Parents Not Parenting, Are You Guilty??

reply to post by Sonya610 and post by ImaginaryReality1984

I'm combining responses because you both seem to get it. It's not about hurting the children, it's about teaching them respect for others.

All parents have a choice: discipline their children, or don't discipline them. If you discipline children, they learn that you are in control and there are certain things, certain kinds of behavior that are not allowed in society. If you do not discipline the children, they learn that while they may make others angry, there will not be any real repercussions.

In the former, the children grow up to be happy, productive people who can make friends and be successful in whatever they choose to pursue. In the latter, they will be selfish, angry, bitter people who believe that the world exists for them and for them alone. They will never be truly happy, nor will they be successful.

There is a third choice, and that is child abuse. Discipline refers to correction without intent to harm, whereas abuse is infliction of pain (mentally or physically) for the purpose of revenge or displaced anger release, with no thought given toward educating the child. Obviously, this is far different from discipline, but the two can take the same forms in different degrees (spanking as compared to beating).

Child abuse is a terrible thing, and unfortunately, it leads to some people who do not know the difference between discipline and abuse confusing the two. Discipline is thereby delayed until the children are too old and have learned too much about getting their way regardless of others that they can only be corrected by abuse. At that point, they are not only ruined for life, but the abuse that follows as parents desperately try to get back some control for their children reinforces the arguments of those who delayed discipline in the first place.

Therefore, I blame the pacifists that demand an end to corporal punishment as a whole for the problem with child abuse.

TheRedneck

reply to post by the titor experience

so you are saying that spanking a child is wrong? just seems like you are trying to bash theredneck. i know sometimes being a parent isnt pretty, but we have to do it. personally, i spanked my kids sarting around age 2 also, my entire family screaming at me, what are you doing. it was nothing more than a pat on the butt, just enough to make them realize what they did wrong. and now 5 years later, guess what........it worked just like i said it would, and now my entire family admits they were wrong and i had the right idea.....my children are very respectful. they don know how to hate, they only know how to love. not to mention i back up my own actions by showing my kids i love them, like taking them to a park or playing catch with them, then we go home and i tell them to clean their room. physically correcting your kids can be bad, but not if you back it up with positive reinforcement also....

I'm only almost through college... so I'm the generation this thread is marking as "weak", "self serving", and "entitlement crazed". It's quite true. Even at a top-twenty nationally-ranked private university (Vanderbilt) there are hordes of weaklings. Whether from rich or poor backgrounds, there are very few emotionally strong people there, and even fewer with a good work ethic (even in the School of Engineering). If these are the top, we have serious problems.

I was raised by some hardcore hippies that made it out okay financially, and I feel that if I was a more normal child I would be on par with the rest. As it happens, I was prophesied by an old Chinese woman before birth (I should start a thread) and have an IQ over 150 (according to Duke University psychiatrists) so I was never given quarter if I failed. Any failure in life was not forgiven and I have thus succeeded over and over again. Also, my father's excellent work ethic (due to a short prison stay for growing marijuana) has given me my mantra: "No rest for the wicked."

I believe you should let kids know that life is hard and that if you feel good you're not working hard enough. I also believe it's a father's duty to be the "bad guy" and show rage every once in a while so that the mother, who presumably has more of a watch, can say, "I'll tell your father." The only thing I wish my parents had told me is that smart people are never doing what they know how to do. The dumb people do trained, repetitive jobs, while the intelligent are constantly researching things very few or no one knows. (Don't get cocky, I don't mean conspiracy theories!)

PS: Guy I know-
I get him an internship 'cause he failed to get any others (pull my connections). I tell him to dress "business casual" for the interview. He thinks this is t-shirt and shorts. I correct him and tell him to wear a button-down collared shirt and slacks. He shows up in flip-flops! He doesn't thank me, yet my parents give him a place to stay over the summer. He doesn't thank them. He's not interested in doing a good job. He just wants to put this on his resume, which he lies on anyway. THIS is the current generation, folks! Merry Christmas!

i am 14,and WAS NOT raised like this...

although i know some people that have,they are usually the ones without friends etc because they dont know how to share,how to compromise,and how to take the bad with the good.

if everyone was like this,id move elsewhere,because seriously,its NO FUN being around someone who just moans about what is actually a very good lot in life (even if,like me you live on a council estate)

like i said to one of these moaners....at least were not in zimbabwe , sudan , iraq etc

reply to post by LateApexer313


My daughter is now 7, I asked her why she was spelling words so funny(by funny I mean wrong) She had no idea that she was spelling incorrectly.

