Parents Not Parenting, Are You Guilty??

reply to post by LateApexer313


I am not guilty, at least not yet. I disagree with you about being outraged at helping with homework. I look forward to when I will be able to help them. I can understand if we happened to live in a society that actually provides a decent public education, but we don't live in such a world any longer.

Like you said, teachers don't even bother teaching children how to spell, yet you suggest that parents don't get involved with the homework either? If you want your child to learn something, you need to be involved.

Entitlement kids are not the ones who have their parents helping out with homework. Entitlement kids are the ones who are not able to spell banana. Their parents don't care either.

Perhaps what I view as helping with homework is not the same as what you view it as.

What about money responsibility. Kids think they should have tons of money and do absolutely nothing to get it, because they see models getting tons and doing bugger all for it. When i was a kid i had a paper round, it taught me about money and how work meant i had some but had to be careful how i spent it. I wanted a games console, so instead of my parents buying it out right, they told me to save money from my paper round and pay half.

Why don't more parents do this? I wanted that thing so much i did my paper round, washed neighbors cars and did garden work for an old woman up the road from us. Kids need to learn this stuff.

I've got one- respect for property, personal and private. Last summer I caught the neighbor kids dancing and jumping off of the hood and roof of their parents cars! They've broken My window and My daughters toys-before they even moved in. They've broken My doorbell, My cast iron fence, have climbed on My wooden fence so it's coming out of the ground, broke the heat exhaust vent to the exterior of My house and have stolen garden decor and My super, duper, almost ready to be picked watermelon and ate it. The watermelon deal is what sent Me over the edge, the fruits of My labor. These kids were only 8 and 11. One day I couldn't help Myself. After repeatedly asking them to not use My fence in their game of ball and tired of answering the door to 'Our ball's in Your yard.' I popped it! I popped that freaking ball and threw it back to them! Was it My best moment? No, but God it felt good. I got sooo much satisfaction out of it I felt a tad guilty, just a tad. Then I remembered My accosted and kidnapped garden gnome, I did it in the memory of Him!

Peace. K*

reply to post by Demetre


Sorry I would have beat the hell out of them, or got so crazy they wouldn't think twice about entering my yard..

Remember its not the normal people u remember growing up.. Its those crazy old people that yelled at you.

Schools have always been dumbing things down for kids.

For example, one of the first things you learn in math is addition and subtraction. One of the first "rules" of subtraction is that you can't do a problem like 5-7 because you can't subtract a larger number from one that is smaller. And they tell you this for years. By the time you get to 6th or 7th grade, you realize that even though they taught you that back then, it's not true. I went to a private school till 8th grade and then I went to a public high school. In the 11th grade there were kids that still didn't understand that you can subtract two numbers like that. Students don't know negative numbers even exist for a long time after they learn the rules of simple math.

Another problem I see with the math teachings is that students first learn fractions with division. But then decimals and percents are a whole different lesson, sometimes not until grades later. Again in high school the majority of the kids did not know that fractions, decimals and percents are essentially the same amounts expressed in different ways. Students are taught to do things simple from the beginning, and then they are surprised when they realize things aren't that simple as what they learned.

Some things I can understand why they wouldn't teach them with the lessons, but they shouldn't tell you that it's the only way to do things. Like I can understand that when you start learning algebra, they don't break it all out at once. You learn that you got left to right doing multiplication and division first and add and subtract last. I understand why the leave out parts of algebra like parenthesis. But multiplication, division, addition, and subtraction are the root of all kinds of math.

It occurs in other subjects too. From the beginning, I learned in every science class that there are three forms of matter-solid, liquid, and gas. And then found out about plasma later, even though I was specifically taught there were only three forms of matter before and plasma was never mentioned once. That wasn't until 12th grade. I probably know 95% of all the facts on solid, liquid, and gas; but the only thing I know about plasma is that the sun is made of plasma. And lightening, but I might be wrong about that.

Also, earth-space science is one of the most vague classes. All that was taught about gravity is that its the force that keeps you on the ground. Earth-space science teaches you the absolute minimum it possibly can.

