Why Ghosts are not Real, page 5

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reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:10 PM by dave420

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

That's not what I'm saying at all! To quote Sir Isaac Newton:

I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.

Science accepts it will never know everything about the universe. Science also accepts that without evidence there is no knowledge, only guesses. Ghosts might exist, so might Bigfoot, Nessie, and David Icke. We need evidence to demonstrate it, though. The possibility is not enough to warrant belief, as a whole bunch of things could be possible - science is the system of weeding out the actual from the possible.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:14 PM by dave420

reply to post by flyingwoody

OK - we can look at Pluto's gravitational effects on other bodies in our solar system. We can also use a multitude of seperate instruments to monitor Pluto, and do this repeatedly, always getting the same result. That is rational evidence. Seeing Pluto does not prove it exists, because you could be seeing anything. It might be an asteroid, it might be an artifical satellite. To demonstrate that it is a plutoid (as it's not classed as a planet any more) in an orbit at the edge of our known solar system, the above techniques can be used - namely consistent observations on many instruments performed by many people. The scientific method

We know that emotions exist, as we can put someone in an MRI machine and watch the activity in different parts of the brain respond to different sensual stimuli. Again, we can perform this experiment time and time again with consistent results.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:16 PM by Lebowski achiever

To you ghosts do NOT exist. To me they do. Maybe YOU are the irrational one. There are so many things on this earth that are seen, monitored but cannot be scientifically be reproduced in a lab. We are just starting. I am glad to hear that you are open to the possibility that they may exist. I think we should leave it at that.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:16 PM by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by dave420

That reduces the likelyhood of it being a sensory "burp", but it's still not ruled out. Just as when many people see one of those internally-illuminated blimps and assume it's an alien spacecraft - they're still wrong, no matter how many people swear to God that it was a alien spacecraft. Believing it was an alien spacecraft is irrational.

That does not matter. They STILL SAW it. People may have different explanation for it, but still they saw it. Their senses didn't lie to them.

That tribe person might have been seeing things. That's what I'm saying. Rule that out and you have a point

No he was not seeing things. What he saw was people entering an aircraft and flying off. We know what it was, but to that tribe person, he doesn't know what it was, but he saw it clearly, albeit not understanding what it was.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:16 PM by jpm1602

dave....it is perfectly clear to me your mindset is of pure logic. I used to be that way too. Nothing I can say here will deviate you from that. I respect that. But I think we have a lot of others who will disagree with you. And I am not a big Harry Potter fan.

[edit on 8/28/2008 by jpm1602]

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:17 PM by dave420

reply to post by sickofitall2012

The energy that is our chain reaction is dissipated mainly as heat. The energy that was in your brain when you first read this post has since gone, warming your apartment ever-so-slightly. It has since been replaced with energy derrived from the last meal you ate. That will continue until the body can no longer sustain said chain reaction, and as your body starts to cool down (which is the energy that was 'you' leaving as heat, nothing else), it is not replaced, as the chain reaction has been broken.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:18 PM by dave420

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

You are very correct in this. That's why I said I'm fairly sure. It might have been a dream. I might have accidentally ingested a hallucinogenic substance. Who knows. I can only know for sure if I have independent observations made by people, corroborated by instrumentation. That's my whole point

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:19 PM by woodwytch

reply to post by dave420

Exactly !

So what's the point you're trying to make here.

You may have had experiences that you do not accept as paranormal (fine) ... so have I. But I've also had many that I know where paranormal and at the moment (as far as I know) there is no way to prove that beyond a doubt ... but there are thousands of people who 'know' and accept (and I'm not talking about the crank brigade here), that ghosts DO exist.

Can I ask you a question ? Well I'm going to anyways ...

Have you ever in your entire life had a experience of any kind (I'm not talking paranormal), that you could not express or explain fully to your family/friends or provide hard evidence that you'd really experienced it ?

Woody

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:20 PM by dave420

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

You believe without evidence. That is irrational. I don't believe due to the absence of evidence. That is rational.

