Originally posted by Sonya610
I am not going to pontificate on the reasons why, or make excuses for the high murder and crime rates. Last time I checked there were poor people from just about every "ancestral background" here in the U.S...yet they do not all have the same atrociously high violent crime rates.

Well understood. I just suspect that if there is one line of common inclusion then perhaps there are others. I also know that at several times in U.S. history, European immigrants accounted for a large portion of violent crime as well as being on the low rung of society's ladder.

I don't mean to sound confrontational, I just believe it's a valid and historical point.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by TravelerintheDark]

Originally posted by BlackOps719



Also very curious about this:


Are handguns all but illegal in Europe and Australia/NZ?


From what I understand it is all but impossible to purchase or possess a handgun. Why is that?

Because the government has insured that the people cannot ever take back the power.

Here in the Pool you wouldn't know guns are illegal as gun crime is rife! If the law was different I would certainly have a shotgun or like tucked away in a safe hiding place just in case someone wanted to make me a statistic on the crime rates. I love the fact that you can have an armed robbery taking place in a British big city and until fairly recently the first bobbies to reach the scene had to try and arrest the robbers armed with a truncheon! Of course now we have armed response police. They're brilliant. . . Just ask the Menezes family how good they are!!!!

Hi, I'm from the UK and I am pleased we have given up this so called "right" to own firearms.

Knives are next!

Originally posted by BlackOps719

I think what you are missing is the fact that the remainder of our rights havent been taken away BECAUSE we still maintain the right to bear arms.

How is that a fact? Can you prove it? Or is this what you're happier to believe?

An unarmed populous is a defenseless one, I truly believe that these crooked politicians and other assorted vermin would have long ago turned America into a complete police state had it not been for the lingering fear of trifling with a society filled with people who were able to fire back.

It may sound paranoid, but I think the 2nd amendment is the only thing holding back our government from seizing complete and total power over the people.

I've said this before on these boards. I think your 2nd amendment is a scam along similar lines to voting. I think if either of them actually meant anything they wouldn't be there. They're there to give people a sense of control.

Honestly, do you believe a government couldn't turn America into a police state without taking away your guns. You're kidding right? When was the last time you actually voted on an issue? I don't mean voted in an election but actually on an issue? I mean, how did you personally vote on the bailout? Or maybe the Patriot Acts - did you vote for them or against them? Did you tick the box for 'Iraq War: Yes' or 'Iraq War: No'? Can you remember how you voted the last time there was a vote on how intelligence agencies treat Americans on home soil and on what they could do?

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that America ploughs an obscene amount of money into military budgets and fancy toys. America has a lot of toys. Can the American people actually buy any of these toys themselves. I mean not necessarily something too exotic or prohibitively expensive but something than could, if necessary, do some serious damage against American forces, like a old but working tank with loads of boomtastic ammo. How about fixing up a small private plane with guns and the capability to drop bombs and stuff?


[edit on 28-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

Originally posted by BlackOps719
From what I understand it is all but impossible to purchase or possess a handgun. Why is that?

I would assume that is because hand guns are NOT used for hunting. I certainly don't keep my guns for hunting, I prefer handguns because I am only concerned about human predators.

Originally posted by BlackOps719

There are vast areas and abundant amounts of wildlife to hunt here in the US. In my area there are so many deer roaming around the forestry service actually encourages them to be hunted and killed due to over population.

As for me personally, I would be more prone to fish as opposed to exclusively hunting. Between the many lakes, not to mention ponds and more importantly oceans, there would be an endless supply of protein for anyone skilled enough to catch it.

Wait a minute, I thought this thread was about asking us about Europe. This is beginning to read just like all the other 'we Americans should have guns because...' type threads. I thought you wanted our perspective about guns here?