My English and Literature classes were horrendous. Archaic language ( I think thats what its called) is the most ridiculous subject. There was no lesson, you just do Shakespeare plays in class to learn Archaic Language. Then take a quiz on the particular play. But with the lessons of Archaic Language being just acting out Shakespeare(or watching them on TV in classes in some cases) teaches you almost nothing about the language they used. Without some kinda lessons, the plays make almost no sense to most students, so basically you get screwed twice. You don't understand the language, which in turn means kids comprehend nothing about the play.

Spanish class- all you do is memorize words. Alot of language teachers don't realize that memorizing isn't learning. You memorize the words first and learn sentences later, but you don't know the endings to the words, like how english has -ing, -ed, etc.

I don't want to get started on private school sex ed. They would separate the boys and girls, and teach them about their own gender. This does not satisfy the curiosity about the opposite sex.

I believe that these things are playing a huge part in with people of my age group who are having a hard time picking a career to pursue. People in their early 20s didn't learn enough in school to know what actually interests them.

And it seems it's only getting worse. As technology gets better, it seems like there is a decline in intelligence. I'm sure there's and equation to express that.

Originally posted by LateApexer313
Just a thought here...

I find it hilarious that out of the posts so far, I only have one parent coming forward to post their experiences, yay or nay....

I challenge all the parents out there who know they are guilty and who want to change, to explain why they engage in this style of parenting. I find this fascinating and thank you

okay, here's my experience....
I've raised three boys, I was told that one was moderately retarded when he was very young. well, I spent hours upon hours sitting with those three boys after school helping them with their homework. ya, I could have gave in, let the one be labeled retarded, fed the other a various assortment of pills for ADD, ect....but I didn't. well, that moderately retarded boy has been out of school now for maybe three years, he's making over $30,000 an hour in a management position. all my kids turned out fine. so, well, guess what I am trying to get across is that maybe people should get out of other's people's lives? ya, so the lady is spending her time helping her kids with their homework...it's not like all these teachers are out there teaching the kid much. she knows her kids, far better than you do.

Sorry to reply twice, but I typed that hours ago and never pushed post. But the field day thing made me remember this. When I was in middle school, and all the area schools would compete, they would pick the best student for each activity. For example-the heaviest kids for tug of war, the fastest kids for the distance run, and kids on baseball teams for the softball throw.

However, my school would put names in hats, and draw names for each event. It would never fail that the scrawniest nerds were doing tug of war, the largest kids were trying to do running jump. If there was a kid with one leg, he would probably get chosen for distance run. Never had a kid with one leg, but if we did that would happen. My school never won any ribbons except participation ribbons. And we were never upset or mad because we knew we were horrible at what we got picked for.

So what's the lesson in that? Its better for everyone to have an equal chance of doing each activity and losing practically everything, instead of realizing people have different strengths and weakness. Their strengths should be celebrated and encouraged instead of acting like everyone is equally good at everything. Even kids realized that that's no way to do something.

Collectively losing and suppressing talents that kids have is a horrible idea. That's why rules like that start. Now no one wins on field day and kids aren't encouraged to try their best.

That was a rant, but field day has been making me mad for 10 years.

this is starting to look a lot like Fahrenheit 451. people are starting to say lets not teach this so the stupid kids here wont feel bad. or lets not play football because the weak kids wont like it. i don't say that my upbringing was perfect but i knew if i didn't bring home a 80+ i get my ass beat. todays kids have their parents wrapped around their fingers.

i have a friend who's son treats her like a house worker. AND SHE DOESN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. if he makes a mess she comes and cleans it while he sits on the couch and doesn't do anything. he is 13 and can barely read and the last thing he read was probably a gamepro magazine.

as soon as schools stop teaching proper english, the future generation will kill themselves or turn the world into a real version of Bradbury's novel.

You know, after reading where this discussion is going, I think I need to make an addendum to my last post. I also spanked both my kids when they were young, whenever they needed it. Thankfully, it wasn't often, because it really did hurt me more than it hurt them (used to get so confused when my dad told me that...). That only lasted until the age of about 6 or 7, after which there was no need to spank them.

In contrast, I have known kids who were so out of control by that age they were little more than animals. The parents would finally try some discipline: too late. It had little effect. These children will grow up to one of two destinys: either they will become so shiftless and lazy that they will turn criminal rather than working for a living, or they will be so lazy and shiftless that they will live in poverty and on government assistance for their entire lives. That is not love, and it is not parenting.

