Why are Atheists...Atheists?

Originally posted by thanatosdb
I am deeply sorry. This is one of only several posts I have made. I will not after due consideration be making anymore, or attending these forums. It is simply a waste of my time and not worth the intellectual effort. Trying to debate with the religious, it is like trying to explain sociology to an ant. It is all around them but their world view can't encompass it.

.It is all around them but their world view can't encompass it

Evidence of God? It is all around them but their Atheism and the Religion masquerading as Science, blinds them to it.

- Con

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

And Christians do not claim to provide the foundations of morality. We claim God does. Without God there is no morality - it's all just personal preference and opinion.

Let's see if I understand this correctly. Christians are only good, moral people because of God?

I actually find this insulting on both ends of the stick. First, that you imply that non-christians cannot be moral people, and secondly, that christians need to be babysat by God otherwise they'll misbehave.

Morals are, in the end, what society all agrees that they are. Our morals have changed over the years, yes, in fact, even good God fearing christian's morals. Also, different cultures have different morals from one another.

reply to post by Jadette

Let's see if I understand this correctly. Christians are only good, moral people because of God?

No you are misunderstanding, what I said is that God defines morality.

I actually find this insulting on both ends of the stick. First, that you imply that non-christians cannot be moral people, and secondly, that christians need to be babysat by God otherwise they'll misbehave.

First I never said that. I'm not surprised when an atheist exhibits moral behavior, after all he was created in Gods image. We all were.

Morals are, in the end, what society all agrees that they are. Our morals have changed over the years, yes, in fact, even good God fearing christian's morals. Also, different cultures have different morals from one another.

This where you are tragically mistaken. Unfortunately secular humanism has spread this dishonest propaganda into the world and people have bought into it. Without an absolute moral standard it all becomes relative and absolutely meaningless. It can be changed by the whims of popular opinion.

For instance, is killing wrong because it is actually wrong or is wrong because society says it is? If its just because society says it is wrong, then it is perfectly fine if the majority of Germans decide to eradicate the Jews from Germany by killing them. After all they are a sovereign nation who are we to judge their morality. Ahhh but for some reason we believe still killing is wrong - hmm wonder why? Because morality is absolute. It was defined by God. "Thou shall not Kill"

What is the source of human rights? Popular opinion as you assert. If that is the case then the majority has the moral authority to take the rights of the minority. When Thomas Jefferson was fighting King George for human rights in the Declaration of Independence, the source for the rights was something a king or government can not take a away.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

"By their creator". The USA has shown the greatest personal freedom the world has ever seen and it is founded on the idea that our freedom and rights are endowed by our creator.





[edit on 5/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by MatrixProphet

Thanks for sharing such a personal experience with us, but I do not find your experience enough to convince me that there was anything divine inspired. I say that because I was on the other side of that experience once. I walked into a convenience store one day and there were several customers inside. One person stood out because he was wearing a full length coat on a warm summer day. When I noticed he looked very nervous and was holding his arm to his side to try to conceal a large bulge under his coat, it was pretty clear he had a weapon and was just about to pull it out and rob the store. I looked directly at him, and he saw me looking at him. I simply shook my head no, and he stood there for a second, then immediately walked out of the store. There is no doubt in my mind that I probably kept him from robbing the store and with all the other people there, who knows what else.

My point is, I did something to change a persons state of mind similar to what you describe, and it didn't have anything to do with God. I simply had my eyes open, and this person that helped you through a difficult time was no different. BTW, I'm glad he was there to help.

I can understand how an experience like that would lead someone to believe that it was inspired, and I think that is fine. I don't think there is anything wrong with believing in God, because it is positive and makes people want to be good. The only problem I have with religion is when it stagnates knowledge, or someone becomes fanatical enough to kill in God's name.

Overall I think that when it comes to religion or the belief in God, the positives outweigh the negatives. So I say to each, his or her own.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
First I never said that. I'm not surprised when an atheist exhibits moral behavior, after all he was created in Gods image. We all were.

