Christians need to face the facts!

reply to post by papabryant


OK, I participated in the hijacking of the thread...but i would like to get back to the topic also. Since you brought this up that you dont find the creation story to be borrowed, Im interested in others thoughts on how the story survived the flood ect....unless it was on stone slabs.. OR..unless God did intervene and told someone to write the story down after the fact.

Thoughts??

Im going on the bias thought that the Bible would be Gods literal word. How does the creation story get written by the Hebrews. For what reasons would we have to believe that it is the only valid 'creation' story that is right.

I think its very possible that the original story was placed on stone slabs and this is how such a story survived. Then such a story or myth (which ever you prefer to call it) gets passed around, ideas and names change somewhat...some even claim it as their own story.

I would love to hear opinions without everyone saying...you are a liar and you are wrong ect...ect....ect....Its not hard to say....

"here are my thoughts and opinions"

Peace,
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


I think this is a good question and all I have on it are speculations that are mine. I don't claim and in fact highly doubt they are even close to being the Truth. lol

Honestly though, it is hard for me to write those speculations down because I see the flaws in my theories and so, what is the point. If I don't know, it is best just to say I don't know. I like the questions though and am curious to see others speculations on it.

I find it sad that people will attack something first then ask questions later. Christian or non-christian, who cares what you believe? Really, who cares? It is after all only a Belief either Chosen by a person or Indoctrinated into them from a very young age.

Yes it is true that today there is much information that easily discredits the Bible as being the one and only true writing of God. But this does not sway those who Believe. Nor should it. Only experience of greater reality can do that. Which brings me to the post by dominicus.

By dominicus
In the mean time I'll rest in the spiritual enlightenment, ego death, no fear of death, transcendent Love, third eye activated, and complete freedom from this world that I received from becoming a Christian and following the ways of my savior.

Enlightenment may not be what you think it is. It is the ability to open up at will to the Light, and therefore open up to your own higher awareness levels of Soul. At such awareness levels we see through all Belief, knowing that we exist as massive and powerful beings that are portions of the greater Awareness we humans tend to call God... as we usually do not have suitable terms to convey to others what this Creative, Energetic Awareness really is.

Ego death. Why do so many Believe that the Ego is a negative? Is it not the part of us that provides awareness of our Self? And therefore does not God also have awareness of Self? How then can it be a negative that must be killed, defeated, or otherwise suppressed.. instead of understanding that it is a part of the whole, and that like all things is to be Balanced for the betterment of our awareness?

I hope you see I ask these questions of you in order to have you ask WHY you believe, and not to attack or ridicule you. Instead I would prefer to love you and reach common understanding.

Next topic.... and before I get too far into it, I wish it to be known that I do not obtain my information from Sitchin. What I share here about this topic is from my dear old Mentor, who worked on deciphering the Tablets at the same time as Sitchin. She argued strongly with Sitchin over his Interpretations and "embellishments" while she instead translated into plain English which provided a rather prosaic result that is a joy to read.

The Sumerian Tablets are the first writings of human societies. They were written down about 7,500 years ago. And, more importantly, they include many Facts that modern science is only discovering in recent times for itself.

What facts you may ask? The descriptions of the planets in our Solar System, their masses, sizes and appearance UP CLOSE to the naked eye. ... this includes Pluto, which we only discovered in the past 80 or so years. The descriptions of how planetary bodies are formed from the interaction between two larger bodies in space, the physics of which we have only just observed recently.

The factual remains of euthenased genetic experiments, as described in the Tablets, that have been found on three occasions in the past 120 years buried in massive sarcophagai (also described in the Tablets), the latest of which was discovered in the 1970's and removed to the British Museum for cleaning and reassembly. And the result of that work? The report I read many years ago said, "These are creatures from our mythology and worst nightmares." Perfectly describing the many experimental mistakes as recorded in the Sumerian Tablets.

It is also true that the Hebrews came out of Sumer with the first Book of what has become the Bible. When you read the clearly translated Cuneiform you will see for yourself that what appears in the Bible is an extremely edited version of the brilliant original writing. In places we can still read word for word and sentence for sentence, while the more "absurd sounding" information has been deleted.







[edit on 9-12-2008 by Tayesin]

hahaha you are just a stupid human like the rest of us, lost in a vehicle we don't understand. so just shut up and color

reply to post by Tayesin


Very kind reply without belittling anyone...I give you a star just for that.

I also enjoyed the way you worded the difference in savior and ones own enlightenment. Many things you said are well thought (in my personal opinion).

The whole ego thing...negative or positive...I think we would need a whole other thread for that one.

*Waits to see if anyone disputes the Sumerian origin of the creation story*

Peace to all,
LV

That whole post reminded me of an "almost argument" I had with someone about Christianity and the existence of Jesus as the Messiah. Well, it all came down to the fact that he saw it on THE HISTORY CHANNEL! He was regurgitating unproven information from the History CHannel for goodness sake. To think he would try to argue with a book that had been translated and passed down through so many ages and still hasn't lost its meaning. In any language, it stays the same. Who in their right mind, could argue with such a strong literary piece using info from a TV show!?! Ok..so I understand that we aren't all scholarship material, but...