I started spanking mine at the age of about 2. All it took was a quick swat on the behind, more noise than substance. They cried, and it tore my heart out. But if I had not done that, they would not be the people they are today. That's love and compassion... and parenting.

TheRedneck

Fabulous thread!
Iam a mom of 8.
All live with me. Ages 21 on down to four.
Right from the start, I never spoiled my kids.
I stayed at home with them as much as I could. I breastfed them all, and yes I do practice co-sleeping, when they were little.
I could count on one hand the amount of times my kids have been to McDonalds.
I have never, ever, taken them to Walmart and allowed them to browse the toy section , while throwing a tantrum demanding something new.
I truly despise that.
Iam , for all rights and purposes, a strict parent.
I demand respect to be shown to me, and to each other, and it is given in return. I demand that all of them help with chores around the house, with the exception of my youngest, who has a slight physical disability, but she does what she can. She picks up her own toys, and helps with laundry. She's 4 years old.
TV time, and video game time, is a trade off. You must have chores or homework done first. No two ways about it. And if it's a sunny day, you play outside.
I home school my children, and have done so for many years.
I found many faults with the system here and I had some personal experiences with teachers that were unpleasant.
My oldest son, I home schooled for three years and he made the choice to go to high school in a public setting. I allowed him his choice. He graduated in 3 years instead of the required 4, with honors in science.
I do go outside with my children while they are playing, especially with others in the area, as there are a few who TOTALLY lack in parental supervision and who's behavior is just ghastly to say the least.
I always talk openly with my kids about what's a good idea for them to do, or a bad idea, and if they chose to do it anyway, they own up to the consequences.
I have clearly laid out rules for my house, and if you want privileges , you follow the rules.
Some parents are gonna attack me for my ways I'm sure.
But I grew up raised by babysitters, both parents working, latchkey kid at 12 years old. My house was messy, we ate only convenience foods, and my parents tried to replace time and love with material gifts.
I REFUSE TO BE LIKE THAT.
I don't claim to be perfect, but Iam a single parent, and I raise my kids as best as I can.
Judging by the compliments I get on their behavior and strong work ethics..I'm doing something right.

Oh what a great subject to discuss!!!

I have three kids 11, 9, and 4. Where shall I start???? HOMEWORK ug. I am still trying to figure out the best way to handle this. Luckly my oldest is going into middle school this year where they will post all of his grades as he gets them. I will be able to keep better track of what he is learning that way. Because of this 'no child left behind' crap, parents have to teach their kids at home. I tried the whole 'im not helping you with your homework you have to do it yourself' bit. Then i realized that he was not learning at school. He was being told what he needed to learn. BIG difference. 6th grade....no spelling, no handwriting, no teaching. They were too busy correcting problem students the whole time. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is to find out that at least half the time the teachers have to teach is spent on attempting to controll kids who refuse to behave? Then the teachers are so stressed out they have no patience to help the kids who need it, like my son. I feel sorry for them, because their hands are tied too. There was nothing they could do about the kids.

my sister is a 4th grade teacher, and she is seeing a lot of the same thing. Kids who are just out of controll. The parents do not care, the school cant kick them out unless they risk harming other kids physically. There is nothing they can do. Which really sucks for everyone else.

I insist that my kids do their work right. I told my oldest that if his work was not good enough, then he would do it over again and over again until I could easily read it, and it was correct. Yes there were nights he redid his homework 5 times before I would allow it. He bitched and moaned the whole time right up untill he brought home an A. Then he was so proud he shined brighter than the sun.

I was floored when we found out he had to memorize all the states and capitals in two weeks time. They didnt have time to do the final test over all the states. Too much time was needed teaching the kids how to take the map test. His second semester math grade was based on two tests. One taken in February and one taken in late April, early May. The rest of the time was spent on Map testing prep. Very little time was spent on the Govt. He doesnt know what the Vice Pres.'s job is, and was surpirsed to hear on the news that the United States had a Secretary.

My 9 year old is super smart. I was surprised to see that he got a B in reading because the child can go through a chapter book in lightning speed and remember every detail. Turned out the test was verbal. He has to read things out loud, and is graded on speed. He is in speech class!!!!!!!! He has to talk slow so the teacher can understand him!!!! Poor little fella gets so bored, and frustrated. But hay, if they had to write out their answers, the teacher wouldnt be able to read them because the spelling is so bad.

sheesh I better stop for now.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
You know, after reading where this discussion is going, I think I need to make an addendum to my last post. I also spanked both my kids when they were young, whenever they needed it. Thankfully, it wasn't often, because it really did hurt me more than it hurt them (used to get so confused when my dad told me that...). That only lasted until the age of about 6 or 7, after which there was no need to spank them.

