Raising Kids Without Religion... A cop-out?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Buddah? There is God and Satan. Do you ever wonder why all the other religions other than Christianity all have the same symbol or "mark" to them? Does that strike you as odd?

No, it doesn't. It was a COPY. What strikes me as odd is your belief in something so ridiculous. I'm not claiming that I know how the universe was created, but I am claiming that I have a pretty good idea of how it WASN'T.

If your book is correct, then we're ALL going to hell. If not all, then most. And if winning a place in heaven means spending my life as a slave, I'll gladly take my spot in hell.

If he created us with the intention of bringing us back to heaven, couldn't he have spared us the BS and just kept us in heaven to begin with?

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I will tell you one thing... I wish my parents have never forced religion on me. I still have problems even to this day.

My father was a baptist pastor. My mom was a teacher at a christian school.

There are many times when I refused to go to church and I got punished for it. I was dragged to the church.

Please, please do not force religion on kids. This is child abuse.

Didn't God tell you to "Honor your father and mother"?

It wasn't "child abuse", you were rebellious.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
I will tell you one thing... I wish my parents have never forced religion on me. I still have problems even to this day.

My father was a baptist pastor. My mom was a teacher at a christian school.

There are many times when I refused to go to church and I got punished for it. I was dragged to the church.

Please, please do not force religion on kids. This is child abuse.

haha! I think we were seperated at birth.. This is exactly what I grew up with. Baptist preacher dad and mom was christian school teacher.

Got punished as well when I would "sneak away" and skip SS. My sisters and I were barely even allowed to miss when we were sick. I came down with mono and the day the symptoms started was on a sunday. Of course mom didn't believe me at first until AFTER I had suffered sitting through another lesson about sacrificing for the lord.

I respect my parents, love and appreciate them... but I still struggle as well wondering if I am making the wrong choice by turning my back on the religion. Ultimately though, I have to use my intelligence and my intelligence points strongly toward religion as being a control mechanism.

There is little sense in putting one's faith into something outside of you, but it makes all the sense in the world to place that trust in yourself.

Originally posted by MrGrieves

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Buddah? There is God and Satan. Do you ever wonder why all the other religions other than Christianity all have the same symbol or "mark" to them? Does that strike you as odd?

No, it doesn't. It was a COPY. What strikes me as odd is your belief in something so ridiculous. I'm not claiming that I know how the universe was created, but I am claiming that I have a pretty good idea of how it WASN'T.

If your book is correct, then we're ALL going to hell. If not all, then most. And if winning a place in heaven means spending my life as a slave, I'll gladly take my spot in hell.

If he created us with the intention of bringing us back to heaven, couldn't he have spared us the BS and just kept us in heaven to begin with?

That response is chocked full of straw man arguments and appeal to ridicule.

Wanna rephrase it?

1. It's "rediculous' to YOU. That doesn't mean it is in fact rediculous. Appeal to authority and appeal to ridicule.

2. I'm not a slave, I'm a servant, BY CHOICE and free will. Straw man argument.

3. Satan screwed up that plan, that WAS the plan to begin with.

3.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yet people's prayers are constantly unanswered. Why would god choose to answer YOUR prayer while ignoring those of starving children or worse? This isn't a perfect world, but prayer is not the answer to the problems of the world. If you believe it helped you then that's great. But just because people pray doesn't mean god answers or even cares (If god is even real to begin with). If god was really omnipotent, why would we be having this discussion? When people pray an amputee's limbs don't suddenly appear. And, honestly, To think prayer helps anybody is kind of delusional. If god is omnipotent and he really does have a plan for all of us, then it doens't friggin matter what we think of god. God's "will" will eventually become reality regardless of what we insignificant humans think at all on this tiny hunk of rock floating through interstellar space.

-ChriS

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalWere you following Christ with all your heart in everything you did? Were you living below your means? were you in debt at the time? Just because you tithe that doesn't mean you can spend up all your availible capital and expect God to give it back, part of following Christ is also living up to all his other wise teachings.

Can a gambler tithe and expect to be blessed with richness? It's not simply tithing only, it's following everything you can possibly follow and tithing as well. See what I mean? Many tims we are also punished financially.

Funny how god can promise something like give tithe and he will bless me, but the minute he doesn't bless me, suddenly it is bc there are all these stipulations that were on it I wasn't informed of when the promise was "put out there."