Again, in case the point was missed, if society collapses, guns aren't going to be of any real use to anyone for hunting purposes here in Britain. Some individuals perhaps, but everyone else? We could have a dozen guns each and it wouldn't make a difference as there's not much to hunt in the first place. Depending on how misanthropic you were, it could be argued that, if guns were available to everyone, the gun battles over what little hunting there was to be done would thin the population out to where it wasn't an issue anyway.

How is that a fact? Can you prove it? Or is this what you're happier to believe?

I believe it to be fact, but it is just my opinion based on the fact that I live here in the US and I see what goes on first hand. Our forefathers recognized the importance of maintaining the rights of gun ownership for the common citizen, because just like us they faced an armed and oppressive government and knew the only way to protect the rights of the people was to allow an even playing field where a common citizen was able to take up arms individually or in a militia in order to defend themselves.

And if you want proof simply take a look at the last two hundred years of American history. Not one instance of a foreign invasion or domestic enslavement by any organized government. If we didnt have an armed population it would make an already power mad government much more powerful

I've said this before on these boards. I think your 2nd amendment is a scam along similar lines to voting. I think if either of them actually meant anything they wouldn't be there. They're there to give people a sense of control.


That is YOUR opinion...not fact. While I agree that voting is a sham...the right to bear arms is very real in the fact that it poses a real means of defense against an aggressive government.

Honestly, do you believe a government couldn't turn America into a police state without taking away your guns. You're kidding right? When was the last time you actually voted on an issue? I don't mean voted in an election but actually on an issue? I mean, how did you personally vote on the bailout? Or maybe the Patriot Acts - did you vote for them or against them? Did you tick the box for 'Iraq War: Yes' or 'Iraq War: No'? Can you remember how you voted the last time there was a vote on how intelligence agencies treat Americans on home soil and on what they could do?


They could certainly try...but I like our odds as an armed populous a lot more than you folks in England. What will YOU do when your oppressive government comes knocking on your door? Reason your way out? Maybe bake some cookies and hope for the best? As I said...I like our odds a lot better. Same question...how did YOU vote on Englands participation in Iraq? Your government is falling in llock step with the US, what have your voting actions accomplished against such tyranny?



You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to know that America ploughs an obscene amount of money into military budgets and fancy toys. America has a lot of toys. Can the American people actually buy any of these toys themselves. I mean not necessarily something too exotic or prohibitively expensive but something than could, if necessary, do some serious damage against American forces, like a old but working tank with loads of boomtastic ammo. How about fixing up a small private plane with guns and the capability to drop bombs and stuff?

The North Vietnamese army managed to hold their own against the same military strength using rusty AK-47's and improvised explosives. The Afghans defeated the mighty Russian army with the same. The Taliban and the other forces in present day Iraq and Afghanistan have been holding their own using even less that that. A motivated and armed population that is fighting for their home land and their freedom to survive is more powerful than any technology or weaponry available. Read a history book some time, you will see this proven time and again.

I can't believe that you imply that us warmongering Americans read!! How dare you! LOL

Wait a minute, I thought this thread was about asking us about Europe. This is beginning to read just like all the other 'we Americans should have guns because...' type threads. I thought you wanted our perspective about guns here?

Again, in case the point was missed, if society collapses, guns aren't going to be of any real use to anyone for hunting purposes here in Britain. Some individuals perhaps, but everyone else? We could have a dozen guns each and it wouldn't make a difference as there's not much to hunt in the first place. Depending on how misanthropic you were, it could be argued that, if guns were available to everyone, the gun battles over what little hunting there was to be done would thin the population out to where it wasn't an issue anyway.

This thread was made in order to get answers from European and other nationalities of people, and was successfully doing so until now. In the response in question I was pointing out the differences between the ability to hunt and survive here in America versus England, as you had pointed out that hunting space in the UK was limited.

I was trying to demonstrate that we are in two different scenarios being that the topography and layout here in the states was much different than your UK. Not looking to stray from the topic nor was I trying to grandstand as to why Americans should own weapons. Here it is a matter of practicality to own a gun for means of hunting. Sorry if I offended you by pointing that out.