In contrast, I have known kids who were so out of control by that age they were little more than animals. The parents would finally try some discipline: too late. It had little effect. These children will grow up to one of two destinys: either they will become so shiftless and lazy that they will turn criminal rather than working for a living, or they will be so lazy and shiftless that they will live in poverty and on government assistance for their entire lives. That is not love, and it is not parenting.

I started spanking mine at the age of about 2. All it took was a quick swat on the behind, more noise than substance. They cried, and it tore my heart out. But if I had not done that, they would not be the people they are today. That's love and compassion... and parenting.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by Tiste Andii
While it's not really a 'law' here in the US (at least in Bama), it is a legal grey area. But here's how I dealt with it.

We had one run-in with DHR. A small spat between my wife and myself, she called the cops (who laughed because no one got hit even), and that alerted the DHR. The supervisor came to see us. As soon as she introduced herself, I intorduced myself and added the following words: "I have heard the horror stories about you folks. these are our children. you so much as think about taking them, I will kill you and bury your dead a$$ on this mountain."

She gave me a funny look, I guess because I wasn't smiling. She then nodded, and left. We never heard another word, except a letter stating they had closed 'our case'.

It wasn't a threat. It was a warning, and she knew it. Just be sure you're prepared to face the consequences if they come. I was.

TheRedneck

The level of intellectualisation as a means to put yourself at peace with your actions in life is both sad and alarming. Rationalising will not take away the following facts:

1. While you may consider it to have been a "small spat", it clearly was not to your wife who felt the need to call the cops. The DHR was also called. Yes, a "small spat"

2. Real men do not threaten people with violence, or use it. The claim that mild punishment, such as smacks or slaps, have no detrimental effects is still widespread because people got this message from their own parents, who got it from theirs. You are a prime example - daddy did it to me, so its ok for me to. Isnt it funny how you mentioned having suffered depression for 5 years.

The answer is right in front of you and yet you are too fearful to own it.

It is this conviction which helps the child to minimize or numb their suffering so that each generation is subjected to the seemingly harmless effects of physical correction. "What hasn't harmed me cannot harm my child', people tell themselves. Such a conclusion is wrong because people have never challenged their assumptions. Parents may claim the right to hit children when they are small as though they are property. Yet as soon as those children become violent delinquents or drug abusers or depressed, the same parents are eager to turn the problem over to society. The anonymous taxpayer has to fund the hospitals and prisons these once so eagerly disciplined teenagers or adults will need.

The answer is right in front of you. Instead you inflicted the same pain upon your children which your father inflicted upon you.

Nice. You must be so proud.

reply to post by LateApexer313


You realize you are heading into the "Hey you kids get off my lawn!!!" stage in your life!!



Just sayin you may want to take that into consideration with some of the points you are making...

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I also spanked both my kids when they were young, whenever they needed it.

In contrast, I have known kids who were so out of control by that age they were little more than animals.

Yeah people used to instill a certain level of "fear" in their kids at a young age. Doesn't require abuse, but many of us had a fear of "crossing the line", we didn't exactly what would happen but we knew we didn't want to find out.

Many parents today fail to instill that fear in their younger children. When the kid gets older and is out of control the parents try to "crack down" but they can't because the child just doesn't respect them as alpha.

Though in all honestly I have to say most of the children I see in the south seem fairly polite. Spraying cars that drive by with water hoses and such would NOT fly in most of the areas out here. I generally avoid kids so I am not an expert but they are for the most part okay in public. Of course we have some very very rough inner city youths, I am referring to the children in the burbs.

[edit on 16-7-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by LateApexer313
Employers are complaining that the new hires fresh out of college or highschool show up in dirty, torn or rumpled clothing for job interviews, with no resume prepared, no coherent thought process even given to the actual interview. They slouch, only seem to care about the hours and the pay, and ask how many sick days the job comes with.
...

"Employers" only have themselves to blame. They have shown for about 30 years now that you are only a number to them, a profit margin. Can you actually blame young people for believing them?

