Why are Atheists...Atheists?

reply to post by Korhyan

Everything in existence, events, dimensions, energy, matter, and all its forms, are because my right big toe likes it that way.

I challenge anyone to refute me.

Challenge accepted

I refute your theory quite easily with one experiment. I'm going to chop of your toe an grind it in a meat grinder and we'll see what effect that has on the universe.

With that, I respectfully bow out, the level of desperation from the atheists has grown a little sad for me now.

Toodles!

[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Christians propose the universe was created by ‘god’ – it is their theory, an idea, a concept etc. This theory goes through a scientific analysis and is proven to be unscientific otherwise I myself could claim the exact same theory only claiming Mr ghost did it, since we can not define what this god figure is…..

That was just an example – duh……What do you expect me to do, get off my ass as of this moment and travel across the globe asking every single person what they believe?

But how do your personal views encompass the majority of Christians? I’ve talked with plenty of Christians that believe the world is in fact 6000 years old….. Call it ignorance if you want…..but that’s the general belief of what Christians accept to be true.

Originally posted by realshanti
Mathematics is the language of science - in fact I would go so far to say that it appears to be the language of the universe(s).....

DNA also appears to be a "code" - another form of language....

Are the principles of mathematics inventions of the human mind alone or based on observations of the natural world "discovered" through experimentation?
If the latter is true then it begs the question....if mathematics is the language of the universe then WHO or WHAT is speaking?....

This is a question that has been asked by some of the greatest minds in the world...

Does a program invent itself or does it need a programmer?s

Okay no answers for me yet from the atheist side -hmmmm....is the question too hard?

my answer is that there is indeed a "programmer" - a meta- programmer ....Language comes from intelligence, an intelligence in fact that preceded the human brain because mathematics as stated before is the language of the universe...and that intelligence is GOD....or as the Greeks liked to call HIM - the unknown GOD...

Even Hawkings has had to admit that the randomness theory holds no water as the random factors of time required to produce a universe this ordered and complex would be so astronomical that it would exceed the age of the universe itself...or has someone pointed that out already?

feel free to chime in...

Originally posted by andre18
Christians propose the universe was created by ‘god’ – it is their theory, an idea, a concept etc. This theory goes through a scientific analysis and is proven to be unscientific otherwise I myself could claim the exact same theory only claiming Mr ghost did it, since we can not define what this god figure is…..

I admit science has directly proven God created the universe but the more they learn the more they verify the Bible account. Never the other way. For istance for 100s of years atheists insisted the universe was eternal and the creation account was wrong because of that. Then Einsteins general realativity proved the universe has to have a beginning. Science proves the Bible never - atheist lose. - get over it - God will forgive you for it.

That was just an example – duh……What do you expect me to do, get off my ass as of this moment and travel across the globe asking every single person what they believe?

But how do your personal views encompass the majority of Christians? I’ve talked with plenty of Christians that believe the world is in fact 6000 years old….. Call it ignorance if you want…..but that’s the general belief of what Christians accept to be true.

No sorry Andre, you misunderstood me. I was calling you ignorant.

The Bible makes no claim of the age of the earth.

Andre you are the one making ignorant statements that the "consensus of" and "majority of" Christians believe the universe is 6,000 years old. You made the claim you should be able to provide statistics to back it up or shut up. Pathetic.



[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by realshanti


Excellent points realshanti!

Let's let Dr John Lennox of Oxford university explain the fine tuning of the universe. Also known as the anthropic principal.



Oh by the way Dr Lennox defeated Richard Dawkins in "The God Delusion" Debate which was score 1-0 Lennox.

poor atheists...

Albert Einstein was an Atheist, and he is the smartest human being to ever live on this planet. Here is a quote from Albert....

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

source

I think Atheism goes hand in hand with higher Intelligence. I have a very high IQ and I am an Atheist. I am an Atheist because I have studied religion extensively and I have no proof that GOD exists. It is as simple as that. I look at believing in GOD in the same way that I look at believing in the boogey man or the tooth fairy.

Here is Georg Carlin's take on religion. You can watch a video of this by searching youtube for "George Carlin religion". I can't post the video because it contains vulgarity.