I grew up in America, in the South no less and guns are just part of the culture. When I first moved to the UK I was rather taken aback by what I at the time preceived to be a flaw in how the UK is run. I never owned a gun whilst growing up and living in America but I always knew I had the right to.

When I first left America I was actually in Switzerland, where there is also a gun culture - however the crime rate is very very low. But still most households have firearms - it was only recently that the men ( who are obligated to serve in the military ) were banned from bringing their weapons home. One of my uncles walks around with a holster in plain site and no one blinks. Young recruits are all over the place with their automatic rifles slung over their shoulders.

I've lived in the UK for almost three years now and to be honest I'm glad that the English don't have access to guns freely - they are a rather hot headed bunch *smiles good naturedly*

Today I don't believe that any one has the "right" to own a gun - owning a gun carries great responsibility.

Someone else said that gun ownership in America is why the government hasn't completely taken over - I disagree - Most Americans are complacent and happy to let their government "protect" them from the evil terrorists. They don't need to take away gun rights because the chance of a majority of Americans protesting against anything ( Excpet maybe the cancellation of their favourite TV show) is slim.

Nothing against Americans - I love many of them and frankly the complacancy is rampant in all developed countries.

As a species we have failed misrably to get our priorites in order.

Since it is illegal to own firearms in your countries, are the police or government allowed to search your home? That is why, I think, most of us here in the US are against it. It's a privacy thing.

I am not from Europe or Australia but right next door to you. I am in Canada. Our topography is similar. We have tons of open space and wilderness, as well as large cities.
I have never owned a gun.
I never wanted to own a gun.
I never missed not having a gun.
I never have the fear of someone popping out from some doorway to shove a gun in my face.
The only people who seem to have guns here are almost exclusively the Americans who slip theirs illegally over the border to rob our convenience stores or to "settle" a fight that broke out when the bars close and everyone is drunk and rowdy.
You can keep your guns. In fact I wish you would keep them in your own country. I might not be so afraid to visit your side of the border however, if you in fact got rid of them, "rights or not".
They are just plain stupid and fulfill some fantasy idea you have that is totally without reason.

Originally posted by moocowman
Violent crime is getting out of control in the UK and knife crime is bad enough without guns everywhere.

The issue becomes this with knife crime, or general unarmed thuggery crime. People are not all equal, weaker individuals won't have a chance against knife wielding criminals, or even just GROUPS of criminals.

At that point women, the elderly, or even just lone individuals realize they are very vulnerable. That's when guns become more important, they allow weaker individuals the ability to protect their homes and their person even when physically they are at a disadvantage.

Any sort of violent crime will create that problem. Personally I don't worry about getting shot at all, there are far worse things than getting shot.

Its never a good idea to ban guns for civilians, for one simple reason. The criminals who dont have guns will find a way to get them, hence criminal. Then youre stuck bringing a knife to a gunfight should something unthinkable happen. Im pretty comfortable knowing that i have a fighting chance if something were to ever go wrong, tho i pray it never happens.

It strikes me that there is a sort of paranoia rampant in the U.S., probably fed by media and folklore, that is not so elsewhere.
All this concern about the government breaking down my doors to invade my home, is just not something I have ever had occasion to even think about much less worry about. The same pretty much goes for anyone breaking down my door to do harm to me.
On the other hand I have always had a fear of weaponry for some reason. My mother always said "play with fire, die by fire" or something like that.
I think there is greater risk of the stronger bad guy taking the weapon away from the weak person and using it against them.
Better solutions include establishing good relations with neighbours who could help out when in need or trouble, make intelligent decisions regarding your daily habits and routine, and not living in a "dangerous" place like the U.S.
.... sorry, couldn't help myself on that one.
Somehow, and I am sure it is not a simple thing, but self defense is just not such a big issue outside of America or some third world places. Kinder, gentler places do really exist - right next door in fact.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by wayno]