Overthrowing the United States Government

this is the last i'll say on this thread. a warning, so to speak. don't look for trouble at this point. you may get more than you bargain for. if you don't agree w/ the gov't, get them out of your lives, but anything more at this particular moment when the world is basically holding its breath, well, you don't want to be the one to spark anything. i am serious, educate yourself and others, be aware and alert, do what you feel you have to do in your heart, but DON'T forget to use your brains in the heat of your passions.

What I propose is Anarchy. Let the peoples morals guide them when the shadow of oppression barrels down on our lives.

Complete defiance of law. Now I don't mean "hey lets kill to put the government in its place" thats not very morally correct, but lets not follow the laws of men that mean to harm us.

Originally posted by justamomma
this is the last i'll say on this thread. a warning, so to speak. don't look for trouble at this point. you may get more than you bargain for. if you don't agree w/ the gov't, get them out of your lives, but anything more at this particular moment when the world is basically holding its breath, well, you don't want to be the one to spark anything. i am serious, educate yourself and others, be aware and alert, do what you feel you have to do in your heart, but DON'T forget to use your brains in the heat of your passions.

A very provocative post, justamomma. Do you feel the social order is such a tinderbox, or is it something else? Are you perhaps addressing the lone rangers who want to take matters into their own hands?

Pellevoisin;

I understand that you have never advocated violence, but some have. The main reson I brought up the taxation issue is that above all, this government lives off of money. Hit them where it hurts the worst, and that I hope even the most ignorant person in this country can understand the correlation of No taxation without representation. This was not directed at anyone here, but we have to face facts; there are some really stupid people in this country.

As a gun owner I do understand the second admendment and why it is neccesary. As far as detainment camps I have never seen any proof of them anywhere, and I live 5 miles from Fort Campbell.

In my opinion most people who believe that the government is going to detain American citizens for no cause seem to forget about all the veterans who have fought for our rights in the past will not fight for them again. It is against their nature to let that happen. That is the greatest thing about this county, almost everyone is active duty or a veteran.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
Because the opposition to the current government is not merely the opinion of one angry man but rather represents the will of the People (at about 70 percent of public judgment at the moment in the USA), it does represent a call to arms;

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
I would love to know what poll data you have where 70% of Americans answered yes to the following question: "The country is in shambles and there is no way to repair it, should we have a violent revolution to overthrow the government?"

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
I have never posed such an argument or idea.

Please keep track of your propaganda. Your just spouting off stuff you know is not true. There is no poll where 70% of the public opposes the government and supports a call to arms. Do not spout this sewage if you can't back it up.

You are sorely ignorant and should probably not be able to vote if you do translate public opinion polls on the disapproval of selected officials as (1) opposition to the government - this may come as a shock - but if you actually read the constitution your trying to defecate on you'd know there is far more to the government than the Presidency and Congress; and (2) that disapproval of something is a call to arms. I disapprove of your stomping and defecating on the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, but I'm not going to shoot you over it.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin
I have also made clear the reasons why the removal of a criminal government by the action of the People is a Constitutional action originating in the Constitutional right of the People to keep and bear arms.

Yes, you've made it clear that you don't care about the Constitution or the Republic, as if you did you'd use the constitutionally provided avenues to address your grievances. Do tell, what have you done personally to get your grievances addressed in the avenues provided by the law? You do realize - yet again - that just because the government doesn't bend to your personal will that you do not get to call for the revolution. This is a government BY AND FOR THE PEOPLE, not a government FOR YOUR NARROW WORLDVIEW or a government FOR REVOLUTION RAMBO WANNABES.

On a side note, you really shouldn't use words you don't understand. Read a law book on slander, then get back to me.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Please keep track of your propaganda. Your just spouting off stuff you know is not true. There is no poll where 70% of the public opposes the government and supports a call to arms. Do not spout this sewage if you can't back it up.

Dude, she hasn't done that at all. Your just making up your own sewage because you can't deal with her cogent arguments.

You are sorely ignorant and should probably not be able to vote if you do translate public opinion polls on the disapproval of selected officials as (1) opposition to the government - this may come as a shock - but if you actually read the constitution your trying to defecate on ...

You're the one doing the defecating here, and its just plain wrong.

Yes, you've made it clear that you don't care about the Constitution or the Republic, as if you did you'd use the constitutionally provided avenues to address your grievances.

Is your PhD in BS? You are just picking a fight here, and it doesn't help this thread one lick.