Something else that young people are doing, which I believe is quite the positive for them, is that they realize that jobs are just a necessity to have while you actually live your life. No more putting in 80 hours a week. Why do that, when you can (and will) be fired/layed off when some executive needs his stock price to go up by 25 cents a share for the next quarter?

Back to the subject at hand: I believe the "no winners and losers" and the "however you FEEL like you should spell it is correct" has to do with the feminization of the educational system. Men, in general, are results oriented. Women are feelings oriented. The fact that women now control the education system reflects this.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
You know, after reading where this discussion is going, I think I need to make an addendum to my last post. I also spanked both my kids when they were young, whenever they needed it. Thankfully, it wasn't often, because it really did hurt me more than it hurt them (used to get so confused when my dad told me that...). That only lasted until the age of about 6 or 7, after which there was no need to spank them.

My parents did the same with us, it went like this. We get a first warning, then if we ignored it we got a solid talking to, then if we ignore that we got another warning with the words "Or you'll get a smack". If we still didn't listen we got a smack and we learnt the system and by the age of 8 the warning was enough, i don't think my parents smacked either of us past the age of 7 or 8 becuase they stuck to their system. We only got hit maybe 3 times in our lives because we knew the rules.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
In contrast, I have known kids who were so out of control by that age they were little more than animals. The parents would finally try some discipline: too late. It had little effect. These children will grow up to one of two destinys: either they will become so shiftless and lazy that they will turn criminal rather than working for a living, or they will be so lazy and shiftless that they will live in poverty and on government assistance for their entire lives. That is not love, and it is not parenting.

Agreed, it's sadly really bad like that in the US, life long dole scroungers, just annoys the hell out of me.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
I started spanking mine at the age of about 2. All it took was a quick swat on the behind, more noise than substance. They cried, and it tore my heart out. But if I had not done that, they would not be the people they are today. That's love and compassion... and parenting.

TheRedneck

It is parenting i agree and yet so many far left liberals will call you a child abuser, isn't that the most rediculous thing ever? They would tell you that you should lhave listened to your kids as they kicked down the door, hurled a glass at you and generally acted like little hooligans.

On the opposite side there are parents who spank far to much, the problem with that is that the kid then seems to get used to it and it doesn't work at all. I think parenting seems to be about a fine balance, i'm not a parent so maybe i'm not qualified to say anything, but i know people with kids and i was a kid once so i think i'm qualified enough

reply to post by sir_chancealot

Back to the subject at hand: I believe the "no winners and losers" and the "however you FEEL like you should spell it is correct" has to do with the feminization of the educational system. Men, in general, are results oriented. Women are feelings oriented. The fact that women now control the education system reflects this.

THAT is quite a bold statement. Reading a couple of posts in this thread certainly contradicts that.
I won't speak of the "no winners, no losers" scenario, but what person doesn't want their child to spell properly?
Personally I blame the fact that most kids are using TEXT speak in everyday language now. But it's not just a slip in reading and writing. It's true, teachers just aren't teaching the way they used to, and I'm not blaming them. It's also the fault of the parents, and in the case of where I live, over sized classes and reduced prep time.
There is no way that I want my children to go through life not knowing how to properly spell. I want them to excel past flipping burgers.

People need to be aware that those who teach the teachers are instilling the idea that 'parents are stupid'......and that their input is to be ignored.

I discovered this when I returned to college after years in the commercial art field, to take the necessary courses so I could get my teaching certification.

As I sat through my grad level education courses I became increasingly horrified to hear what some professors were telling the fledgling teachers.

On more than one occasion, the professor ( a Phd ) actually said things like, "when you have to meet with their stupid parents"......or " their parents are too stupid to help with homework"!

( I had already put my two children through the local public school system, and I really got some insight into why I'd had certain problems with young teachers and the way they related to me during some of those parent teacher conferences!! )

If I had know some of these things when they started school, I would have seriously considered home schooling.......as things were, I was sorely disappointed in their science curriculum, and constantly supplemented it with my own 'home schooling' efforts. ( we had a microscope, a chemistry set, and a library of reference books and educational software for our home computer way before the schools put computers in classrooms. )

I had other disappointing revelations during those education courses.....

