Christians need to face the facts!

badmedia, I'm afraid I don't have time for a detailed reply right now - I'll just write quickly that your "moral system" is based on double standards. You are prepared to imagine any excuse possible to forgive God acts of evil! Would you do the same if that child was killed instead by a pedofile? Would you say that was not a crime and offer some "out of this world" excuse ("that we don't know the end and God's final purpose, blah-blah-blah) for the psycho killer as well, the way you do it when you try to save God from "embarrassment"?

Yes, I used a child in my examples just because if I used an adult some religious people might say the adult may have been punished for his sins. Is the child I mentioned in those cases punished? Is the faith of the child tested? That of his parents? Why does God allow that? What purpose does it serve? You failed to answer that. You can choose to believe God must have some "higher purpose" for that poor child - but that is a "belief" - not a rational argument. God would let a child die in pain from an incurable disease - so you choose to believe that we don't know all, that God takes his place, that death is not the end, etc. - because otherwise you cannot explain it ...

It's amazing how easy it is for the religious to forgive random evil "acts of God" - with the "joker card excuse" - the "higher purpose"?! Wasn't it that same "joker card excuse" - the "higher purpose" used also to justify the victims of religious wars and oppressions throught history (be them Christians, Jews, Muslims, non-believers or others)?


[edit on 15-12-2008 by zamolxis]

Originally posted by badmedia
But you said history. And the rule of History is that it is written by the victors. Most of the taught history is propaganda. My apologies if I misunderstood.

So to is calling recorded history propaganda just propaganda. I believe that is a statement that is more false then it is true, but assuming it was true I'd say:

To the victors comes the spoils, including the right to write history in the way that the majority seen it, as the victors tend to be the majority rule.

However I believe seeing things in negitives is false and misleading. If you look for negitives, do you expect not to find them?

Trying to come back on topic. Again, no doubt folklore, cultures and religions greatly influenced each other throughout history

"Lord Raglan, in THE HERO (1936) has classified the parallel life-patterns of the mythical hero of tradition into twenty-two archetypal incidents"

"LORD RAGLANS SCALE

1. The hero's mother is a royal virgin
2. His father is a king and
3. often a near relative of the mother, but
4. the circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5. he is also reputed to be the son of a god
6. at birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7. He is spirited away, and
8. Reared by foster-parents in a far country
9. We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10. On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11. After a victory over the king and or giant, dragon, or wild beast
12. He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor and
13. becomes king
14. For a time he reigns uneventfully and
15. Prescribes laws but
16. later loses favor with the gods and or his people and
17. Is driven from from the throne and the city after which
18. He meets with a mysterious death
19. often at the top of a hill.
20. his children, if any, do not succeed him.
21. his body is not buried, but nevertheless
22. he has one or more holy sepulchres. "

"How Some Heros Scored
# Oedipus scores 21
# Theseus scores 20
# Moses scores 20
# Dionysus scores 19
# Jesus scores 19
# Romulus scores 18
# Perseus scores 18
# Hercules scores 17
# Llew Llaw Gyffes scores 17
# Bellerophon scores 16
# Jason scores 15
# Mwindo scores 14
# Robin Hood scores 13
# Pelops scores 13
# Apollo scores 11
# Sigurd scores 11.

Raglan scale

reply to post by zamolxis


First, thank you very much. I think the topic is well worth the effort to come back on target. Truly thank you.

Secondly, you're so right. In a global world with a scientificly based logical thinking and pergression pattern of consciouness, the mythology of "Jesus Chirst" must die so that the truth about Ioshaua will shine forth as a second reserection.

Originally posted by zamolxis
badmedia, I'm afraid I don't have time for a detailed reply right now - I'll just write quickly that your "moral system" is based on double standards. You are prepared to imagine any excuse possible to forgive God acts of evil! Would you do the same if that child was killed instead by a pedofile? Would you say that was not a crime and offer some "out of this world" excuse ("that we don't know the end and God's final purpose, blah-blah-blah) for the psycho killer as well, the way you do it when you try to save God from "embarrassment"?

