to day commerce, religion, and family life would center on oral traditions passed down from generation to generation by common folks using mnemonic techniques. They most certainly had better memories than we do today, and in those few places around the world that are still oral based - Australian aboriginies for instance - nothing changes when they play the "telephone game" regardless of whether the line is 2 or 2000 persons long.

You might want to look up oral societies in general, and I'll post a few links to articles on oral tradition in the OT:

www.tektonics.org...

www.tektonics.org...

www.christian-thinktank.com...

I'm sorry, don't mean to inturupt your various disputes, but wasn't this thread suposed to be a compair and contrast of what might happen if the dummied down religion of "christianity" was to step upto the plate of reality and face the facts that the bible is not quite litterly true being that it is nationalistic documents of the jews spun out of sumerian texts in association with mythological spin put on the story of the quite human Ioshaua?

Do we have to teach our children to disobey? Or does is come naturally? I know I personally have to work at being a Dad and correct my children, from time to time on right and wrong. Do you feel guilt over something only you know took place? Where does that come from? Where does, "wrong", aka "sin" come from?

I choose to follow Christ, who teaches me through his word each day to becomeing a better husband, dad and person in general.

Originally posted by Incarnated
I'm sorry, don't mean to inturupt your various disputes, but wasn't this thread suposed to be a compair and contrast of what might happen if the dummied down religion of "christianity" was to step upto the plate of reality and face the facts that the bible is not quite litterly true being that it is nationalistic documents of the jews spun out of sumerian texts in association with mythological spin put on the story of the quite human Ioshaua?

Maybe, but since I took classes under Stephen Grosby, a specialist on the OT and nationalism, and know for a fact that your contention about borrowing from sumerian texts is incorrect on numerous levels, we just moved on to something else.

Sorry to hijack the thread and all, but ....

reply to post by Incarnated


seems to me that ones time is better spent living and caring for one another rather than picking apart a religion.

when i wake up in the morning, i feed my animals, enjoy the sun rise, drink my coffee and realize that I'm the same as you, you and you over there.

no need to quote anything, worship anything or feel compelled to fear sinning or angering a god and looking for favor.

my .03