I asked her teacher and was told they do not correct spelling anymore, it hurts the self esteem of some children, so they cut that out.

WTF? Screw their self-esteem, correct them now retards! Let them play dodge ball, so what if little tina gets hit and knocked down, learn to dodge, duck, dive and dodge, thats the game.

The Liberal wussy mentality has pervaded even our schools now at the lowest level. I have a friend with kids in Alaska, his oldest must take a rifle to school every day and know how to use it because of the polar bears trying to eat him. The liberals would take the gun and give his kid a noise makers or something stupid instead.

I became a dad at 35. While my wife and I were awaiting the birth of our daughter we noticed much of what you are talking about with other kids and, basically, vowed that our child wouldn't behave like that.

She's 2.6 years old now and I think we are doing ok. She behaves so good in public that it's amazing. I think we are learning as we go but there are just some things we don't let her get away with; screaming for no reason, being rude and we only let her get her way when she's been well behaved. We've taught her to say please and thank you; when your child tells you thank you, it's amazing.

We eat out a lot and sometimes she gets a bit rowdy but for the most part it is just saying hi to fellow diners. I can't believe the dirty looks we get for letting our daughter smile and laugh while we are eating. I can only think "they don't have kids"... on the other hand she's made quite a few friends with her amiable demeanor.

I've learned a few things about discipline as well. First, she doesn't respond to physical punishment. She used to tell me to "shut up". At first, I swatted her mouth. She'd cry and cry and then later she'd try the "shut up" again. Finally, we just decided to handle it a different way. When she'd try it I'd say "I dont' like it, say "be quiet"". She'd get a pouty look instead of crying. Now, instead of "shut up" she says "be quiet, Ok!"
I can't really argue with her when I told her to say it...

Any who, I'm rambling. I do spank her but have learned that she responds better to a stern look. It's a lot of consistant work but it's worth it. I wonder if that is what the real problem is; parents just not taking the time to figure out what discipline their kids appreciate. so, instead of figuring it out they just spank away (like my dad) or they do nothing (which in my opinion is worse than spanking).

Not to mention too many people think they know how to be good parents to your kids... ? So what if you have a child, unless you have a hundred of them you probably don't know anything about mine becuase as far as I've seen they are completely different, each and every one. Wow, I could go on and on so I'll leave it for now.

reply to post by WarBow


Its funny, you are right. I have 3 girls with a boy on the way, he will not be some weak willed, takin over by feminism male, he will play with gap guns and ride bigwheels...do they still make cap guns?

Had this chat a few weeks ago with someone.

look back to the 40's/50's. discipline was everything, in the home and in school.
teachers and policemen AND PARENTS had a DUTY to give a child a slap round the back of the ear without repercussions.

i am 35 and i remember Primary school, if i was bad, i got the belt/cane
it 100% stopped me doing it again.

when we as a society (worldwide) stopped doing this, we failed big time.

i think kids that were disciplined in the in the 40's/50's made sure they did not do this to thier kids in the 80's/90's, and so on, and so on.

i have 2 sons, 14 and 16. once my olders (4 years ago) stole £10 from his mums purse. what did i do ? i took him to a police station and got him locked in a cell for an hour. boy was that the best thing i done for him !!

sometimes tough love works.

basically, we as people, now cant smack a child.

we live in a world where we all complain about Yob culture (and its VERY bad here in the UK) but refuse to allow each other to deal with it.

we have tied our own hands, and now with the "pc friendly" world we live in, we cant no change back

[edit on 16/7/2008 by shauny]

The biggest problem that we had with my (almost) 14 yr. old and her 15 yr. old couson was the over-use and abuse of their cell phones and computer time. And it finally got to a point this summer where we (my sister and I) took all of that away. We were afraid that it was getting to a point where they were losing the ability to interact socially with their friends. I think it's a big problem with kids these days. When they do see their friends they don't know how to act/interact with each other.

We live in a world of technology, it's not all bad, but we have to limit the exposure that our kids have with technology of today. It's tough to limit those things in the summer, so we keep them busy. Kids get into too much trouble when they have too much time on their hands.