When it comes to bullsh**, big-time, major league bullsh**, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bulsh** story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bulsh** story. Holy Sh**!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is messed up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of Sh** you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful butt a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever mess things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a care. Doesn't give a care, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a Sh**, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of of the the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshiper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshiper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to have sex with that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fu** up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the heck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't mess around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that sucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was.

In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my testicles hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!

Originally posted by Conspiriology

I tell ya what guy,, forget about the pm's and you know what you can do with the disingenuous suggestion that you actually cared about offending me. None was taken but I can see that it doesn't matter now anyway after that last comment. After that last post, you can expect one to be defensive. People normally get that way when they are being ATTACKED.

It seems you are guilty of everything you

just accused me of

- Con

Maybe i am i apologise for the weakness of character on my behalf then but let's move on past the personal bickering as that doesn't stop there for being huge flaws in the bible or peoples belief systems and it doesn't stop me from wanting to deny ignorance NO MATTER WHAT MY BELIEF SYSTEM IS.

Your ducking and diving here on an emotional fallacy and i've provided you with what you required as many verses and chapter numbers of the 'GOD' killing people directly and indirectly via PM it's all there in your bible i have no reason to lie to you.

It's been there for hundreds of years all this time the evidence of GOD being a cold killer....

This is not some sort of game of atheists vs believers this is the pursuit of clarity and understanding.

reply to post by Bigwhammy



Duh they were paid for their work. That doesn't imply they shared the same sensibilities. They had to earn a living the church paid well.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Pjotr

 

because the sheer act of deconstructing your thoughts and mental and bodily routines opens your mind and keeps us flowing. As soon as you reach a conclusion, your mind closes in defensive position and stops thinking and returns "back to normal" (which in my view is self- and/or collective created illusion). I see us as beings which are able to grow and change their reality, so stopping the flow is a detrimental action IMO.

Actually, it can be by reaching some conclusions that one may reach others! If we stay in a comfort zone of familiarity or blocking a conclusion we may be cutting ourselves off from genius.

We can draw conclusions and still be moving forward in our thinking and the universal flow. Here is a quote I like that fits:

"Once your mind has been stretched to a new idea, it never returns to original dimension." -Oliver Wendell Holmes

Well, we are on the same page than, except for the fact that once you draw conclusions you may still be moving forward, but not in respect to the made conclusion, but in regard to all the aspects in which you did not reach a conclusion. We live in conglomerate of facets, but it is the core sets of "agreements (conclusions)" that keeps us fixed on the spot.

"Words are truly magic. When you "conclude", you "bring to an end; close", your mind stops, the power of imagination is in the end the power of realization.

But you are right if you mean that it sometimes impossible to reach further that you reached and you will have to travel in a sketched landscape for a while before being able to ascend that.

[edit on 26-5-2008 by Pjotr]

As an atheist, I find that I have a better understanding of the world around me.
I was raised Catholic...which included Sunday school, first communion and such. When in Sunday school *I was around 10-11 years old* we were discussing Genesis, specifically human origins. Liking science then as much as i do now, I made the stupid mistake of mentioning evolution.

The Sunday school teacher laughed at me and said, "If evolution where true, why did the other monkeys not evolve in to man?" With that little comment my classmates broke into laughter. I felt like an idiot and most importantly, I was pissed. I was in Sunday school to get ready for my confirmation. I never went through with it. It was then when i realized how much people are blinded by religion that they're willing to not even look into what could be possible.

Since then I stopped going to church *except on holidays which I do to keep the family happy*, and I have not even looked at a religion as anything more than just a club that relies heavily on faith instead of knowledge.

So to answer your question, I am atheist because i believe in tangible evidence, not gut feelings or what 3000 year old book written by man says is true.
In other words, unless I see proof of God, or hear a booming voice from the heavens, I will remain atheist.

What makes God any different from Hitler or any other tyrant...

I mean seriously how many people does one have to kill before they're deemed 'evil'???

What kind of person sends you to burn forever for not subscribing to their system. It's exacatly like Hitler sending people to the ovens for not following the Nazi idelology to the letter.