And your proof for this is where?

I detest.

We are created in the universe's image, the image of eternity, of energy, of both good and of evil and not only of one.

What you say disgusts me. I exhibit good behavior because I know the difference between good and bad. I use my logic to know that bad things bring more bad things. This is the logic of the universe, this is the way that the universe works. When I understand the universe I can harness for it my own good. Lies won't get us anywhere.

On the notion of your synopsis and belief I' have the following to say.

I'm not surprised when I see a Human exhibit immoral behavior, afterall we are created in the image of Satan.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet


I do psychologically know where many atheists are coming from. In many cases I cannot blame them. I will stand by that.

Yes I understand that about Atheists too that we can't blame them for anything they have done for what is done is never done in the name of Atheism. sheesh.

I do not believe in the Christian God of; the trinity, everyone is going to heaven, that he loves everyone, yada yada.

Oh no?? well how do you explain this matrix. See Below:

The reality of God is this: He does come off as a serial killer by observation. He does appear mean and cruel. The difference with me is the fact that I choose to view him in a different light. I have also seen other sides to him. But I will not create a Pollyanna view of him that just is not true!

You seem to contradict yourself here matrix, in fact that is exactly what you are doing if you answer to those saying the Christian God is a psycho offering concesssions for that aspect of him while in the same thread saying you don't believe in that God.

Each of us has a choice; believe in him, or not. Those of you who are devout Christians would do well to acknowledge the atheists right to not believe in a God.

I really couldn't care less but by law we really don't have any choice one way or the other and in-spite of what you might have been told by them, I have NEVER seen ANY Christian shoving anything down anyones throat.

They have as much of a right to not believe in a God as we have the right to believe!

LOL yeah, tell them that.

Pushing your self-righteousness down these posters throats will not produce positive results.

Positive results?? HA HA HA HA that's funny Matrix.

Learn by it!

by what?

- Con
PS; ya like that 1 key eh







[edit on 25-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

What you say disgusts me. I exhibit good behavior because I know the difference between good and bad. I use my logic to know that bad things bring more bad things. This is the logic of the universe, this is the way that the universe works. When I understand the universe I can harness for it my own good. Lies won't get us anywhere.

Thanks for illustrating my point for me! After all God is also responsible for the logic of the universe. You are only disgusted because you falsely believe you are the "captain of your own ship, the master of your own destiny". Sorry its a lie. Rationality is not the same as a moral capacity. Darwin admitted in Descent of Man, that,

"of all the differences between man and the lower animals, the moral sense or conscience is the most important."

Morality speaks to us in a different way than logic: it is not about what we do but what we ought to do. Contrary to Darwinist ideas morality presses on us to act against our self-interest. It urges us to help people we don't know and to be honest even when a lie might benefit us more. Often morality and logic seem at odds.



[edit on 5/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by realshanti


Thank you, I really thank everyone for being so civil. so many thought that there would be no hope for an intelligent conversation with our fellows on such a touchy subject!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Thanks for illustrating my point for me!

No point was illustrated for you in the manner that you are implying. I am created in the image of the universe. I am the universe. I am not created in the image of God alone.

After all God is also responsible for the logic of the universe.

The universe is responsible for the logic of God and Satan. By the logic of your statement again, "after all Satan is also responsible for the logic of the universe."

You are only disgusted because you falsely believe you are the "captain of your own ship, the master of your own destiny".

Don't tell me what I believe, because one it's not true and two you don't know me nor have you taken the time. You're simply here to impliment conversion tactics. I am disgusted because of what you just demonstrated. I am simultaneously the master of my own ship and the captain of my own destiny and neither.

Sorry i'ts a lie. Rationality is not the same as a moral capacity. Darwin admitted in Descent of Man, that,

Well now you're apologizing to no one as you made the mistake of not getting to know me and what I know and taking external texts out for now no reason.

quote]

"of all the differences between man and the lower animals, the moral sense or conscience is the most important."