I couldn't believe I had wasted 15 minutes of my time arguing with such a shallow individual. I can only hope that God was using this time to plant some seeds in his heart. Otherwise, I may have become a little dumber in that small time period.

reply to post by Tayesin

Next topic.... and before I get too far into it, I wish it to be known that I do not obtain my information from Sitchin. What I share here about this topic is from my dear old Mentor, who worked on deciphering the Tablets at the same time as Sitchin. She argued strongly with Sitchin over his Interpretations and "embellishments" while she instead translated into plain English which provided a rather prosaic result that is a joy to read.

Do you have a favorite site or two? I'd like to read more of the translated writings again.

Thanks

dominicus said:
I'll tell you what. Since I'm a Christian Mystic I'll let you rest in your "thinking" that its all made up and fake.

In the mean time I'll rest in the spiritual enlightenment, ego death, no fear of death, transcendent Love, third eye activated, and complete freedom from this world that I received from becoming a Christian and following the ways of my savior.

If I had a perspective gun, ala hitchikers guide, I garuntee you'd become one in a milisecond.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Smug condescension is the kind of ego-free enlightenment, transcendent love and complete freedom from the world one can expect from following your savior? Really? You'll "let" them have their thoughts? If this is enlightened mysticism, then we're all screwed.

And what is all this Zeitgeist nonsense? I've never seen Zeitgeist (I would never have even heard of it were it not for lurking on ATS), but in doing my own research I've come to similar conclusions all on my own. It's possible. The people behind Zeitgeist got their ideas from somewhere too, after all.

reply to post by Dontmakemebethe1


Ummm.... many disagree about the Bible. It looks like many agree because the worlds main religion revolves around it, but opinions are beyond measure on the meaning. Humans can embrace something they feel they are in need of, especially if a certain writing is held in high esteem by a power or authority in the world that wipes out other scriptures that differ then what they would like or what would put them OUT of power in the 'control' business.

So enlighten this thread with your wisdom and share your thoughts on how the creation story IS NOT from Sumerian origins. Did Adam himself write it and then Noah took it in the Ark? Ideas?

Why shrug off a stone tablet by a civilization that shows itself to be the most ancient surviving tells of this world and its inhabitants? Can you share your opinion of why you dont personally find this to be of any value to you? Did you know that these tablets have things besides stories...there is thousands of these tablets and some are chalk full of things like geometry.

Again, I stress I would love to here thoughts and opinions. No one can prove that these writings relate to people that existed 100 thousand yrs. ego and such (I read that earlier in this thread somewhere)...but the tablets themselves are very very real. The dates of these tablets are very very real.

Peace,
LV

reply to post by Tayesin


The Sumerian writings, as far as I can discern from earlier posts seem to be written by the Sumerian people describing observations about their present world/universe as they saw or experienced it. So how does this compare to the canonized Holy Bible (no matter which version)? The inspirations were totally different.

God inspired men to include those books that would be in agreement or accord into the collection. The whole book flows and references itself throughout the centuries of writings that are recorded.

I am a little afraid to discuss this too much, simply because I am not educated in ancient literary or historic documents like this, but explain to me the reason why the Sumerian documents would be more authoritative than say, the dead sea scrolls, or older Jewish works that weren't included in the Holy Bible. (or more authoritative than the Bible itself, which explicitly states that the words included and accepted into the bible should not be added to or taken away from)

I don't understand what the Sumerian writings have to do with the context of the Bible and how Christianity would be based on something other than what it has been based on for centuries, if we would accept the premise that something was lost or left out from these Sumerian cunieform writings.

Oh...I hope that made sense and that someone can understand my question, b/c I don't know if it came out the way I wanted it to.

reply to post by Incarnated


From a child I have followed the examples of Jesus. In the things that I have erred, the Grace of God covers. The places where the enemy has trampled, the things the enemy has stolen, the bad seed that was thrown in with the good, God will separate and the burdens that were thrust upon me, my God will consider.

reply to post by papabryant


Lets also take into consideration that if you play the game of telephone, it never ends up with how it started. The story of Beowulf could be used as an example of how people take spoken word and blow it up to mythical proportions if anything people do not work on others memories but instead make there own. As a result why do you think the populus has such a lust of idiology.

reply to post by Dontmakemebethe1


I understand perfectly what you are asking and think the question is valid. You seem to be where I am in knowing there *is* something different in the bible AS A WHOLE (not divided) that other texts lack. I have looked into the other texts when I wanted to find the Truth outside the Bible. Funny thing is, ALL of them brought me back to the one and only text that IS different from the others on SO many levels.