Even serial killers are capable of loving their children and having relationships but it doesn't excuse their crimes does it.

You've got to question the logic of a believer..they're so deseparate to get to heaven they'll follow god so in theory;

Say God tells you to murder your family or another person your going to do it just to impress it?? Your seriously going to murder another person because your creator tells you too..........

And then by that logic any other believer could kill you because God told them to so you spend your whole life following the bible to the letter and you get wiped out becase God suddenly decides your worthless.

And even if you do follow God's orders your going to hell anyway for breaking the ten commandments and the cain and able kill your brother sin thing it's just in your desperation to believe your 'special' that you think the rules are going to change just for you...

Or in that case every sick killer out there who is Christain and has 'belief' is going to be heaven...you'll have Herod, Samson and everyone in their as well....

I mean when do you stop relying on a crutch and become your own person is the real question.

In my opinion it's painfully obvious that monothestic religions are man made.

Maybe their is a 'god' out there but it's not the same one as in the books.

reply to post by cpjason


I love George Carlin and that was very funny - I've seen that piece....however my experience of GOD is very different now to what he describes though I asked all those same questions and had many of those sentiments - why? - because of humans and their hypocrisy, their insensitivity, their violence, and I thought that was a product of belief but I was wrong - all of that is a product of ignorance and not the work of GOD...many people will tell you they believe but never pick up their Bible to actually read IN CONTEXT what is being said or meditate on the message....and then they want to tell what they think the Bible says having never read it and non-believers do the same damn thing - the new testament is full of this same dilema in the various church bodies of the time - so one day I put my fk u attitude towards "religion" and its hypocrites on hold and found that it wasn't religion I was looking for at all, or a social club of perfect "Christians" but a spiritual relationship with the ineffable...

Okies sorry about that rambling confession- I know this is supposed to be about atheists....but honestly this has been a great thread so far - with everyone pretty much tussling and giving as good as they get....I've been on here for hours reading - learning about all of you, so now I'm pulling myself away to get some sleep and get ready for the memorial day sale stampede at Macy's...how ineffable is that

EDIT:
oh and one more thing - not a single one of you atheists has taken on my question from my previous post....come one now kids....get with it

[edit on 26-5-2008 by realshanti]

reply to post by cpjason


Boy did you just step in it....

Albert Einstein was an Atheist, and he is the smartest human being to ever live on this planet. Here is a quote from Albert....

lets's make it several quotes...

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)

I guess you better stick to quoting comedians. The serious stuff seems to whiz right over your head.

[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


blinding quotes,

Game set and match my friend!

david

[edit on 26/5/2008 by drevill]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by cpjason

 

Boy did you just step in it....

Albert Einstein was an Atheist, and he is the smartest human being to ever live on this planet. Here is a quote from Albert....

lets's make it several quotes...

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)

I guess you better stick to quoting comedians. The serious stuff seems to whiz right over your head.

[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Wait a minute lol Einstien just made your point moot as well.

Are you so much of fanatic you cannot see what the man was saying????

[edit on 26-5-2008 by SR]

reply to post by SR


Actually he is saying that Atheists who quote him are as bad as religious fanatics.....and I agree but defending one's belief or arguing in opposition to your argument is not the same as fanaticism....

fanaticism is the spanish inquistion, the burning of "witches", the crusades, the jihad, the buddhist who imolates himself - we're talking on a thread and arguing our positions....
so get a grip - you blew that one

Originally posted by realshanti

Originally posted by realshanti
Mathematics is the language of science - in fact I would go so far to say that it appears to be the language of the universe(s).....

DNA also appears to be a "code" - another form of language....

Are the principles of mathematics inventions of the human mind alone or based on observations of the natural world "discovered" through experimentation?
If the latter is true then it begs the question....if mathematics is the language of the universe then WHO or WHAT is speaking?....

This is a question that has been asked by some of the greatest minds in the world...

Does a program invent itself or does it need a programmer?s

Okay no answers for me yet from the atheist side -hmmmm....is the question too hard?

my answer is that there is indeed a "programmer" - a meta- programmer ....Language comes from intelligence, an intelligence in fact that preceded the human brain because mathematics as stated before is the language of the universe...and that intelligence is GOD....or as the Greeks liked to call HIM - the unknown GOD...