Darwin is a fool. Every animal including Humans rely solely on instinctual survival techniques within and sometimes without a society and civilization of entities and its structure. My dog has as much morality as I do and is as much of an effect of its environment as I am.

Morality speaks to us in a different way than logic: it is not about what we do but what we ought to do.

No, that's called instinct. Logic and intellect over ride such impulses. Instead of being what we "ought to do", it becomes "what happens if we do?" What happens after we do? What happens when we do? How can we best handle this? What is the most efficacious avenue to take for persuing said goal?

Contrary to Darwinist ideas morality presses on us to act against our self-interest.

Not really. Some people's and most people's self interests are addmitedly and considered to be "moral". And then what of moralists? They must act against their self interest of morality?

It urges us not to to help people we don't know and to be honest even when a lie might benefit us more.

Untrue, we only do these things because we were either raised this way or because it will benefit us or take away from us in our own way.

You're obviously just talking about yourself, you're not considering everyone and everything.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Originally posted by Jadette


Let's see if I understand this correctly. Christians are only good, moral people because of God?

Well if that were the case their would not be any confusion.

Morals are, in the end, what society all agrees that they are.

Now THAT would be one helluva quagmire for us to be in.
Just because all the birds are flying in the same direction, doesnt mean it's the right direction.

Our morals have changed over the years,

I agree, it seems we have less and less of them and those that are left by those who are morally concious of them are ridiculed by those who desire to discard them. To call anyone on them is to set youself up for being accused of bigotry.

- Con



[edit on 25-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by OhZone

With so many religions of Love and Peace, why isn't the world getting any better/nicer/more friendly?

Because there are so many aspects to this world that religion cannot solve. This is where a proverb seems true:

"You cannot make straight that which is crooked." This is where I believe a higher power comes in.

I am no longer part of religion (for almost 12 years now) in part, because of what religion represents. Even if some of their motives are good, I believe that there is too much deception in their teachings and often in their behavior. It is my belief that they are more the problem now, rather than the solution.

There are many things that I am grateful to religion for, even though I speak so vehemently against it (most of the time). I did learn boundaries, morality and fairness along with honesty. And yes, one doesn't need religion to learn these things, but they helped me.

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


No point was not illustrated for you in the manner that you are implying. I am created in the image of the universe. I am the universe. I am not created in the image of God alone.

Really? How do you know? where do you get this idea from. Share with us the majesty of the universe, tell us of it's plan for our lives. Does it know me?

The universe is responsible for the logic of God and Satan. By the logic of your statement again, "after all Satan is also responsible for the logic of the universe."

Please share more of where you learn this from and why you have chosen to believe it. Please share with me the wonders of something so great that the God of Abraham bows to it.

Don't tell me what I believe, because one it's not true and two you don't know me nor have you taken the time. You're simply here to impliment conversion tactics. I am disgusted because of what you just demonstrated. I am simultaneously the master of my own ship and the captain of my own destiny and neither.

Well,, I agree with you on this point.

Whammy doesn't know you but he knows enough on a topic you have already shared with him and that is the part I must agree with the whammer. The being "disgusted" part is little over the top don't you think? I figure ,, mmm you are in the skunk works, this IS a forum for debate and the FACT is, you are the sum total of the choices you have made. One of those choices was to worship the creaTOR or the creaTION.

You have chose the latter so

Good luck with that.

- Con



[edit on 25-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by Bigwhammy

If you are "down and out" at the soup kitchen - getting something to eat is quite genuine enough. Bottom line is, who is in Africa taking care of AIDs babies? The Atheist Society? I think not! Who runs the homeless shelters, orphanages, and soup kitchens of the world? In most part Christians.

A characteristic that a lot of religions teach is selflessness, or self-sacrifice.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet


Oh, please! Again, I cannot resist. I have never met a born again evangelist that did not want to convert everyone over, that they can!

yeah enthusiasm is like that.

I have the benefit of having been a religionists myself in the past, and so know every scheme & technique.

lol "scheme"?

