A question for our European and Aussie friends...Do you regret giving up your right to own firearms?

With the economic downturn here in America and the threat of looming violence from both the citizens and the over aggressive police there has been much mention of a recent increase in firearms sales and purchases going on here in the United States.


Two things about this subject trouble me greatly. Seeing as America is not the only country on the block who is and will be experiencing serious economic hardship, which will bring with it huge spike in crime and unrest. Europeans as well as many in Oz are already seeing this take place according to many who post there.

Yet every time a subject or a thread is started in regard to Americans who are buying or choosing to own weaponry for self defense, it seems that European and Aussie members are the first ones to criticize or attack Americans for choosing to exercise their second amendment right to defend themselves. I see a lot of negative name calling and sarcastic critical responses toward this choice and it often baffles me.

This is not an attempt to bait or anger any of our brothers and sisters from across the pond, merely a curiosity that I have had for a while now. Is it that you folks are jealous that Americans are still able to enjoy this right that has been stripped away from you by your own governments? Is it sour grapes, or do you all really feel such strong anti-gun sentiments?

I fear that things may end poorly for a lot of you and I genuinely feel concern for your basic abilities to survive in a hostile and rapidly declining and violent world.

What will you do in case of a violent revolt? How will you combat the already increasingly violent crime? If your government decides to show up and take you away next week, what means will you use to defend your families? Also, if and when food shortages do become commonplace as many believe they will, how will you hunt for food?

Again, Im not trying to antagonize anyone. I just find it difficult to understand how so many can be so critical of Americans exercising their few remaining rights when you yourselves are in a real world of trouble. Defenseless against the police, defenseless against thugs and criminals, and completely vulnerable to attacks.

I do know that some are still allowed to own shotguns or hunting rifles in Europe and Australia, but just how difficult is it for an average Joe to get a firearm?

Thanks in advance for answering these questions, I am genuinely curious to hear how you folks view this subject within your own countries.



[edit on 10/28/08 by BlackOps719]

Well, here in the UK, the right to bear arms has been all but gone for many years, and I can honestly say, despite living in about the roughest area of London for the last 28 years, it's made absolutely no difference to my existence whatsoever. Certainly hasn't made me less secure. And there's been a marked lack of high school massacres or accidental deaths by shooting.

It's reasonably easy to get a gun licence if you want to - though there are any number of checks to go through. But the vast majority of people seems to get by without wanting one, miraculously enough.

Thanks very much for your concern, but I think we'll be alright, BlackOps.

LW

No i am a passive person, so i never wanted one. I think america need to give up there rights to this also, america has always been a violent country, do you guys never get sick of that.

You even condition your kids into violence. The xbox 360, all it has , are violent games. I just wonder how long if ever, you lot will lose that right?

reply to post by andy1033




Violence isnt native or unique to America. I hear of assualts and knife attacks and all sorts of violence taking place in other countries. These violent video games that you speak of are sold in all countries as far as I know, and most are produced outside of America as well.

Yes the US has a history of violence, but show me one major country that doesnt.

Originally posted by andy1033
I think america need to give up there rights to this also, america has always been a violent country, do you guys never get sick of that.

What Europeans just do not understand is that America is not at all homogenius. About 70% of us are Euro-Americans and among THAT population our rates of murder and violence are the same as much "less" violent countries such as Canada. Norway has a very high rate of gun ownership and a very low rate of murder, why is that?

I understand why Europeans think it is about guns; that is what the media constantly claims, but in reality there are many other factors at work. Some segments of our society have tremendously high murder rates, in one instance a particular group that makes up 6% of our population accounts for 49% of ALL murders in the U.S. That group is not Euro-American therefore the media will NOT openly discuss the issue, or openly show true statistics about gun ownership and violence in the U.S.

Our problems in the U.S. cannot be compared to Europe or Australia, and our problems are not discussed in the media because it is not PC. But trust me it is not about "guns".

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Sonya610]

I dont think people in the UK can even understand how rural america works, out in rural america owning 10+ acres of property is very very common many own 50 acres, on 50acres you can hunt your own property and never run out of game to shoot at..

In European countries there isn't nearly as much free open land and i can see why they don't use guns as often but , i have to say having a gun was really nice to have when there was a rabid skunk trying to make its home under my house, not to mention in the case of natural disaster i can hunt for my own food.
Hunting is a huge pastime in the states. I dotn really hunt, however I have in the past and would like to keep that option in the future so i can provide for my family if needed.

If there is ever a ban on guns in the USA i bet there will be a revolution. I don't ever see the USA banning gun ownership, as it is in the constitution.

The one thing I see here alto on ATS is alto of anti gun crap, and alot of it from Americans. This is sad, it want long ago that the gun set us free from the rule of a overlord government and let us be free to lead out our lives and be prosperous.

Citizens having guns is the check to keep tyrannical governments from taking over. The forefathers recognized this and thus put the 2nd amendment in place for this reason.