*I think* when one lacks any real basis for their belief, they can see their truth in almost anything and accept almost anyone's. I know that is how it was for me. Everything could be accepted in some way. I never understood those that had faith in ONLY the G-d of the Bible (those who actually had faith and were not tossed around to and fro were those who believed the WHOLE bible and took it at its word w/out taking away or adding to it) until I let go of my understanding and just read the whole thing as it was written.. There IS indeed something different and it is everything that I can not argue with.

Just saying.. when your faith is built on one's own understanding, it is easy to believe anything so long as it doesn't limit "self."

There *is* a reason that the Sumarian texts don't have that same kind of power and it IS because it lacks the wisdom found only in the words of G-d. (I know, i know.. I am going to get smeared for saying such, but to me, whether anyone believes me or not, isn't it kind of ironic that I use Scripture to back up what I am saying and call for the same to be done by others who say their belief is in the Bible and yet everyone else's can be accepted regardless of if they call other ways the wrong way so long as they don't use Scripture? i just find that weird).


[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by Simplynoone

I even saw demons roaming about in church whispering in the peoples ears and going in and out the church windows ..(

I have seen this and I have seen my neighbors son playing with a demon (imaginary playmates they are called), but, I saw the figure, I heard the boy talking to it. I tried to warn him, now, because I saw and I see, they want me dead. That is what they worship and they know it to be that.

reply to post by justamomma


Jesus came to instruct those who the world was manipulating the difference between the God of “this world” and the true God (Ancient of Days, the Eternal).

“The world loves its own”.
The “son of man (humans) have no where to lay their head” (no rest)
“Blessed are you when MEN persecute you.”
Those that do not worship “the beast” (the world system) will be killed.
A lamb before his shearers is dumb.

Having a “discerning spirit” means you will know, that’s it, there is no thought or outside influence, you just know.

Thought, reason and judgment can cause doubts. Faith is the assurance.

Originally posted by Siren
reply to post by justamomma

 

Jesus came to instruct those who the world was manipulating the difference between the God of “this world” and the true God (Ancient of Days, the Eternal).

“The world loves its own”.
The “son of man (humans) have no where to lay their head” (no rest)
“Blessed are you when MEN persecute you.”
Those that do not worship “the beast” (the world system) will be killed.
A lamb before his shearers is dumb.

Having a “discerning spirit” means you will know, that’s it, there is no thought or outside influence, you just know.

Thought, reason and judgment can cause doubts. Faith is the assurance.

I agree with the essence of what you are saying. I think that knowing DOES come from a source outside ourselves, but it is not man and it is not our interpretation. It is seeing what is written, FINALLY, for what it is as it says. There is not an interpretation needed by man or even by yourself because the interpretation is right there, written out.

There should be no denying of any of it. I do like what you said.. "faith is assurance" and that is something I had been seeking and funny I found it in the ONE text I spent so much time running from.

One can have faith in a Higher Power as well as use the reasoning that higher power made man to have to learn about mankind's history. The faith part, is knowing the nature of that higher power....the history of mankind's past has nothing to do with faith. Its not wrong to question an origin of a 'material' or of a 'people', it shows one is interested in learning about this 'material' world.


The maker did give us a brain to use...there is no harm in using it especially if you are strong in your faith.

Just thoughts, as always
LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
One can have faith in a Higher Power as well as use the reasoning that higher power made man to have to learn about mankind's history. The faith part, is knowing the nature of that higher power....the history of mankind's past has nothing to do with faith. Its not wrong to question an origin of a 'material' or of a 'people', it shows one is interested in learning about this 'material' world.


The maker did give us a brain to use...there is no harm in using it especially if you are strong in your faith.

Just thoughts, as always
LV

I do not argue that we have been given a brain and I am a HUGE supporter of questioning things. I do NOT look down on people that question things AT ALL!! In fact, had I not done so myself, I would still be a christian and not at all understanding the most important part of the bible, which is to say the words of G-d and His nature.

I think to buy into ANYTHING blindly is to defeat the purpose of true faith. I think it was misconstrued that I am against those who do not believe like me. My ought is when someone is attributing interpretations to ANYONE else that is in direct conflict of what they said and this includes when someone does this with G-d.

Truth is consistent.. it does not pick and choose what suits the ego's purpose.. this is part of using our brains. When things weren't consistent to me in my understanding of the Bible, I rejected it all until I was in the right place to see the consistency.

If someone says that the G-d of the old testament is not the true G-d, then they cannot claim to support the message that Jesus taught since He did NOT negate the G-d of the old testament.. nor did he add or take away from Him. He *was* a light, but that light was not to expose G-d as a fraud, but rather to bring the Truth to light on a grander scale (meaning, now the Jews writings against themselves would be brought to the attention of the world). How can you believe what Jesus said when you deny the G-d he was basing his sayings on? Just makes no sense to me. It is inconsistent.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

This means that the spirit of prophecy (the knowledge of future events as well as how to prepare) will accompany the Spirit of truth. We will know (it is true), because it will come to pass.

reply to post by Buddy420

Time's are gettin' tuff and now more than ever we need to come together despite our differences.

Well said, and I agree.

This was one line and now it's two.