When reading through this OP and the responses, there are people who are feeling all sorts of pain over what is going on in the world and right there in the US. Some just want to throw it all away, but what Pelle offered was a great idea in taking up a nationwide general strike. That's the ticket as far as I'm concerned because it is very much in the American tradition and the spirit of what the early guys who wrote the Constitution had in mind.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
When reading through this OP and the responses, there are people who are feeling all sorts of pain over what is going on in the world and right there in the US. Some just want to throw it all away, but what Pelle offered was a great idea in taking up a nationwide general strike. That's the ticket as far as I'm concerned because it is very much in the American tradition and the spirit of what the early guys who wrote the Constitution had in mind.

I'll ignore your insults and slander...

Feeling pain? Oh woe is us, we can no longer drive 10MPG gas guzzlers (like in the 1970s) and must now switch from store brands to generic brands for foods. Oh, the pain. Talk about melodramatic. Live in a 3rd world country for a week and then tell me how horrible people in the US have it.

What do you think a national strike is going to do? If you said "hurt yourself" that's right. You cannot strike your way out of market forces. When the market performs to your liking no one says anything, but when it performs not to your liking, people whine and think they can somehow strike their way into it. Not only does it not work, you'll end up making things worse.

But your free to strike. I'll enjoy being able to go to the store and not have to wait in line. Unfortunately, so few people would do it I doubt I'd be able to notice. I can only hope. I think the reality is that there are too few people willing to stomp on the Constitution for your plan to work.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by splendourinthegrass


Merci. You're very kind, but you don't have to defend me.

It is very gratifying that the idea of a General Strike resonates with you. It is at a point to deserve its own development as a separate post. I'll be working on that soon.

splendourinthegrass, feel free to U2U me. I'm cutting and pasting the wrong stuff in the wrong places now. We can probably e-mail better and work on the General Strike post.

[edit on 6/7/08 by Pellevoisin]

The PEOPLE of the United States of America are COWARDS !

They are not interested in PROTECTING their RIGHTS and the Constitution.
They are only interested in what the GOVERNMENT is going to GIVE THEM !

The People will NOT rise against TYRANNTS and TYRANNY until every single FREEDOM is taken away. It is at that moment of awakening, that the PEOPLE will move to take their government back from the POWER MONGERS that have taken it over.

reply to post by Evisscerator


Its because we are manipulated by the tyrants not because we dont love freedom we dot know what true freedom is.

We dont know that in a true free society you arent forced to pay taxes that only benefit the government.

We dont know that the government shouldnt be as much of our life as it is today.

We dont know what true freedom is so we cant possibly have a value of true freedoms.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
Live in a 3rd world country for a week and then tell me how horrible people in the US have it.

I've lived and worked in two third world countries. The people there had a basic minimum standard of health care coverage. That's not true in the US. They both had governments working hard to get past the post-colonial nightmare period (that Zimbabwe is still going through). Unlike the US citizens, they were not seeing their sons and daughters dying in foreign wars that did not need to happen.

People say things like "try living the third world" but I think usually people who say that never have. There are a number of third world countries with far better conditions than those in which some Americans live.

Not everything is driven by market forces. Bad law is often as much a culprit. A general strike to end the role of speculators in the price of oil could be a very succesful single issue item targeting bad law and resulting in remarkable market reversals in price.

But if there is a general strike of any kind there will always be folks ready to back up the boysin power because they are drawn to power like a moth to flame. And in the end even they will get burned because of it.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
I've lived and worked in two third world countries. The people there had a basic minimum standard of health care coverage. That's not true in the US. They both had governments working hard to get past the post-colonial nightmare period (that Zimbabwe is still going through). Unlike the US citizens, they were not seeing their sons and daughters dying in foreign wars that did not need to happen.

Name one single third or second world country where the standard of living is above the United States, or one where the health care coverage meet standards of decency as outlined by the WHO or UN. Also, what in the world do you think medicaid or medicare is? Its national health care for those who cannot afford it. Note that there is a difference between choosing not to pay for health care and not being able to afford health care.

In graduate school we had a local government official from Zimbabwe in one of my public policy classes. I got to talk to her quite a bit over the course of a semester. She used to be amazed that we could even talk about things like economic development or urban renewal. In her country they were still dealing with roving gangs who would kill anyone in and around the major cities. They controlled the police, so you couldn't call for help if you saw them. I'll tell you what, watching your sons and daughters die in your own backyard must be much fun. I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear that they have it so good since they don't have anyone in Iraq.