Sure guns can kill people and accidents can and do happen with guns , but under that same logic, then all cars should be outlawed too since they kill far more people that guns.

Hailing from Sweden, one of the countries where it must be hardest to own a gun, I am pretty happy with the way things are.

If you would like to own a rifle or handgun here (automatic and assult rifles are out of the question) you need to join a "marksman society" or club, and to do that you need to be invited by someone who is already a member and then the society or club must grant you through investigation.

This system has been in place for as long as anyone knows, and it works.

I am very happy with this method and the reason is simple:
less guns, less shooting.
To need guns to fight violence is like having sex to become a virgin- it is just not the way things work.
Besides, the 2nd ammendment is obsolete like hell and it is in no sereious way a human right to own a gun.

If there would be total turmoil and chaos in the streets you will most probably come across a firearm one way or another, but as some old text says "the one who draws a sword in rage shall so be cut down by one". This could not be more correct in my eyes.
And also, there are many other ways to defend yourself: cross- and regular bows can be manufactured easily just as many other types of street weapons. Animals can be caught using traps.

That's my idea. But basicly it's just "less guns, less shootings" that are my way of using logic. If I am wrong- then what is wrong with the statistics? And why havent we had one single shool massacre over here?

Originally posted by Sonya610
Some segments of our society have tremendously high murder rates, in one instance a particular group that makes up 6% of our population accounts for 49% of ALL murders in the U.S. That group is not Euro-American therefore the media will NOT openly discuss the issue, or openly show true statistics about gun ownership and violence in the U.S.

Do they have something in common other than ancestral origin? Or is it simply that those descended from Europeans are less prone to violent behavior? Do you think socio-economic status and its effect on psychology accounts for any of this or is such status also ethno-centric?

[edit on 28-10-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

There are countries in Europe where firearms are still allowed as you said. For example, when you are a member of a shooting range club (in good standing for 2 years I believe.) And in my country many exceptions can be made depending on the circumstances.

And even if there was a total ban of ''guns @ home'' Melee weaponry is still allowed in many cases (which can be quite useful for close quarters.)

Plus improvised weaponry can be just as lethal, almost everything required to make things from smoke bombs to chemical weapons & explosives can be found in regular stores around here.

And personal experience has showed me that most of these things are safe for usage, it's not as if they spontaneously explode in your face or something.

Not having the right to own firearms does not equal being defenseless.

Here's a list of various legal weaponry in The Netherlands:
Various melee weaponry (sharp & blunt), crossbows, harpoons, firearms that work by air-powered methods rather than gunpowder.

And for Rifles and such you need a certificate that you can get from a hunting association or shooting range.

[edit on 28/10/08 by -0mega-]

Originally posted by TravelerintheDark
Do they have something in common other than ancestral origin? Or is it simply that those descended from Europeans are less prone to violent behavior? Do you think socio-economic status and its effect on psychology accounts for any of this or is such status also ethno-centric?

I am not going to pontificate on the reasons why, or make excuses for the high murder and crime rates. Last time I checked there were poor people from just about every "ancestral background" here in the U.S...yet they do not all have the same atrociously high violent crime rates.

Never had the right to own a gun so i never gave it up.

My dad hunts and owns 2 shotguns, a scoped .22 and a scoped .27

The chances of a violent revolt occouring here is highly unlikely but if it does happen, ill probably borrow one of his guns.

reply to post by BlackOps719


This thread seems to revolve around two issues. It's been mentioned that Europeans don't understand what rural America is like. That's a fair point, but one that also works the other way, I dare say Americans don't really understand what it's like to have an ostensibly urban European population.

Secondly, the timing of the thread seems based due to the anxiety that's been created by problems with the economy. I actually feel safer in "a hostile and rapidly declining and violent world", knowing the idiot down the street hasn't got an assortment of guns in his house. Yes, he might try and attack me in other ways, but I'm more happy to take my chances pitching my fists against his or even my knife against his knife. Guns are often pitched as a great leveller, but anything that could kill me from half way down the street of even without me knowing don't seem very equalising to me.

As for society going completely to pieces and we Brits might need guns to hunt? Hunt what for Lord Krondar's sake? Are we going to be eating other people? We've already established that a lot of Britain lives in urban environments and what rural land there would only provide eating for a fraction of the population and for a short amount of time too.

I think it is very funny for people of other countries demand that we give up our "RIGHTS." No thank you very much. The right to bear arms was put into our Constitution to guarantee us the right to fight the Government when it becomes to powerful. Today's times are an indication of the power the government is attaining. They are off course. The People of the United States need to correct this. I care not what the world thinks, if they choose to give up rights that is their problem. I for one will not submit to the government taking my rights.

reply to post by andy1033


Then you'll also be condemning violent literature, music, art and films. Just because a media is new, doesn't mean that it's unduly responsible for 'corruption of youth'.