Rush

Originally posted by WarBow




Not to mention too many people think they know how to be good parents to your kids... ?

this is right, every child is different and needs different means of discipline undeniably. which is why i got pissed at my family when they had problems with the way i deal with children, they are all different and i know this. some might need a swat on the butt, some maybe a look, others maybe just a verbal reminder like "hey you know you shouldnt do that" .......learn your kids mentality, its part of being a parent.....i thought that was obvious but i guess not.

Ok, so you point out some problems, but I think your root cause analysis is completely flawed. Watch and I'll point this out below:

Originally posted by LateApexer313
A disturbing trend has been growing since the 60's, and as one who was born in the 60's I can look back and see the developments and the implications. The "Do it if it feels good" generation, those of us born in the 60's and 70's along with the "Me Generation" of people who were born in the 80's and 90's are now raising this nation's children and the human beings they are turning out are more flawed, fragile, weak, and have the largest sense of self-entitlement then any generation before them.

Ok this part just makes you sound like a misanthrope. This is probably the biggest issue I have with your post. The other issues you call out below are occuring, but for a completely different reason than you post above.

Stay with me...

Whole school districts now have thrown out the "red pens" that used to correct grammar, spelling, punctuation and facts. There is now such a thing as the "let them learn spelling the words various ways to let their creativity flow" rhetoric I have experienced in my own family. My niece who is 8 years old, doesn't have to learn how to spell words correctly anymore. Her teacher explained it to my sister-in-law this way, "We're so glad they even want to write that we are choosing to let spelling errors slide so it doesn't get in the way with their love of writing."

There was even a thread on ATS not too long ago about some talk in one school district of "shortening long words" like "banana and asparagus" due to the children "not being able to spell them. What hogwash!

I was completely floored and disgusted when I was told this, matter-of-factly by my sister-in-law, who herself has a master's degree in education and who agrees with this new teaching method and isn't concerned about the long term ramifications.

Not sure why your sister-in-law doesn't care, but the main thing I have noticed is that the people who want to say "let them be creative" feel insecure themselves. I once knew someone who wanted to be an artist who didn't believe in "technique" at all, to the exclusion of learning anything. She didn't get very far.

I also knew a kid who was very creative but didn't trust in his abilities enough to take a creative writing class. he claimed he didn't need it, but time proved him very wrong.

What you are noticing is the masses reactions to the demands of rectitude and perfection placed upon them by the mass marketing which states *YOU MUST BE PERFECT* The other effect is that people become workaholics, burn themselves out, or turn to performance enhancing drugs.

The real issue here is not the humans in the system, but the human behaviors being elicited by the system itself. You see, there are two very different reactions here, both of them are extreme. One is "Let the kids spell it however they want" the other is "Browbeat the child till he gets it right!"

I personally don't agree with either of them. I prefer to stay on task until the subject matter is learned correctly, and then move along. However our school system is not conducive to this type of teaching. It is *way* too mechanized and inflexible for that.

Which brings me to my next point...

Kids who are involved with sports are now being taught that everyone on the team is equal and scores are not being kept because "there are no winners or losers." Parents are getting thrown out and banned from practices for fighting over the games that are being scored, screaming and ranting and even having fist fights with referees and coaches.

This doesn't have anything at all to do with the concept of equality. As someone who works with kids programs a lot, I can tell you this is due to the following:

1. Parents are over filling their own schedules by over filling their childrens' schedules.
2. The result is that every evolution must come off perfect, or else the schedule is screwed
3. So let's make sure there are no reasons for any of the kids to act up so we can just all get through this!

This is an extension of the same issue I spelled out above.

See... no reason at all to hate the player.... all the reason to hate the game.

The difference between today and yesterday has more to do with the fact that when I was a kid, if I needed to learn a basketball shot, I would shoot the same shot all day until I got it right.

Can't do that today when kids are taking two and three sports, playing an instrument, maintaining scholastics, attending cub scouts etc.

Don't get me wrong. These activities were designed to help keep kids out of trouble and to teach them life skills. But now it's a parental competition to see which child can outdo the other. To the point that the kids only have enough bandwidth to get a breadth of different things, but no depth in anything at all.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Quazga]

I can honestly say that My children are exceptionally well mannered and behaved. Both of My younger kids(8 & 11) shake peoples hands and say "Pleased to meet You" when being introduced to someone. They say "Yes Ma'am" and "Yes Sir" at all of the right times and My son holds doors for woman. I'm even proud to say that He was 'voted' the nicest, most generous kid in school.

