Why Ghosts are not Real, page 2

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reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:20 PM by dave420

reply to post by woodwytch

That is not being rational, no matter how hard you believe it. Your own experiences are about as far from evidence as you can get. Our sensory systems are so fantastically easy to fool it's almost hilarious.

So I hate to break it to you, but your claim is not rational. The fact you agree with everything else I said, and not that, should raise some red flags for you.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:22 PM by Sonya610

Originally posted by dave420
Evidence is what got you every single technological advance you use in your life, and yet some feel it perfectly acceptable to discard that notion of required evidence when it suits their presumptions of the universe, whether they are based on guesses, or a desire for something greater to exist.

I'm not attacking you - I'm attacking irrational beliefs.

Yeah, guess what Dave, I have never analyzed how the net works, or how voice travels over phone lines, or the exact chemical reactions that make guns fire. I am female, if it works I am happy. The molecular reaction seems quite trivial.

But yet...they all work just fine (most of the time). So point out the error in my belief system?

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:22 PM by Lebowski achiever

reply to post by dave420

Ah..and then we come to "reality"... I think I won't go there.

It is not irrational beliefs. Believing that ones experiences that cannot be explained away and therefore real is not irrational. It means rational thought has been part of the process but no explanation fitted the experience. Not irrational. Just unexplainable.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:22 PM by jpm1602

Most interesting thread WANTED. I will say the local of aceh bandi sp? were highly agitated after the weeks of the great tidal wave. Many said they could hear the souls of the dead at night. Screaming, crying. And most would not eat the fish for many months after that. For obvious reasons.
sp

[edit on 8/28/2008 by jpm1602]

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:23 PM by dave420

reply to post by Lebowski achiever

I've seen all kinds of stuff too - but I'm not arrogant* enough to believe everything I see or sense as being 100% real. Our senses are flawed. We see things that are not there - our brains try to make sense of everything we see, and if we see something that doesn't quite compute, our brains put 2 and 2 together and come up with eleventy quadrillion, and hey-presto, a ghost/demon/UFO/David Icke is born.

* I say 'arrogant' in the sense that I trust my senses 100% explicitly, as if I'm somehow elevated above the rigors of evidence, not in a pejorative sense.

I'm not attacking you - I'm simply pointing out that personal experience is not evidence, no matter how real it was to us, and belief in anything without evidence is inherently irrational. If it was, you'd have to believe Arnold Schwarzenegger is a cyborg from the future, and that Leonardo Di Caprio died on the Titanic.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:24 PM by Soulstone

reply to post by Sonya610

There is a flaw in another one of your beliefs again. I have done what you asked. I did for 21 years of my life! Sure strange things have happened. I have caught an EVP on tape. But that is far from proof of life after death. Something I have searched for since I was a child.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:25 PM by dave420

reply to post by whatukno

Your own experiences are not evidence. You can be easily fooled. Trusting one's own senses and experiences as definitive evidence is intrinsically irrational.

Your entire second and third paragraphs are clearly your unfounded opinion, yet you frame it as fact. Can you see how that is detached from reality? Now, if you could actually offer up some evidence to support said claims, we'd have a discussion going

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:27 PM by whatukno

reply to post by Soulstone

What if you didn't and or you could not accept that you are dead? What then? Wouldn't you stick around to find out why? What if on the way to the other side you got lost? What if you wanted more to say goodbye to your loved ones?

What if you just liked this plane better?

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:27 PM by Sonya610

Originally posted by Soulstone
There is a flaw in another one of your beliefs again. I have done what you asked. I did for 21 years of my life! Sure strange things have happened. I have caught an EVP on tape. But that is far from proof of life after death. Something I have searched for since I was a child.

First of all, you know what is real. You seek proof to glorify your ego. Do you need me to prove to you that the sun will rise tomorrow? Would it make you feel better?

Beyond that, this thread has gotten busy, instead of a small intimate gathering it has turned into a rave. I am out (I do not like crowds).

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:28 PM by dave420

reply to post by Alora

And I put it to you that someone with more knowledge of the human sensory system could easily explain what you saw.

You are not infallible. What you see is not what exists, at least not all the time. That caveat instantly relegates your experiences to an evidential precursor, not evidence itself.

We demand the scientific method in every part of our lives that directly affects us, yet some (yourself included) seem quick to shun it when it gets in the way of more fantastical thinking. I can see why you do it - I did when I was younger. Then I realised it's massively hypocritical to suspend a spotless methodology when it doesn't suit me.