Anyway, back on topic. Living in the UK, i've never felt the urge to carry a gun. in my opinion, you only really need one if you live in the wilderness of a country that has large fauna. Carrying a weapon in the inner cities is almost as dangerous as flaunting a Cartier watch in a deprived neighbourhood. Not to mention recent studies, i forgot the link, which finds an increased suicide rate among firearms owners.

Im not sure how it works in Europe, but one big problem here in the US is the fact that we have a lot of violent criminals. As Sonya pointed out, we do have entire segements of our society now where violence is taught early on and perfectly acceptable.

The problem here is the criminals do not buy guns legally, they steal them or buy them on the black market. If the right to purchase a firearm was taken away here in the states, it would effectively disarm the law abiding citizens who would be unarmed and at the mercy of the criminals.


I agree with the points about not understanding rural America, but it isnt just rural America. Our metro areas are full of guns and this is where the vast majority of gun violence here takes place. It isnt the small towns and the suburban areas where people are being shot on a daily basis, it is the inner city and metro areas.

Guns are also our only means to defend ourselves against an aggressive and rogue government/police force. The way these violent hot head cops are in America I would hate to see how bold and aggressive they would become if there was no way for citizens to possibly defend themselves.

And lastly...there must be somewhere to hunt wild game in the UK? Has urban sprawl enveloped all of England? Surely there is some countryside still remaining?

And if I was an Aussie I would insist on owning a rifle, too many dangerous wild animals over there (yes I know there are cities also and it isnt all like Crocodile Dundee)

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I for one will not submit to the government taking my rights.

Well, considering the topic was specifically asking for Europeans to answer and you've taken it 'off topic'...

So what are you going to do about it then? I hear this talk a lot but how 'the American government won't take away my rights' and yet each year, governments all over the world get more restrictive and they pry and spy just a little bit more. What are you waiting for? Some armed services to turn-up on your doorstep? Washington DC postmarked letters in the post informing you of the starting date of NWO/Big Brother two weeks in advance?

Or is this some bizarre thing where the government can do what they want apart from take away your gun rights, because you need your gun rights to stop them taking everything else away?

Doh!

It's a serious question: you seem very adamant the government won't take away your rights, but when will you start to load your gun? What will it take?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
I for one will not submit to the government taking my rights.

Well, considering the topic was specifically asking for Europeans to answer and you've taken it 'off topic'...

So what are you going to do about it then? I hear this talk a lot but how 'the American government won't take away my rights' and yet each year, governments all over the world get more restrictive and they pry and spy just a little bit more. What are you waiting for? Some armed services to turn-up on your doorstep? Washington DC postmarked letters in the post informing you of the starting date of NWO/Big Brother two weeks in advance?

Or is this some bizarre thing where the government can do what they want apart from take away your gun rights, because you need your gun rights to stop them taking everything else away?

Doh!

It's a serious question: you seem very adamant the government won't take away your rights, but when will you start to load your gun? What will it take?

I think what you are missing is the fact that the remainder of our rights havent been taken away BECAUSE we still maintain the right to bear arms.

An unarmed populous is a defenseless one, I truly believe that these crooked politicians and other assorted vermin would have long ago turned America into a complete police state had it not been for the lingering fear of trifling with a society filled with people who were able to fire back.

It may sound paranoid, but I think the 2nd amendment is the only thing holding back our government from seizing complete and total power over the people.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
And lastly...there must be somewhere to hunt wild game in the UK? Has urban sprawl enveloped all of England? Surely there is some countryside still remaining?

There is some countryside yes, but I'm unsure of what you think people are going to be surviving on. Bison?

Also, regarding this big American game hunting thing. Serious question: if it all falls apart, you might have some big wide open spaces and animals but think how many armed Americans are going to be having the same idea as you and how you're standing in the way of their bigger, fancier rifle and an evening meal.

Originally posted by Merriman Weir

Originally posted by BlackOps719
And lastly...there must be somewhere to hunt wild game in the UK? Has urban sprawl enveloped all of England? Surely there is some countryside still remaining?

There is some countryside yes, but I'm unsure of what you think people are going to be surviving on. Bison?

Also, regarding this big American game hunting thing. Serious question: if it all falls apart, you might have some big wide open spaces and animals but think how many armed Americans are going to be having the same idea as you and how you're standing in the way of their bigger, fancier rifle and an evening meal.

There are vast areas and abundant amounts of wildlife to hunt here in the US. In my area there are so many deer roaming around the forestry service actually encourages them to be hunted and killed due to over population.

As for me personally, I would be more prone to fish as opposed to exclusively hunting. Between the many lakes, not to mention ponds and more importantly oceans, there would be an endless supply of protein for anyone skilled enough to catch it.

Also very curious about this:


Are handguns all but illegal in Europe and Australia/NZ?


From what I understand it is all but impossible to purchase or possess a handgun. Why is that?