OR... just maybe bc it wasn't god that made that promise, but man who claimed to be speaking on behalf of god.

You missed my point.

I said were you faithfully following God at that same time you were tithing?

And the example I gave was gambling, lest say a person tithed, then spent everything else on gambling, or alcohol, or drugs. Or that person lived in debt, something God tells us not to do.

So then is it our fault for it or Gods? That was the point of my Q.

This is getting out of hand. Before this thread nobody was preaching anything, therefor I had no problems with anyone. As far as I can tell, the Christians in here aren't hurting anyone. As long as you don't bring your fantasy world on me, there's no problemo. I just didn't want these empty claims to effect the mother and child of which this thread was about. It doesn't seem like it's phasing them, probably because they are sensible, REALISTIC people, so I'm not worried about it.

I apologize for getting so heated over this. There's no need for such malice in this already doomed world.

With that said, goodnight.

reply to post by Deaf Alien


You don't need belief to know they exist, my point is you can believe in something without seeing it with your eyes by experiencing it's effects. And you stated we agree.

Now, as far as all religions other than Christianity having the same "mark" to them I posted the video. I don't think I did it right so I will just do it with a link I guess. Still kinda new here. And there are 5 videos, I think they are all about 5 minutes long. But notice all other religions other than Christianity ahve the exact same "mark". Or symbol. And remember, the Bible tells us that anything apart from Jesus is of Satan. Here:

Part1

part 2

part 3

part 4

part 5

And I leave Catholicsm out of Christianity when I use the term, I don't consider the religion itself Christian. Rome has greatly perverted what Christ taught.

And then I read the replies... sigh. I give up on people. Why every time you're pushed into a corner, you claim "Straw Man" or "Misinterpretation"? If you think you're so special that God answered your prayers instead of the prayers of people who NEEDED it, should I grovel at your feet? I'm sure you'll find a way to counter this with another lame passage from the bible, so I won't stay up waiting for a response.

I'll get back to this in the morning.

Originally posted by MrGrieves
And then I read the replies... sigh. I give up on people. Why every time you're pushed into a corner, you claim "Straw Man" or "Misinterpretation"? If you think you're so special that God answered your prayers instead of the prayers of people who NEEDED it, should I grovel at your feet? I'm sure you'll find a way to counter this with another lame passage from the bible, so I won't stay up waiting for a response.

I'll get back to this in the morning.

I call "straw man" when it happens. When someone takes something I say, twists it around to suit thir point of view, then responds to their made up version.

It's very relevant to point out. It separates "debates" from "arguments".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Didn't God tell you to "Honor your father and mother"?

It wasn't "child abuse", you were rebellious.

This made me laugh, I'm sorry.

So you mean that if the parents beat a kid to a pulp, does that kid still have to "honor his father and mother?"

Originally posted by Deaf Alien

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Didn't God tell you to "Honor your father and mother"?

It wasn't "child abuse", you were rebellious.

This made me laugh, I'm sorry.

So you mean that if the parents beat a kid to a pulp, does that kid still have to "honor his father and mother?"

See this Mr. Geives??? ^^^^

This is your classic straw man argument. NOWHERE did I claim that A: it's in the Bible for a parent to beat their child "to a pulp". Of course that's wrong, and illegal. B: He uses his made up claim that he attributed to me to negate the fact that God commands children to obey their fathers and mothers. Spanking I think is good, my father did it, and when he was done he hugged me and told me he loved me. It was punishment, and he never used a foreign object. I grew up never wanting to disobey them cuz I didn't like being spanked.

But I guess to you I was "backed into a corner" by my own words which I never said to begin with...

Please, please do not force religion on kids. This is child abuse.

You claimed this was child abuse "forcing religion on kids".

I claimed that was not, you were "punished" for disobeying them.

How did you twist "punished" into me claiming "beating them to a pulp"???

Oh I get it, I was "backed into a corner".

Originally posted by MrGrieves
As far as I can tell, the Christians in here aren't hurting anyone. As long as you don't bring your fantasy world on me, there's no problemo.