My main fault would be that I 'protect' them too much. It's what I do- it's what moms do. I find it very hard to allow them to be disappointed or upset. I'm constantly trying to fix things/situations that they probably could fix themselves if given time. Coping is a skill that is learned and My kids aren't getting that. I'm afraid they will be the people that 'melt down' or give up at any moment for lack of coping skills. It's so hard to see Your little ones struggle, I find it impossible to let them flounder. I know this probably has a lot to do with My own insecurities as a parent. If I sit back I may find that I've equipped them well enough to handle things on their own but I'm too anxious to wait & see.

It's funny. I always make the remark that if My kids are gonna seek therapy as adults I want to be the one responsible for them doing so. I wonder how far off the mark I am?!

Peace. K*

Another thought. Should kids be paid to do chores? I'm caught. Shouldn't they do chores just bcuz they need done? Like everyone pitches in for the good of Us all or 'You live here so pitch in already'? My Xs cousin paid Her kids $35.00 a wk to do nothing- they were 6 & 8. Crazy. What do You think?

Peace. K*

Originally posted by Demetre
Another thought. Should kids be paid to do chores? I'm caught. Shouldn't they do chores just bcuz they need done? Like everyone pitches in for the good of Us all or 'You live here so pitch in already'? My Xs cousin paid Her kids $35.00 a wk to do nothing- they were 6 & 8. Crazy. What do You think?

Peace. K*

When I was a kid, my parents told me the reasons I did chores were

A. Because "I" said so!
B. You live here so you got to earn your way!

However, these were the reasons why *they* wanted me to do chores, they weren't the reason why *I* should do chores. Sure if I didn't I was punished, but even avoiding punishment is not a valid reason to do chores.

So when I moved out and got my own place, Guess what happened?

A. Mom and Dad were not around to say so, so chores didn't get done.
B. I was paying the bills for the place I lived, so there was no one to make me feel guilty about not pitching in.

My place was a mess. I could barely get anything done, had to wash either clothes or dishes whenever I needed one, and subsequently always felt like leaving wherever I was living, and could never relax and unwind.

Then I realized, "THAT'S THE REASON WE DO CHORES!". I was 26 before I learned this lesson because my parents were too busy telling me why they wanted me to do chores and not why I should do chores, or even why THEY did chores.

Once I realized the actual reason to do chores, I have been running smoothly ever since. I have to say, that my parents did teach me HOW to do chores, which was great once I actually learned WHY to do chores.

It didn't matter how responsible I was, I just wouldn't do the chores before I had my realization because the reasons I was programmed to respond to didn't exist after I left home.

As parents we need to be very tuned in to what we are actually teaching our children, not the intent behind what we are teaching. Kids don't hear intent. When kids ask for a reason why they should do something, parents should always interpret that as "Why do adults do this?" And respond accordingly.

Originally posted by stinkhorn
The Liberal wussy mentality has pervaded even our schools now at the lowest level.

not sure what liberalism has to do with low educational standards. Liberal just means that you think government should consider individual liberty to be the most important political goal. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's stop bringing politics into this, just for once. I know it's a lot to ask.

Originally posted by Demetre
Another thought. Should kids be paid to do chores? I'm caught. Shouldn't they do chores just bcuz they need done? Like everyone pitches in for the good of Us all or 'You live here so pitch in already'? My Xs cousin paid Her kids $35.00 a wk to do nothing- they were 6 & 8. Crazy. What do You think?

Peace. K*

Well kids need some kind of pocket money when they reach a certain age yet they are too young to mow lawns or wahtever. Instead of just giving it to them (like your friend does) the parents give them some chores and call it an allowance, or give them a few bucks to wash the car or whatever.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Sonya610]

I am a teacher and a parent. I know I just teach Art, as I am told often by annoying parents/other staff members, but let me tell you, the educational system is terrible. Why is it terrible? I could go on for hours upon hours, but the basic point is this: Parents don't want to teach their children anything, potty training, respect, manners, morals, how to be self sufficient, any skills.....so they leave it to the government controlled schools to do it.

