Why are Atheists...Atheists?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
I guess a thoughtful and intelligent comment to ask is; supposing it was a reality that there was a God and he did step in? Can you 100% rule it out? 75%? 50%? 25%? 15%? 10%? Can you say with real certainty and with proof that it didn't?

Yes, I can say with certainty that it was not intervention because this particular person was obviously unsure of what he was doing. I saw that and with confidence I showed him that it was not the way to go. If it was a cold blooded killer in the store that day, I don't know what would have happened. As you say, you had to be there.

I can see the conflict because you all still connect God with religion, as you said in the end of your text.

No there is no conflict. I type with capital letters on purpose for particular words and not to others because I think some words are more important than others and also to be respectful to others who consider them more important. It doesn't give any validity to the words. Although, it is good of you to notice.

Whenever I get into a discussion on God, it is hard to convey what I think, because people don't understand my meaning. I try explaining that IF there was a God, and he was capable of creation as many believe, that my vision of this entity goes beyond the norm. I am into astronomy and am amazed at the processes at work in the universe. Now if there was a being that put this all into place so that the outcome would be human intelligence, then I would say that not only are there easier ways to promote intelligence, that this is definitely going about it the hard way.

A being capable of all this creation would not do things this way. It must be natural. If you look at human beings from an outer perspective, you will find that we have many things in common with other species on this planet. We have two eyes, two ears, a nose and a mouth. So do many other animals. The only difference between us and the animal world is that our intelligence is at a higher level. So if there was a being at even a higher level than us, it would be impossible for us to comprehend.

I think we should accept who we are, and try to better ourselves. We don't need a God or religion to do that, but if it helps others to do that, then so be it.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I'm not attempting to make it that way. It is that way

It is not that way, though the law of the land that we have implimented on this planet is true to your definition. The universe is not God. It is both good and evil. That is unless you are calling God evil... in which case evil is then God, and as such the universe is then both good and evil again and everything is not only God under such logic, but also evil.

originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal
Every animal including Humans rely solely on instinctual survival techniques within and sometimes without a society and civilization of entities and its structure.

Do you not understand and observe this as true? You are a result of your culture and you exist and continue to live because of instinctual survival techniques.

My dog has as much morality as I do and is as much of an effect of its environment as I am.

This is true as well. My dog is a direct result of me and what I have taught it or failed to teach it.

This is utter nonsense. I already gave examples where people act against their "instinctual survival techniques" for a higher good. In fact you just proved my point by contradicting yourself...

No, what happens is that people's "instincutal survival techniques" then become living for a higher good because they are promised eternal life. So their life becomes living for an eternal life, therefore their instinctual survival technique morphs into one of an eternal persuance. They want to survive for eternity and will live in the way that which this eternal life is promised.

They are then conditioned to and ergo become an instinctual "eternal survival technique".

[edit on 26-5-2008 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

reply to post by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal

It is not that way, though the law of the land that we have implimented on this planet is true to your definition. The universe is not God. It is both good and evil. That is unless you are calling God evil... in which case evil is then God, and as such the universe is then both good and evil again and everything is not only God under such logic, but also evil.

I never said the universe was God. New age nonsense. The universe is neither good nor evil. That's pure silliness as well. Things are not moral - only people. Is a knife immoral if I use it to rob someone? No but I am.

God created the universe - he completely transcends it. Your too hung up on the creation. Its just a thing so you think of yourself that way. Unfortunate because you are so much more than that.

Just because God is sovereign over all things doesn't mean he approves of all things- he allows evil - but he does not endorse it. And there will be a day of reckoning.

Do you not understand and observe this as true? You are a result of your culture and you exist and continue to live because of instinctual survival techniques.

No that's a lie taught by Dawinists. Human consciousness is much much more than that. Explain why music is beautiful in terms of "instinctual survival". We do have a soul. We are much more than animals.

This is true as well. My dog is a direct result of me and what I have taught it.

Ok, You designed his teeth to bite through meat? You engineered his bones so he could run well? You made him the breed he is and you endowed that specific breed with it's characteristics? Well you being the whole universe and all, I guess you probably do believe you can do that too. You should open a pet store.

They are then conditioned to and ergo become an instinctual "eternal survival technique".

So you are saying belief in eternity with God is instinctual then?