I've read the constitution, and I'm quite sure no where does it say you have a right to free health care. If your going to strike because you don't have socialized health care, you might as well burn the constitution. I've lived in quite a few third world countries when I do charity work, and anyone who thinks they have it better is simply ignoring the facts. I want you to name one single third world country where life is better than it is in the US - or any industrialized first world nation.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
Not everything is driven by market forces. Bad law is often as much a culprit. A general strike to end the role of speculators in the price of oil could be a very succesful single issue item targeting bad law and resulting in remarkable market reversals in price.

Not everything, but most of the things people want to strike about are driven by market forces. Oil prices are due to market forces - demand has outstripped supply worldwide. You can strike all day, the market forces aren't going to change because your staying home from work or shouting and holding up signs.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
But if there is a general strike of any kind there will always be folks ready to back up the boysin power because they are drawn to power like a moth to flame. And in the end even they will get burned because of it.

If there were ever a general strike based on things like this, folks will be ready to support the Constitution and Declaration of Independence and ignore those who are striking. They would realize that those documents were formed to provide legitimate avenues to pursue grievances with government.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by o22a6ar


I sincerely hope you are not arested or gang stalked for what you have written in your OP. These are dangerous times, please be careful.

Look I'm not afraid anymore. We all know as Americans and people that something is being hidden/done. I'm ready to fight along with every other person in America. Something just needs to get through to them too. What are they going to arrest me for writing this? Can't against our constitution oh no wait they don't follow it anymore. If they do arrest me i would be in Juvi for what an Hour before i plead Un-Guilty since we have the freedom of speech. They gonna hunt me down secretly, not like I'm not gonna be able to spread words within seconds. Shut my Internet down? run into town like a mad man and find someone with Internet or whatever to spread word. I'm not afraid since God will decide when i die, NOT THEM.

For Us
For Our People
For Our Country
For God

I'm all for drum circles for change. But there are plenty of average Joe's out there who wouldn't get that.

What you'd probably need is a kind of "roll your own" thing where the Praying people would gather together to pray, the meditators would gather or meditate where they were, and then the drum circles would do their thing in strategic places. And all the Field/Intention Experiment people could join in sending their intentions.

I guess I'm talking about something that reaches out across many boundaries to gather together people of very different backgrounds but united on this particular cause.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by splendourinthegrass]

Do you really expect the majority of the population to go along with this?

I think you live in a different world my friend. Anarchy would eventually and inevitably turn into a survival of the fittest cluster****. I wonder if you will be pounding out your posts when kids are riding through your streets with automatic weapons killing anyone they want with out recourse.

Do things the right way and get elected to a office where you can make some real changes the right way.

Originally posted by ALightinDarkness
In graduate school we had a local government official from Zimbabwe in one of my public policy classes. I got to talk to her quite a bit over the course of a semester. She used to be amazed that we could even talk about things like economic development or urban renewal. In her country they were still dealing with roving gangs who would kill anyone in and around the major cities. They controlled the police, so you couldn't call for help if you saw them. I'll tell you what, watching your sons and daughters die in your own backyard must be much fun. I'm sure they'd be fascinated to hear that they have it so good since they don't have anyone in Iraq.

You realize don't you that Zimbabwe was the nation I mentioned as still being in their post-colonial nightmare. It is precisely NOT the sort of nation to which I was referring in comparison to the sorrow of U.S. citizens' seeing their children die in a needless ware on the foreign soil of Iraq.

I've lived in quite a few third world countries when I do charity work, and anyone who thinks they have it better is simply ignoring the facts. I want you to name one single third world country where life is better than it is in the US - or any industrialized first world nation.

Naming a single third world country where life is better than it is in the US is a very odd request to make. There are elements of the USA where people live in tremendous difficulty day to day. Comparing the statistical average U.S. citizen to say a hypothetical statistical average Argentine citizen or a Tanzanian or an Omani tells us surprisingly little and papers over issues such as what makes for quality of life, what life issues are important to a culture, and the sense of happiness that can be found in a nation.

There are nations like Guyana where it seems everyone is convinced that life is better in the USA so almost every citizen is in some process of trying to leave and enter the USA. Then there are nations like Botswana where the average citizen is very happy, is able to read, has a tremendous sense of belonging to their people and the land, and so on.

By comparison there are U.S. citizens who do not have such a life and for whom the life in Botswana may be a better one through that sort of comparison. The disaster of HIV/AIDS has taken a huge toll on Botswana, but in other respects it is resilient and remarkable and the health care deriving from British colonial rule is far better than health care in rural Appalachia, some entire cities like East St. Louis,IL, some of the urban ghettoes in cities like Detroit or pre-deluge New Orleans and even parts of Los Angeles County, California, for example. Who is happier with his life? The man from Botswana or the man from East St. Louis. I'd bet dollars to donuts that it would be the man from Botswana.