I understand why you think this. Don't assume I have never had your opinion, I have. I would tell people their God didn't meet my moral standards for example. I'd pretty much make the same arguments you make.

When I look at things, I look at the action and the situation. For example, if a person has not eaten in a week, I don't really think much about it if they steal some food - I can understand why that happens. It doesn't make the action in itself right, but I understand why the person did it - it wasn't because they were trying to be evil.

You assume that everything in our perspective is what reality is. But we have a very limited perspective of things. Just the amount of light our eyes sees is like less than 5% of the total spectrum for example. When you understand what consciousness and the universe is, then the opinion on these things changes. And because you don't see it, you assume I must be making things up.

Perhaps this post will help explain what I'm talking about.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is a logic behind things. What we really see in the universe is a reflection of ourselves, and where we are. But there is a limit in how much I can communicate and explain things. There are some things which are abstract and near impossible to explain. And even you think you understand what I'm trying to convey, chances are you aren't.

This is a good movie that talks about things and the problems we face. Starts out a bit slow, but after the music players it gets interesting. Called Waking Life.

Google Video Link

Well this one is easy. To be a christian you must have faith. There is no evidence of a jesus anywhere outside the bible. But its okay as long as you have faith. You do not even have to follow what the bible says (Exodus 21:7,Deuteronomy 21:18-21,Leviticus 24:16,Deuteronomy 13:5-10) You just have to have faith. If jesus was a real person and the things in the bible were fact you would not need faith you would have knowledge. but Joseph Smith Jr, Muhammad, the Dalai Lama L Ron Hubbard were all REAL people with somthing to say. But oh no. Joseph Smith was a lair, the Dalai Lama has lived more than once without going to heaven,L Ron Hubbard wrote science fiction for a living by no means a holly carpenter and that Muhammad guy called his god Allah. All these real people had somthing positive to say and wanted better for their fellow man. So its real easy to write off everyone else as a christian because no matter what happens they have faith. I always wondered what christians think about other religions. I mean do they write everyone else off as crazy for not conforming to the thought that a virgin gave birth to the son of god who grew up to die for 3 days then rise from the dead? I just had a thought if the bible is true and jesus comes back to save all the good christians i think the christians will kill him thinking he is the anti-christ.

reply to post by zamolxis
even ignorance can be good,until we use it for something. with out ignorance there is no innocents, thats why the truth can not be handled by us alone.

reply to post by Incarnated


...even with all the falibilities of man and wanting to put into their own words what Jesus said and meant....the message got through.

Love thy neighbor as yourself. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Sorry so many Christian's want to muck it up and sorry so many of you have decided that they represent Christianity. When you don't love...you sin....its universal to everyone whether you worship rocks or God or yourself. You can debate about the consequences of sin all you want but the real world result is pain and suffering and not being all you were created to be....its not complicated, though the simplier it gets the dumber people seem to get.
There isn't a religion out there that hasn't mucked this up. There isn't a cult, nor atheist group....the ones that know must deal with the rest of you while we deal with our own daily choices to not love. Not throwing the first stone is a real pain in the arse.

Originally posted by kevintorvalds
About the "stealing" from Sumeria:
If you actually study the bible, you'll see that Abram (as Abraham was formerly called, or so say the translations) originally came from a city called Ur, located in.... drum roll.... yep, you guessed it, Sumeria! The writings that the christians hold so sacred say themselves that this whole thing originated in Sumeria!
It was the custom of these people to choose one of the MANY gods to worship for life. They would devote their lives to this one god, so that the whole civilization had all their bases covered, so to speak. Abram did nothing different. He simply chose one of the Sumerian gods and went with it. That's where things got funny. They spent some time in Egypt, where their religious beliefs were affected by that culture as well. On and on the story goes, picking up little religious tidbits on the fly, until, today, we get "the bible".

Not so fast.
Monotheism was before polytheism.

You first have idea/concept about one thing, not many. It's pure logic. So, you have concept about one God, then later about more gods.