Hmmm, how did that instinct get programmed in by natural selection?



[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Andre every theory you mentioned was created by a theist. So I guess your point is that good science is a deeply religious activity. Thanks Andre.

You're serious aren’t you....

What are you implying – that they only founded these theories because they believed in god….. how does that makes any sense?

But anyway Bigwhammy, if you want to keep believing in creation that’s fine by me, I just can’t understand how someone can defend such a theory that’s not scientific and then have the audacity to mock people who defend theories that are scientific ….it’s beyond me…




[edit on 26-5-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by MatrixProphet



to me, without doubt God exists.

I personally believe those that go away from God are just not happy that they cannot live by their own rules and do not or cannot adjust away from their own actions and thoughts.

Contradictions are things not understood, its a simple as that. God, an all powerful entity in charge, do people honestly think they can believe in God and not realise that there are rules to follow?

People create a God in their own image, this way they become sinless in their own mind and that leads to the thinking that we can become gods.

its a hard life being a Christian, but mine is a happy one. I would go through all my woes (wrong to list them here) time and time again as long as I knew that God would call me to repentance each time.

I know God exists. i can see where he has tried to get my attention through my life and i see my prayers answered. some over years and months but some within minutes and even instantly and i do not mean obscure things

Some one once told me the following about God

If i am wrong and there is no God ive made a small error

but if you are wrong and there is God you have made a grave mistake.

Many people believe in Ghosts and sprits and do not believe in God, they seek mediums and fortune tellers but do not believe in God.

Oh yes God exists alright, i may find some of his words, confusing and hard but he is there and praise be to him.

david

reply to post by andre18


hello there

could you tell me how old the earth is?

much appreciated

david

reply to post by andre18


Andre your opinions on the Bible are always ignorant of what the Bible actually says. Everyone of those scientific theories you used to mock Christianity was created by a Christian. So explain that? Maybe your understanding of Christianity is the problem Andre. Not Christianity your ignorance of what it really says.

I think you get creation confused with Young earth creationism. So because a few atheists are Raelians does that mean all atheists are Realian sex cult members? Just because a few Christians claim the world is young doesn't mean everyone thinks so. The Bible makes no claim of the age of the earth.

Creation is completely scientific !!! Atheist hate the Big Bang because it verifies what the Bible has always said. Atheists used to claim an eternal universe. Oh well the Big Bang proved atheism is NOT scientific.

Everyone of those scientific theories you used to mock Christianity was created by a Christian. So explain that?

What's there to explain - why should it matter if Christians created these theories.....? I don't understands your rationale

Just because a few Christians claim the world is young doesn't mean everyone thinks so.

But the majority of Christians do

Creation is completely scientific !!!

and....ummm, how?

Atheist hate the Big Bang because it verifies what the Bible has always said. Atheists used to claim an eternal universe. Oh well the Big Bang proved atheism is NOT scientific.

WTF...yeah you're right atheism is NOT a scientific theory, because atheism is not a theory....... Creation is a theory...... but is not a scientific theory. As I said before - "creation and intelligent design are not actual scientific theories and can never be because they are not falsifiable – you can not disprove ‘god did it.'

[edit on 26-5-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by Hal9000


hello Hal

sorry to butt in

we are ALL instruments of God, God works through us. let me put this to you.

1) the gunman was under the influence of a demonic entity
2) That entity would recognise the Holy Spirit working through you, even if you did not.
3) The Holy spirits Authority would compel the demonic entity to stop its plan.

david

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


Because it's obvious. It's the truth.

mmm I thought I might get a more specific answer than the old "because I said so" kind of thing.

Yes it does. Do you know yourself? Do I know you? Are you a part of the universe? Am I a part of the universe? I don't know its plan for our lives but I can tell you that it's playing out before your eyes.

I'm thinking this is a piece of satire? I've just never had anyone approach this information in this manner..

I seem to have that effect on people

I learn this from the universe. I don't think I "choose" to believe it, it just is what it is; everything.

so does that mean what you learn from the universe you dont believe or you don't choose to believe it but believe it anyway?

Neither of those were my choices. I have not told either of you that I worship anything yet. The creator is the creation.

oh you must be talking about whammy and I. Well you are right, in fact, you haven't really told me a thing.