Yes, there are a bunch of things on this world we don't understand, but we can repeatedly see their consitent effects - that's why science is studying them. Again, that is my whole point - that is rationality to a T.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:21 PM by sickofitall2012

reply to post by dave420

Dave do you know what an atom is exactly? They make up EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE. Sorry, but it's true.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:22 PM by dave420

reply to post by Deaf Alien

You seem to not understand what I'm saying. Seeing something does not equate to that which has been allegedly seen actually existing. Ask someone who's suffering from a fever, or who's been to Burning Man. They'll clue you right in.

May I suggest reading about the human sensory system and how it can be easily fooled? Read above for an experiment you can perform yourself that demonstrates just how easy it is.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:23 PM by dave420

reply to post by jpm1602

I hate Harry Potter

I'd like to think it's pure logic, but then I'm human, and intrinsically flawed. I'm pretty certain in this case I am being 100% logical, but I always ask to be proven wrong.

And yeah - other folks don't agree with me, but then that doesn't mean they're right or I'm wrong, or vice versa.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:24 PM by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by flyingwoody
So Dave, by your logic, a photo of pluto isn't proof that it is real. Show me proof Pluto is real. Photos and the accounts of people who have seen it aren't enough. They are irrational.

We don't know what emotions are. Give me proof that emotions exist. Your own accounts aren't enough, they are irrational.

You made a very, very good point. We can not see it with naked eye and even with ordinary telescopes. We accept the existence of Pluto without ever seeing it for ourselves. According to Dave, this is irrational.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:25 PM by dave420

reply to post by woodwytch

How do you know it was paranormal? Did you have an array of equipment ready to examine the phenomenon? Could you repeat it with consistent results? Could other people do it, too? If the answer to any of those is "no", believing it to be paranormal is irrational.

And yeah - I've experienced a lot of things I can't explain to other people. That doesn't make them other-worldly or paranormal, it just means I can't explain them. I know just how flawed my senses are. I've been to Amsterdam more times than I can remember, so I've seen my fair share of things.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:25 PM by dave420

reply to post by sickofitall2012

Subatomic particles would beg to differ.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:32 PM by sickofitall2012

reply to post by dave420

You just proved my point. Energy!!!

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:32 PM by Sonya610

Originally posted by dave420
You seem to not understand what I'm saying. Seeing something does not equate to that which has been allegedly seen actually existing. Ask someone who's suffering from a fever, or who's been to Burning Man. They'll clue you right in.

So what is your point kitten? Stop being hostile, no enemies here.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:32 PM by Lebowski achiever

reply to post by dave420

Again. It was evidence to me and it was irrefutable. It doesn't mean it did not happen because I did not have witnesses to corroborate. It does NOT mean it did not happen because I cannot reproduce it in a lab or because I cannot explain it. It is unexplained and it is something we have given a name. Ghosts. Nothing irrational about it. Scientist observe things all the time which they cannot explain but give a name anyway.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:34 PM by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Deaf Alien

You seem to not understand what I'm saying. Seeing something does not equate to that which has been allegedly seen actually existing. Ask someone who's suffering from a fever, or who's been to Burning Man. They'll clue you right in.

May I suggest reading about the human sensory system and how it can be easily fooled? Read above for an experiment you can perform yourself that demonstrates just how easy it is.

Oh I understand what you are saying. What you are essentially saying that people who have witnessed ghosts, or even full apparitions, are delusional. They DID see them. Period.

I do understand your point though. Ghosts that people claimed to have seen may not be actual ghosts. They may be something else. Hpwever, there are a lot of research on this and on NDE which are legitimate. That site I posted is one of many legitimate research on the survival after death.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 09:35 PM by jpm1602

'But I always ask to be proven wrong'. I don't really believe there is any right or wrong here dave. Nor can I explain to you why my two mutts went bug # in the three days after my Mom died. There are things....Horatio.