Has anyone been is school lately? I get in trouble for failing kids when they do nothing, from the principal, I get harrassed, by the parents, if I sit a kid in a corner by himself for being trouble, kids like to boo you in class if you ask them to do something. The poor kids who could do well really get the shaft.

Anyway you go about it it's terrible. Try teaching a group of kids something when you have 30 in a small classroom, several who are listed on their IEP's as being anti-social and emotionally disabled, and a couple who needed aides for their physical limitations, even though I don't get help. Don't even get me started on the students coming to school not potty trained!!

So no one does anything and they pass the buck to someone else. If you do try to educate them, the parents get mad at you for hurting their feelings because they didn't get an A on a project when they tried "really hard."

Anyway, if you can homeschool your kids, they will be better off. Then volunteer at some kids clubs etc, if you want to make a positve difference.

The bottom line is: many parents don't want to teach their children and the teachers who do, like myself, have to divide time in class between convos, pep rallies, testing, and so on and get harrassed by parents and administrators for trying to grade them and not just give them a ribbon for showing up!!

Coming from someone with incredibly inept parents I can tell you that kids do need some kind of influence from their parents. Talk to your kids, at least pretend to give a damn about them and youre already on the right track.

Originally posted by stinkhorn
reply to post by LateApexer313

 

learn to dodge, duck, dive and dodge, thats the game.

patches would agree wholeheartedly god rest his soul

lol i love that movie.

As a member of the 90's generation, I feel somewhat obliged to throw in my views, although I can tell you right now I more than likely do not represent the mindset of my peers.

To be frank I have never had a hard life in terms of living conditions, as my father was lucky enough to grab a seat at a fairly large company as their corporate attorney. As such I have been fairly privileged with a good amount of things, namely electronics. As many others have stated before, it's the common trend of replacing time lost with one's offspring with material goods. Even so I hardly feel entitled to them, and essentially would do just about anything for him and the rest of my family without a second thought.

I would like to think I am fairly kind to everyone in general, to be honest. I even feign tolerance for those who get on my nerves unless they're really annoying, upon which I'll promptly disregard any knowledge of their existence in normal settings. In public I am courteous and say the right things when they're expected... or were expected when public decency wasn't as rare as water in the Sahara. At this point I don't do it out of obligation, but mainly because it just helps life go on a little smoother.

As far as school goes, that's another issue. I was always bored with what it had to offer in terms of core classes. Either there was no challenge at all or the material vaguely demanded brief study for regurgitation. In particular, English classes always disappointed me for I was never truly given the chance to write enough. I would go into a rant about my love for the English language but I fear that would be getting off topic.

Even so, I have always been interested in learning. In fact instead of studying for the materials we covered in school (seeing as I rarely needed to in the first place), I always have been reading about things that I genuinely found interesting. Whether or not that is wise is really not for me to say.

At the end of my sophomore year I elected to go to a vocational school part time to study computer networking. So instead of wasting time in Wood's, Pottery, and other joke classes I found myself studying material those at least two years ahead of me were touching upon.

Needless to say I am now certified as a CompTIA A+ Certified Professional (an entry level certification for the field of IT, specifically hardware and [minor] software support) and am a Cisco Certified Network Associate. I have held a job in IT for a year now and make a small amount over minimum wage in my state. The money was never the deciding factor though, because I love the work I do. Even writing up dreaded technical documentation is something I can kind of look forward to, in a sick way.

At the age of 18 I think that's being somewhat ahead of the game, but not by much.

In retrospect I did make some big mistakes [read: didn't do any homework] in my first two years... and upon graduation I barely managed to pull off a 3.0 GPA. Such is the way things are and I can assure you I'll never walk down that path again.

I'll tell you now that I'm what most people would consider to be a geek/nerd/loser/what have you. That alone might be why I'm not, in layman's terms, a complete dick. My parents never really stressed any kind of morality, so I'm not sure why I turned out like this. Of course I suppose I could never be a 'moral' person, seeing as I have not believed in a deity of any type since the days of Santa Claus. That and I find censorship of any kind completely uncalled for.

In closing I have to say I have always observed my peers as an outsider, and quite frankly I feel kind of sad for them. They go about their lives with no regard for anyone else and put forth no initiative to better themselves. When it comes down to it I suppose I'm a cynic, as I really doubt those of my generation and beyond will ever change.

Maybe I'm wrong. In fact, I hope so...