I have found Tanzanians in general far happier, more content with the lives they lead than many Americans I know. The same is true with people in Guinea and The Gambia even in spite of the great difficulties in the nations over the last dozen years.

There is a point where a people's unhappiness is a tipping point in national destiny as it was in the Colonies in 1776. The OP and following posts make it clear that there are very many unhappy people. U.S. polling data shows this. And whether or not it is based in a quantifiable reality, it is its own mighty power, and you can't make it go away by saying "You shouldn't feel that way dammit you're an American. Here I've got a chart to show you you should be happy." People feel what they feel, and it is feeling that moves men to make Declarations of Independence and seek to turn upside down a government gone horribly astray.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
You realize don't you that Zimbabwe was the nation I mentioned as still being in their post-colonial nightmare. It is precisely not the sort of nation to which I was referring in comparison to the sorrow of U.S. citizens' seeing their children die in a needless ware on the foreign soil of Iraq.

I suppose its most unfortunate for you then that during the semester we had at least 6 government officials from various African countries in the class. And 5 of them told tales that were even worse.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
Naming a single third world country where life is better than it is in the US is a very odd request to make.

What? Why, that should be a breeze, your the one who said:

There are a number of third world countries with far better conditions than those in which some Americans live.

So, name them. You seem to think there are a "number" of them and yet can't name one. I know why. Because there are none. You can try to use the relativist fallacy to get out of this, but the fact is that we can and do measure prosperity for countries as a whole. But the data show the standard and quality of life in the US is good, right along with many other countries. What that means is that if I were to randomly select someone from the US, and examined their life style and luxuries, and were to do the same for someone a third world country, we would find in almost every case the person in the US had it better.

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
There are nations like Guyana where it seems everyone is convinced that life is better in the USA so almost every citizen is in some process of trying to leave and enter the USA. Then there are nations like Botswana where the average citizen is very happy, is able to read, has a tremendous sense of belonging to their people and the land, and so on.

No, we are talking about measuring actual living conditions, not what people think about their living conditions. If I live in a place where sewage used to run through the streets, and now we have a sewer system, I would be very happy. Not because my life standard is now above that of someone in the US, but because I have no basis for comparison. And yet, I would be happier than many people in the US who have that and more.

And still the data show the truth - the human development index score for Botswana is at the "medium" level and it ranks 124 of 177. The human development index score for the United States is "high" and ranks 12 of 177. That is the data, and the data do not lie.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
I have found Tanzanians in general far happier, more content with the lives they lead than many Americans I know. The same is true with people in Guinea and The Gambia even in spite of the great difficulties in the nations over the last dozen years.

Tanzania: Ranked "low" overall, 159 of 177
Guinea: Ranked "low" overall, 160 of 177
Gambia: Ranked "medium" overall, 155 of 179 (1 slot away from being in the low category).

Originally posted by splendourinthegrass
There is a point where a people's unhappiness is a tipping point in national destiny as it was in the Colonies in 1776. The OP and following posts make it clear that there are very many unhappy people. U.S. polling data shows this.

You mix up what people feel with reality. It is unsurprising that when we are told, day after day, year after year, how horrible we are and how bad we have it, that people get depressed. It is unsurprising when people thrive and want doom and gloom because while they live lives of unexplainable luxury for most of the world but feel a need for something different to occur to break up the monotony of their lives.

It was not the unhappiness of the colonies that caused anything, it was facts: facts about how they were treated, facts about how government had interfered with their standard of life. I rest assure you, that even after the revolution, people were still unhappy. Life in colonial America was not decadent except for the few. Things have changed. We may not all be Bill Gates, but almost all of us have a standard of living that is reserved for only the elite of the elite in many countries.

Those who support this kind of thing do not seek to uphold the Declaration of Independence, they seek to trample on it - right along with the Constitution.

[edit on 6-7-2008 by ALightinDarkness]

reply to post by ALightinDarkness


Maybe it is your debating style, or maybe you really just don't get it.

How people feel about their lives is the reality.

Public Opinion turned and changed the war in Viet Nam for example. Public Opinion, feeling, sells cars, creates TV stars, and on and on.

Feeling, self-assessment is what counts. And as I noted I offered several countries where the feeling about their lives, the self-assessment was higher than what one is currently finding in the USA based on my experience.

This isn't about statistics based on the amount of money spent per person on food stuffs or how many kids use condoms.

How people feel is what it is all about, and that is why statistic juggling is so unconvincing and immaterial to what people believe about themselves and their condition.