During a discussion of our student teaching experiences, one of our professors even admitted that 'the system' did not really intend that all students succeed/graduate......"after all, SW Mills ( local industrial bakery) needs someone to lift those 50lb sacks of flour!"

His comment was in reference to an very promising HS art student, one who could have walked into Disney and gotten a position instantly, but was not doing well in other courses.

In the supposed intent to 'encourage' him to do better in his other courses, he was removed from the art classes.....This kid only stayed in school because of his interest in the art classes, and they could have been 'his ticket ' out of the projects.....but no, that was not to be considered and when he dropped out of school, it was shrugged off in the above way. ( I wondered..... would there have been a bit more concern if he'd been a football player!!)

The education system is not what it used to be......my kids were not even offered the level of teaching or curriculum that I had......The discipline needs to be re-introduced to the classroom, from the very beginning ....K through 12 and even to the college level education of new teachers!

Spanking and the premise of this thread really do not mix.

Despite numerous recommendations from experts against spanking young children, a majority of U.S. adults questioned in a recent survey said that they approve of the practice.

archives.cnn.com...

This survey really isn't recent anymore, but it reflects the parenting style the children we see lately grew up with. The majority of those bad parents spanked.

Three separate studies of children with serious conduct problems, conducted by Grozier and Katz (1979), Patterson (1982), and Webster-Stratton et al. (1988, 1990), found that when spanking was discontinued and other forms of discipline and behavior management were used instead, the children's behavior improved. A study conducted by researchers at McMasters University found that anxiety disorders, drug and alcohol problems, antisocial behavior, and depression were more prevalent among adults who had been spanked as children.

www.mothering.com...


Study: Spanking kids leads to long-term bad behavior

I was spanked myself as a child and so I know first hand that it doesn't work. If it worked, I wouldn't have found myself being spanked nearly every day.

I wasn't a horrible child, I was just a child. Children throw tantrums. It's how they function. As an adult, if I were having a bad day and needed a good cry, I'd expect those around me to allow it. Maybe I just need a good spanking to help me get over my troubles?

In other cases of misbehavior, again you need to remember that a child is a child. When they do wrong they need to be taught a lesson, and that lesson shouldn't be that mommy and daddy will hit you when you mess up.

Some of these posts make me sick. If you have to do something "behind closed doors", it's wrong. Yes, the law may allow you to "beat" your children without leaving marks, but it's still wrong. There is no need to continue the tradition of abuse from previous generations..

reply to post by the titor experience
You appear to have this misconception. Allow me to point out the facts, since I was actually there.

1. While you may consider it to have been a "small spat", it clearly was not to your wife who felt the need to call the cops. The DHR was also called. Yes, a "small spat"

I did sort of skim this subject as much as possible, because I am not particularly proud of having a argument. Yes, the cops were called, who promptly realized no actual violence had ever taken place. It was an argument, not a fight, and no blows were thrown on either side. The children were not even involved.

I later found out DHR is called whenever there is an allegation of domestic violence, as a 'precautionary measure'. Notice I said allegation.

You have apparently taken two different episodes from my life and decided they happened simultaneously.

2. Real men do not threaten people with violence, or use it. The claim that mild punishment, such as smacks or slaps, have no detrimental effects is still widespread because people got this message from their own parents, who got it from theirs. You are a prime example - daddy did it to me, so its ok for me to. Isnt it funny how you mentioned having suffered depression for 5 years.

So now you are tying a depression caused by exhaustion and overwork, triggered by a business collapse, to getting a much-deserved spanking as a child? Wow, that is really a leap of logic.

What we have here is a prime example of the problem. Leaps of logic that do nothing more than attempt to tie together unrelated experiences in order to promote an agenda. Your agenda is clear: you want all physical contact to cease, because you have apparently been beaten (rather than disciplined) at some point in the past. You cannot fathom how a person can make physical contact with another one unless there is aggression involved. Therefore,in an attempt to stop all of the violent activities that were inflicted on you, you must take control of everyone's ability to raise their children.

Also, since men are typically more aggressive than women (yeah, right ), all of the blame must be toward the violent males of society, and the women/children must all be victims. Anything else must, by definition, be a mistake and an error on the judgment of those who actually investigated the 'crime'.

See how those leaps of logic can lead us astray?

TheRedneck

P.S.: I am proud, proud that I can examine a situation without assuming I have all the facts.