Ya know, if you just said it's none of my business, it would have been a lot easier.


- Con




[edit on 26-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Do you realize how confusing you are at times? And how perpetually angry you sound?

What is it about this that does not make sense to you, or is confusing?
Do you keep saying I am angry to make me angry or do my fonts scream at you in anger. I told you this is presumptuous and I am saying it again.
Matrix, you don't have the capacity to make me angry. If I am anything at all regarding you, it is,, indifference.

What is it about this that does not make sense to you, or is contradictory?

I am giving confirmation to the other poster as to his feelings or sentiments regarding God. I am not going to shame him and tell him that he is full of @#*$#..

Yes that would be the pot calling the kettle black now wouldnt it.

God does seem to be cruel and hateful at times. God does not love everyone as history is our witness

.

I think using my father as an illustration a few pages back was effective. It illustrated how God can be and how he can be perceived. I won't discount what others feel, but will try to understand it.

I wouldnt know, I don't have a custom made God like you have

I have NEVER seen ANY Christian shoving anything down anyones throat.

The irony in this is something!! Read a few of your posts, sweetie! Look up the word empathy or compassion and then try to apply it. You truly would be taken much more seriously if you came across more seasoned, and not quite so young and over-reactionary.

I have shoved nothing down your throat matrix, in fact I have never tried to convert you at all. What you call empathy and compassion is a crock because in every post you have asked me a question you have made subtle innuendo from my immaturity to my lack of understanding about spirituality and now my over reactionary unseasoned amatuer posts that seem to come across as a kid all the while accusing me of being angry only because I won't compromise on my faith.

You conversely, seem to be the most passive aggressive person Ive seen.

You tell me my writing is unseasoned while you make presumptuous character assasinations behind the guise of someone so much more spiritually aware and in tune with God.

Just because you sugarcoat the crap out of veiled ad-hom opinionated superiority doesn't mean you are using diplomacy matrix. So before you start giving me advice while you doing the best you can to get my goat.
you might want to quit being so

damn disrespectful

- Con









[edit on 26-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

reply to post by andre18

What's there to explain - why should it matter if Christians created these theories.....? I don't understands your rationale

You are attempting to mock Christians with science that was created by Christians and in no way conflicts with the teachings of Christianity. Don't you see how ignorant that is? What is your rationale? Are you desperately reaching out for help or something?

But the majority of Christians do

No they do not. I challenge you to prove it or shut up for all time. You keep telling the same lies and getting busted over an over. Have no sense of personal pride or do you just enjoy being publicly embarrassed?

and....ummm, how?

This is how creation is scientific

WTF...yeah you're right atheism is NOT a scientific theory, because atheism is not a theory.......

Your right atheism is a religion.

Creation is a theory...... but is not a scientific theory. As I said before - "creation and intelligent design are not actual scientific theories and can never be because they are not falsifiable – you can not disprove ‘god did it.'

No creation is pretty much scientific fact being verified from the second law of thermodynamics, Einsteins theory of General relativity, the Big Bang Theory and the Anthropic principal.

reply to post by drevill

Hello Dave, and that is one way of looking at the situation. Could this person be possessed or in other words controlled by someone or something else? Then that would mean that we are not in control of our own actions and contradicts the idea of free will, doesn't it? We could blame every thing wrong that we do to "the devil made me do it". That would make it easier, but sorry, I don't think so.

[edit on 5/26/2008 by Hal9000]

Mathematics is the language of science - in fact I would go so far to say that it appears to be the language of the universe(s).....

DNA also appears to be a "code" - another form of language....

Are the principles of mathematics inventions of the human mind alone or based on observations of the natural world "discovered" through experimentation?
If the latter is true then it begs the question....if mathematics is the language of the universe then WHO or WHAT is speaking?....

This is a question that has been asked by some of the greatest minds in the world...

in other words language in the form of mathematical principles or in the case of DNA in the form of a code....where does this language come from?

The principles that have been discovered will continue even when the brain that discovered them is long gone....so these principles are not dependent on our minds for their existence....

Can a program invent itself? Or does it need a programmer?