I'd rather live in a dull world I know exists, than wander around a fantastic world I don't. And the known, proven world isn't even dull!

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:29 PM by jpm1602

I used to believe my senses implicitly to dave. 23 yr biomed tech. Used to pcbs, software problems and electromechanical glithches. That was until the day a little 'friend' came to visit. The shadow critter at the back door. My reality was totally blown off its hinges. And so was my black lab who had to chase the beastie into oblivion. I would not be quite so smug. There are things Horatio.....

[edit on 8/28/2008 by jpm1602]

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:30 PM by Lebowski achiever

reply to post by Soulstone

I think you are equating Ghosts with intelligent beings. They can't really be intelligent. They have no brain! You should see it more like a form of energy. An energy that can latch on to a person and use their energy to manifest itself (poltergeist manifestations... There has been some extensive research on this Phenomenon and it was found that mostly Poltergeists manifested themselves in households where teenagers were present) or an energy that manifests itself as a recording. OR a sentient being that uses energy to manifest itself more subtly than a poltergeist. It is only a shadow, if you will, of its former self.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:31 PM by dave420

reply to post by Sonya610

Just because something can't be explained doesn't make it rational to make up your own explanation and present it as fact. It simply remains an unknown. And there might be many people out there who can explain it.

It seems you've placed your own experiences on a pedestal of untouchability, as if they are never wrong, can never be misunderstood, and are always 100% accurate portrayals of existence. I'm afraid they are none of that, but fallible, and often wrong.

Or have you never lost your keys, never mis-read something, or been tricked by an optical illusion?

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:32 PM by Soulstone

reply to post by Sonya610

No I don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow. It is my belief that it will. BUT A BELIEF IS DIFFERENT FROM THE TRUTH! You decide to believe. You are seeing something out of the normal and just placing your own wants to make sense of it. I have seen strange orbs which could easily be an eye issue. Maybe I was hit on the head too much as a kid. I have recorded an EVP as I've said. None of these things mean ghosts! Yet it does for some people! Obviously because they want to believe or think they have some type of power.

Are you leaving for the reason you gave, or simply because you cannot handle the pressure of a heated debate?

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:33 PM by Simplynoone

Ok so ghosts are something that I could believe are real ...
My questions are WHY is there just a few ghosts ...WHO becomes a ghost ...who determines who will be a ghost etc etc ........and what on earth are they doing it for ? I see no real purpose for them to be wandering around like that ...........
Also are they demons being seen who may pretend to be loved ones ..Or are they angels who come and are seen of some people ..Maybe the good ghosts are angels and the bad ones *ones who make scary noises and scare people etc ...maybe demons ..

Not real sure about Ghosts yet ..but I do think something is up with them ..

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:33 PM by dave420

reply to post by Sonya610

Because thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of folks around the world can answer those questions. And I notice you haven't made up explanations for, say, the net ('it's magical pixies travelling down the wires, with tiny cards with websites on them') - which is exactly what you're doing when you say that ghosts exist.

It's fine to not know what something is. It's not fine to make up an explanation with no logical basis - that is irrational.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:34 PM by dave420

reply to post by Simplynoone

Before you can answer any of those questions, you have to demonstrate ghosts exist. Otherwise you are engaging in a futile exercise, stacking guesses on guesses.

I could believe ghosts exist, and I'm quite happy to not do so until proven wrong.

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:34 PM by Sonya610

Originally posted by dave420
It seems you've placed your own experiences on a pedestal of untouchability, as if they are never wrong, can never be misunderstood, and are always 100% accurate portrayals of

Actually it is like this Dave. You exist in MY reality. You ONLY exist in my reality. If you are not typing in response to my posts, or being broad minded if I do not read that which you have typed, you simply do not exist. So yeah, whatever I perceive is reality.

Prove me wrong. : )

reply posted on 28-8-2008 @ 08:35 PM by Lebowski achiever

reply to post by dave420

well, a personal experience is evidence to that person. I totally get that it is not evidence to you. I am not trusting my senses 100% either. No way! That would be too scary. However, there have been experiences that had nothing to do with the senses at all. I can relay them but they will only be proof to ME so there is no point. I am not trying to convince you either... I just KNOW they exist. Simple and plain. It could also be thought arrogant to discount the experiences of others just because you haven't.