But, I don't have anything to convert the atheist over to!

You don't know how true that is

- Con

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

No point was illustrated for you in the manner that you are implying. I am created in the image of the universe.

Congratulations for realizing you are created and not evolved from a monkey.

I am the universe. I am not created in the image of God alone.

Ohh you are the universe. I didn't realize oh great one

Don't tell me what I believe, because one it's not true and two you don't know me nor have you taken the time. You're simply here to impliment conversion tactics.

Whose making assumptions now? Not conversions tactics, I am here to defend my faith form the attack of secularism.I don't recall making any altar calls...

But since you are going to accuse me anyway I might as well be guilty...

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,
and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him
from the dead, thou shalt be Saved. For with the heart man
believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession
is made unto Salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the
name of the Lord shall be Saved.

Romans: Chapter 10 verse 9-10-13

I am disgusted because of what you just demonstrated. I am simultaneously the master of my own ship and the captain of my own destiny and neither.

That was rational...

Well now you're apologizing to no one as you made the mistake of not getting to know me and what I know and taking external texts out for now no reason.

Well I suppose since the topic is atheism I assumed you were one when you attacked God as the source of morality. I apologize for not asking. So your belief is that you are the Universe... correct?

Darwin is a fool.

I agree

Every animal including Humans rely solely on instinctual survival techniques within and sometimes without a society and civilization of entities and its structure. My dog has as much morality as I do and is as much of an effect of its environment as I am.

Now put yourself in the same category as Darwin.

untrue, we only do these things because we were either raised this way or because it will benefit us or take away from us in our own way.

In broad sense maybe so. But I disagree in that people rise above their conditioning through faith. People can act in selfless ways even giving their lives for a greater good because of a sense of moral duty to God.

Steven Weinberg is famous for saying “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

This another deception that a worldly frame of mind will always lead too. Look at all the reformed criminals and hopeless drug addicts that have had complete 180 turn around in their lives due to religious conversion.

I say the exact opposite is the real truth: For evil people to do good things, That takes religion.

Originally posted by Conspiriology
Really? How do you know?

Because it's obvious. It's the truth.

Where do you get this idea from. Share with us the majesty of the universe, tell us of it's plan for our lives. Does it know me?

Yes it does. Do you know yourself? Do I know you? Are you a part of the universe? Am I a part of the universe? I don't know its plan for our lives but I can tell you that it's playing out before your eyes.

Please share more of where you learn this from and why you have chosen to believe it. Please share with me the wonders of something so great that the God of Abraham bows to it.

I'm thinking this is a piece of satire? I've just never had anyone approach this information in this manner.

I learn this from the universe. I don't think I "choose" to believe it, it just is what it is; everything.

One of those choices was to worship the creaTOR or the creaTION.

Neither of those were my choices. I have not told either of you that I worship anything yet. The creator is the creation.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by Hal9000

That was quite an experience that you had. Your senses were awake!

I can understand how an experience like that would lead someone to believe that it was inspired, and I think that is fine.

I guess a thoughtful and intelligent comment to ask is; supposing it was a reality that there was a God and he did step in? Can you 100% rule it out? 75%? 50%? 25%? 15%? 10%? Can you say with real certainty and with proof that it didn't?

As I said earlier, it was a feeling that went along with it that is hard to explain. Also, that I have had too many incidents like that to believe that they were all coincidences, and far too many to list. You know that saying, "Well, you had to be there?"

I can see the conflict because you all still connect God with religion, as you said in the end of your text. I am seeing through all of these posts in reading them that there is a block to "getting" what I am saying. I mean that kindly to all of you, but I just think that there is so much confusion related to God, because of the conditioning from religion.

I don't have any desire to alter anyone, and I thank you all that you have been respectful of mine!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Congratulations for realizing you are created and not evolved from a monkey.

My creation in the image of the universe is evolution. The universe evolves, that is how it creates. It is a constant evolution and transmutation of its eternal energy.