Even Hawkings has had to admit that the randomness theory holds no water as the random factors of time required to produce a universe this ordered and complex would be so astronomical that it would exceed the age of the universe itself...or has someone pointed that out already?

feel free to chime in...

How long did it take us as a species to start to recognise maths??? Alot longer than 6000 years....Which in it's self rubbishes the claims of the bible.

causation presupposes both existence and time

A 'God' may well exist but no way are the claims of The Torah, Bible, Koran the true definitions and will of this entity. Even Hawkings justifies that and you seem to be leaning towards it with your point...

The randomness of the events and time frame they take place in x the complexity of everything around us

Certainely doesn't justify religion in anyway.

Originally posted by realshanti
reply to post by SR

 

Actually he is saying that Atheists who quote him are as bad as religious fanatics.....and I agree but defending one's belief or arguing in opposition to your argument is not the same as fanaticism....

fanaticism is the spanish inquistion, the burning of "witches", the crusades, the jihad, the buddhist who imolates himself - we're talking on a thread and arguing our positions....
so get a grip - you blew that one

Exacatly he propses both sides are as flawed as each other because of their ignorance in belief that each are absoblute truths.

Einstien is smart enough to know theirs a intelligent design it exists atheists are ignorant to deny it but it's nothing to do with our religions and the religious fanatics are ignorant to propse it is.

Hence neither side wins and the pursuit of clarity and understanding is propsed instead of one of the other old ways of thinking.

reply to post by cpjason

Albert Einstein was an Atheist, and he is the smartest human being to ever live on this planet. Here is a quote from Albert....

Actually, you are incorrect. Go to my thread on Einstein:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The quote you used was Einstein showing that he felt nothing for religion. Again, atheists seem to have a mental block regarding God vs. religion. I am not religious nor do I believe in religion. But like Einstein, I do believe in God!

If you research him more, you will find that he refuted the atheist rumor. And yes, he was considered one of the smartest people alive, smart enough to believe in God!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by cpjason

 

Boy did you just step in it....

Albert Einstein was an Atheist, and he is the smartest human being to ever live on this planet. Here is a quote from Albert....

lets's make it several quotes...

In the view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support for such views. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, p. 214)

I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know his thoughts. The rest are details. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p.202)

Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is the same as that of the religious fanatics, and it springs from the same source . . . They are creatures who can't hear the music of the spheres. (The Expanded Quotable Einstein, Princeton University Press, 2000 p. 214)

I guess you better stick to quoting comedians. The serious stuff seems to whiz right over your head.

[edit on 5/26/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Good comment! Starred. Many people make that mistake. He was also the one who said: "God does not throw dices"(=coincidence cannot play a role in thesubatomic field. This in the discussion about classical physics against quantum theory, I believe, but I could be wrong here). Do you see that for Einstein it is not about Yes or NO to God, but about the "HOW" and "beauty". Fanatism about theory is not his stance.

But you bring up an interesting topic within this topic.
That is: Is beauty/complexity/harmony and all together something that proofs an exquisite intelligence in the make up?

Many people I met use this "complexity" as a motive, that it can't be just here on itself, it cannot be coincidence.

I had a few moments in my live where my view and understanding of "all", was turned upside down and a new horizon showed itself. Those moments feel devine, as moments of enlightenment. It is as if you can literally feel yourself as part of the whole, and your fears and doubts are nowhere to be found for a moment. You feel in love with everything.

Many people see these moments as unshakable proof of the existence of a divine power.
I still hesitate to pinpoint that feeling as something. Yes, there is something more powerful thatn me, I call it nature. The essence of nature I call energy or intent. It also can give the feeling of predestination, especially when you had visions that became true.

Still, what is it? I think because we do not know we call it "god", or "allah" and we link good and evil to it and so the ship of religion (a genesis) takes off.

We do not know and because we can't bear that in everyday live we need stories. Just stories. a bit of truth, a bit of salt and pepper.


[edit on 26-5-2008 by Pjotr]