Originally posted by AshleyD
It is kind of off topic as well. That really fits better into the oh... dozens of other threads on that subject instead of this one which is about raising children with a religious upbringing in general.

I second this, it's off-topic.

Not to mention that that is really condescending, and bashing or debunking religion wasn't my intent.

Originally posted by asmeone2

Where do these "morals" come from? Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.

Name one that is not.

Put the lid back down?

That isn't a moral. lol

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by asmeone2

Where do these "morals" come from? Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.

Name one that is not.

Put the lid back down?

That isn't a moral. lol

In who's opinion??

In who's opinion??

Almost any given man's, apparently.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by asmeone2]

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalIf I were "there" and had "proof" then I also would have ZERO "faith". So instead I read the testimony of the men who were actually there.

One either thinks all these men are liars or one can assume they wrote the books inspired by God. I lose NOTHING by dying in faith for naught. I lose my soul for not having faith that they told the truth. If I'm led by God to tell the truth now why shouldn't I believe they didn't feel the exact same way.

Remember something, these apostles were hunted down constantly by everyone from the Romans to the Pharisees trying to kill them. Do you honestly think they would go through that for a conspiracy they thought up?? I sure don't. The only thing that would have led them to endure all that they did was if they saw the miracles firsthand. They KNEW that Jesus was God, they witnessed it all firsthand and didn't waver an inch in the face of death.

I can put my faith in that for sure.

Many ppl died for many different types of belief, so that to me isn't proof of anything except that man will give up his most precious gift based on a "hunch."

And how are you sure they didn't waver? because you were told that?

Hell, I could put my faith in Santa Claus and it doesn't #1. Make the legend based on actual man anymore true and #2. does nothing to "save" me from myself

Things get twisted and obscured over time and I just don't understand the mindset that ppl have to trust the words of ppl they never met, can't prove even existed, and control through fear (bc even though you or others may not try to control by fear, the bible certainly sounds like the same tactics that 'dubbya' uses to control.... get them to fear and you get them to follow).

The idea that we are to be saved by a man who no longer exists (if he even did) is as fantasy based as believing in Santa Claus (who, btw, you would not argue that the lies being fed to kids about him are based on an actual man but still lies none the less).

Answer me a Q please.

Why do you all continually say we were saved or led to God by "fear" when we consistently say we came to know him by "love".

You cannot even believe what I say and we are talking to eachother in REAL TIME. lol

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Do you realize you are using "faith" to believe it isn't true? And in fact, it takes more faith to believe it false that to believe it true?

Heck, in a court of law if I had 6 eye witness testimonies from people who claimed I said that I would kill a certain man I'd be found guilty by a jury.

Yes, I do know what I'm using my faith for.

I suppose this is one of those magic moment where I'm sposed to go, OMG! I've been misapplying my faith all along! It's time to praise JESUS!

Um. No.

Your six witneses wouldn't get you convicted of murder unless you had actually committed murder, and even then, the jury would rest more upon whether or not the evidence corroborates their stories and there are not inconsistancies between them. I'm not sure what your point is there.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalNothing will convince you if you want to believe it isn't true. Absolutely nothing.

Do you realize you are using "faith" to believe it isn't true? And in fact, it takes more faith to believe it false that to believe it true?

Heck, in a court of law if I had 6 eye witness testimonies from people who claimed I said that I would kill a certain man I'd be found guilty by a jury.

Huh? NOTHING?? I don't agree with this. You speak about his disciples who apparently got to see it, so if this is true, then wouldn't it stand to reason that if I WANT to believe, I should be able to see as well??

Your faith is nothing more than a belief in what some men said that you have never met. That to me sounds foolish and unwise, if for no other reason than the implications it could mean for you and other "believers" when/if the truth is that this was a big pile of lies to bring you into submission and rob you of experiencing life as you were meant to experience it.

I could no more separate my religious beliefs from my children, than I could separate myself from oxygen.


I am Catholic. I teach catechism class, my children attend catholic school. We live our lives in tandem with the church calendar. We celebrate the feasts and seasons as a family. We pray to God and He touches our lives in valuable and amazing ways.

I surround myself with Catholic friends. We pray together for each other and for our children. Our children even pray with us.

I can not teach history to my children, without them understanding the history of our religion. I can not teach science to my children without the knowledge the God created the whole universe for us. I can not teach biology without explaining how science can not bring forth life, only God can. I can not teach art with out imparting the knowledge that inspiration is a gift from the Holy Spirit.

As a Catholic we have the wonderful history of embracing the arts and sciences FOR the glory of God. (dont derail me here about how the church forbade new ideas...mistakes will always be made by humans, but the new ideas were brought forth because the catholic church was investing in scientists, astronomers, artists, etc.)and time heals.

I can not travel to new cities and teach their history to my children without feeling the presence of religion and how that effects us all. The missions in California, the Jesuits who founded so many cities down the Mississippi river, the Jesuits who settled in Quebec. The towns named after our glorious catholic saints: San Bernadino, St. Louis, San Francisco, Santa Anna, St. Ignace, St. Petersburg, St. Joseph, St. Xavier, Santa Rosa, San Jacinto, San Buenaventura (Ventura), St. Augustine, San Diego, San Carlos, Our Lady Queen of Angels,(aka:Los Angeles), Kosmodenyansk, San Jose, etc...

There are 60 cities named after catholic Saints in California, thanks to the priests who founded the cities and missions there, There are 21 cities in Missouri named after catholic saints, thanks to the Jesuits who evangelized and settled many communities there. 27 cities in TX are named after Catholic saints.

Other cites are named after catholic ideas:Corpus Christi ( the body of Christ...which is the epitome of our faith), Santa Fe( Holy Faith), and Sacramento (Sacrament),

Ask my children and they can tell the stories of 90% of these holy men and women. It is really the history and reality of our existence. I can not deny it. I live it, I think it and I breathe my religion. I love God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I pray to the saints that they may intercede for me, I expect miracles and I see miracles. How could I deny my children this rich experience?

Living without this would be like living in a black and white world, instead of the real world that is rich with music, history, culture, color and dimension. Look at all the people over time who dedicated their lives and work to the church. How could we dare to know better than Mozart, who wrote his music for the church, Michelangelo who painted for the church, St. Isaac Jogues who was martyred for the church? We dare say these men wasted their lives on a silly idea?! What about those devoted monks who painstakingly copied the scriptures, letter by letter, word by word, illuminating them for future generations? These people did these beautiful endeavors, because they Believed!!!!!
I know many will disagree with me, please be gentle.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by asmeone2

Where do these "morals" come from? Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.

Name one that is not.

Put the lid back down?

That isn't a moral. lol

In who's opinion??

It's polite. It's considerate. It's not absolute. Now if you taught them to be polite or considerate to others in everything you do then that would be a "moral".