Ohh you are the universe. I didn't realize oh great one

Yeah. So are you. We are both the universe, more specifically "parts" of the universe, but nothing separate from it.

Whose making assumptions now? Not conversions tactics, I am here to defend my faith form the attack of secularism.I don't recall making any altar calls...

No. That's not an assumption, see. What you're using are conversion tactics. You are attempting to make everything God and everyone ruled by God. This is untrue. I never accused you of making altar calls. You are here pushing creationism in a form of which you do not understand; such as the man in the sky taking a clump of dirt and molding me and also attempting to continuously, might I add illogically and ignorantly so, tell me that I am made only in the image of your God.

That was rational...

It was, and let me explain it to you beyond your sarcastic facetiousness.

I seemingly have the ability to "choose" what I want to do, but at the same time I am only a reaction of my environment either way and my environment a reaction of me.

Well I suppose since the topic is atheism I assumed you were one when you attacked God as the source of morality.

I did not attack God, I merely induced universal logic and truth.

I apologize for not asking. So your belief is that you are the Universe... correct?

That's a carnal axiom, not a belief.

Now put yourself in the same category as Darwin.

Might I ask why you are defering to insulting me while not providing any logic or discussion? If you had a reason why you think I'm a fool then feel free to reply to the quote that replied to. Simply stating someone is a fool will not suffice for me and shows illiteracy.

In broad sense maybe so. But I disagree in that people rise above their conditioning through faith.

You mean leave one conditioning for another conditioning. In this sense, faith.

People can act in selfless ways even giving their lives for a greater good because of a sense of moral duty to God.

I agree.

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

I agree.

Look at all the reformed criminals and hopeless drug addicts that have had complete 180 turn around in their lives due to religious conversion.

I agree.

I say the exact opposite is the real truth: For evil people to do good things, That takes religion.

It can be both. I concur.

reply to post by Conspiriology


Con, Con, Con:

Do you realize how confusing you are at times? And how perpetually angry you sound? What is it about this that does not make sense to you, or is contradictory?

You seem to contradict yourself here matrix, in fact that is exactly what you are doing if you answer to those saying the Christian God is a psycho offering concesssions for that aspect of him while in the same thread saying you don't believe in that God.

I am giving confirmation to the other poster as to his feelings or sentiments regarding God. I am not going to shame him and tell him that he is full of @#*$#.

God does seem to be cruel and hateful at times. God does not love everyone as history is our witness. I think using my father as an illustration a few pages back was effective. It illustrated how God can be and how he can be perceived. I won't discount what others feel, but will try to understand it.

LOL!!

I have NEVER seen ANY Christian shoving anything down anyones throat.

The irony in this is something!! Read a few of your posts, sweetie! Look up the word empathy or compassion and then try to apply it. You truly would be taken much more seriously if you came across more seasoned, and not quite so young and over-reactionary.

Positive results?? HA HA HA HA that's funny Matrix.

Jesus oiled the feet of his followers. Have you ever tried diplomacy? Being aggressive and hostile at times will NEVER win popularity votes or show that you are following Jesus as an example. You ought to try it!

PS; ya like that 1 key eh

?????

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
You are attempting to make everything God and everyone ruled by God.

I'm not attempting to make it that way. It is that way

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Might I ask why you are defering to insulting me while not providing any logic or discussion? If you had a reason why you think I'm a fool then feel free to reply to the quote that replied to. Simply stating someone is a fool will not suffice for me and shows illiteracy.

I was referring to this foolish statement you made...

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Every animal including Humans rely solely on instinctual survival techniques within and sometimes without a society and civilization of entities and its structure. My dog has as much morality as I do and is as much of an effect of its environment as I am.

This is utter nonsense. I already gave examples where people act against their "instinctual survival techniques" for a higher good. In fact you just proved my point by contradicting yourself...

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

originally posted by Bigwhammy
People can act in selfless ways even giving their lives for a greater good because of a sense of moral duty to God.

I agree.