Where have you been? Don't you get worried when TV preachers try to get all gays, atheists, and evolution teachers in jail? Don't you get worried when Christians try to (sometimes successfully) influence politics? Don't you get worried when they want theocracy? History has shown that christians have done horrible things to pagans, any one who doesn't follow the church, etc.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
This is your classic straw man argument. NOWHERE did I claim that A: it's in the Bible for a parent to beat their child "to a pulp". Of course that's wrong, and illegal. B: He uses his made up claim that he attributed to me to negate the fact that God commands children to obey their fathers and mothers. Spanking I think is good, my father did it, and when he was done he hugged me and told me he loved me. It was punishment, and he never used a foreign object. I grew up never wanting to disobey them cuz I didn't like being spanked.

But I guess to you I was "backed into a corner" by my own words which I never said to begin with...

Sighs, you missed my point. This is not a straw man argument. My point is, if a kid doesn't want to go to church, that is his choice. When a parent force his kid to go to church or believe what the parent believes, then that is abuse.

What if your parents were in a kooky cult, and they forced you to come with them to that cult? I guess you have to since you said we have to honor our parents right?

Originally posted by asmeone2

Her opinion is that this is a cop-out because I do not intend to teach them moral values in accordance with any religious values (specifically, hers.) I beleive it is more of a cop-out to attempt to force children to beleive as you do, instead of allowing them the opportunity to live a bit and form a sincere dedication to their faith. I would think that God would want true converts, not drones.

Thoughts?

I agree. But don't be suprised to find that your kids start to question the existance of God and end up atheists. Will you follow your conviction and allow them to "not" believe?

Your mothers opinion about moral values is one aspect of religion that gets me grinding my teeth. This arrogant assumption that only "beleivers" are moral! Some of the most immoral people I have met are bible thumping churchgoes.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Thank you for the videos. I already know about the first 4 parts. I have no doubt that christian churches will try to pass off this jesus as the real messiah and try to control the world. In fact, they are doing it right now. And, no, don't say that it's the catholic church who is doing this. It's ALL christian churches.

I found video part 5 especially interesting. Thanks. I will study it more later, especially that hand sign. I wonder if there's talking in that video? I am glad that they put in words there so I can read since I am deaf. But if there's talking in that video, let me know.

I clicked this thread expecting....well, im not sure, but it wasnt good.

Then i found an interesting, and refreshing discussion which could basically be summed up with the idea 'kids should be allowed to decide for them selves'.

I couldnt agree more. I excitedly skipped forward a few pages, skimming the thread, all excited to reply about the warm fuzzy feeling id gotten form a civil discussion, with religious and non-religious people contributing happily.

What a dissapointment i didnt get to post my original thoughts.

Originally posted by psychedeliack
teach them morals, and then bring them to several different churches, monasteries, and temples and explain to them the different religions of the world from a non bias perspective, then they can decide for themselves.

exactly!
i dont have children though if i do one day, will do just as you describe.

i was recently in India and a man i met said when i asked his religion "i am muslim raised though i am also every religion combined". that really struck a cord with me. thats what we need in this world, more people ready to accept all regardless of what 'religion' they are. i mean really if you really stop and thinnk about how stupid it is to judge on religion you'll prob kick yourslef.

I think quite a while back in this thread the most common sense answer came up:
If you are a follower of a certain belief system, you'd be a pretty odd person to at least not lead your child towards that belief system. Otherwise it would seem that you don't actually follow that belief system yourself, and are unsure as to it's 'correctness'.
If you are not a follower of any specific belief system, then you'd probably want to bring your kid along for the ride while you search. If you have an indifferent attitude to 'searching', your kid will probably pick up his/her beliefs from somewhere else, or will get an indifferent attitude as well.

Originally posted by justamomma
There is little sense in putting one's faith into something outside of you, but it makes all the sense in the world to place that trust in yourself.

This statement made me sad. If we kept it all to ourself, it'd be a pretty lonely sad world. No sense of community, brotherhood, higher purpose, etc.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Sighs, you missed my point. This is not a straw man argument. My point is, if a kid doesn't want to go to church, that is his choice. When a parent force his kid to go to church or believe what the parent believes, then that is abuse.

if my parents had listened to me when I said I didn't want to eat vegetables, I'd be a pretty scrawny and weak person now. Now you might say that vegetables are good for you, while religion is bad, but then again, that is coming down to personal opinion. Another parent may consider spiritual well-being just as important as mental well-being. A child is the responsibility of his/her parents. Just because a kid doesn't want to do something, doesn't mean it shouldn't.