Okay talk amongst yourselves and get back to me with some cool stuff - I don't care which side of the argument you fall out on - but try not attack the crap outta each other - I can't stand the sight of blood

Originally posted by Hal9000
reply to post by drevill

 

Then that would mean that we are not in control of our own actions and contradicts the idea of free will, doesn't it?

hello Hal,

no i think the complete opposite

free will would also incorporate the allowing of demonic influences, you cant have free will and not allow this to be included

you have free will to petition God for removal of these "evil" influences, thoughts and actions be them our own or demonic or even from others

The person doesn't have to be "possessed" in the popular sense though.

david

The Collapse of Atheism

This only 5 minutes of a five part series. Follow the You Tube link to see the rest. youtube.com...

We are at a turning point in the history of mankind. Atheism, that has so influenced the world of science and thought since the 18th century, is now undergoing an inevitable collapse. In this film you will see how the most basic assumptions of atheism collapsed with scientific, political and sociological developments in the past decades. From the theories of Charles Darwin or Sigmund Freud, to the fall of communism or the hippie dream, see how the atheist dogma falls at the dawn of the 21st century

You are attempting to mock Christians with science that was created by Christians and in no way conflicts with the teachings of Christianity.

No, I’m attempting to show that creationists don’t know the difference between a scientific theory and an unscientific theory – like creation….

“A scientific theory is a set observed related events based upon accumulated evidence, laws, hypothesis and proven facts and then agreed upon and reviewed by multiple scientists until there is a scientific consensus for such to become a theory.”

Creation is not falsifiable – god created the universe – what is god – define god. You can not disprove ‘god did it.’ God made the trees, the snow, the wind – how are scientists meant to disprove that?

The same principles apply to - Mr Ghost made the trees, the snow, the wind – how are scientists meant to disprove that? Mr Ghost created the universe – what is Mr Ghost – define Mr Ghost. What ever you define god to be I can define Mr Ghost as the exact same thing.

No they do not. I challenge you to prove it or shut up for all time

Say what? The entire consensus of Christians believe the world is only 6 thousand years old, hell, there are Christians attempting to prove it
www.independencebaptist.org...

www.godsaidmansaid.com...

Now Bigwhammy “shut up for all time”……. (maybe you are one of a few Christians that believe the world is billions of years old but you’re not the vast majority)

This is how creation is scientific

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause. That cause we call God.

Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause. That cause we call Mr Ghost – prove otherwise

Your right atheism is a religion.

Atheism a religion? LOL.

Atheism is not a belief system, if being an atheist is being in a religion them simply not believing in Zeus is being religious. How does not believing in something make it a religion?

[edit on 26-5-2008 by andre18]

Bigwhammy:

Stop saying you have evidence that God exists. Your own 3000 year old book, written by nut-cases with no verifiable credibility, says that God is unknowable. You CAN NOT confirm His existence, or lack thereof. To do so is a paradox, at least with your Judeo-Christian god. He is absolutely infalliable and says that you shall not know him, but you prove his existence, thereby proving him falliable and therefore non-existant, since He is inextricable from this aspect of his nature.

There can be NO evidence for the god of the Bible's existence for that reason.

You are in no way theological. You are a zealot.

reply to post by andre18

No, I’m attempting to show that creationists don’t know the difference between a scientific theory and an unscientific theory – like creation….

I think you just made up this theory of creation. It is an event it is not a theory. How do you define creation Andre? All "creation" means is that the universe had a beginning - it was created. It doesn't say anything about "who" or why.

So the cosmological proof:
Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
The universe began to exist.
Therefore the universe has a cause.

Does indeed proves creation.

Say what? The entire consensus of Christians believe the world is only 6 thousand years old, hell, there are Christians attempting to prove it
www.independencebaptist.org...

www.godsaidmansaid.com...

"The entire consensus of Christians "

You've really outdone yourself in the imbecile department this time.

How do two insignificant web pages account for the beliefs of 2.1 Billion Christians?

Now you really need to shut up about it for all time, because you failed to prove your original bigoted statement,

originally posted by Andre
But the majority of Christians do

or even that half of Christians believe in young earth creationism. I assure you it is a very small percentage. The Catholics even believe in evolution Andre. Get a clue son!

Quite so, andre18. In fact, right now I will posit a new "theory" of everything. Everything in existence, events, dimensions, energy, matter, and all its forms, are because my right big toe likes it that way.

I challenge anyone to refute me.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by Korhyan]