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Why are Atheists...Atheists?

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posted on May, 24 2008 @ 10:50 PM
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reply to post by fooffstarr
 


Oh it is and famous atheists like Antony Flu have been converting due to evidence like the anthropic principal (look it up). The war between science and the church is largely and atheist fable. I have a whole thread about it...

Science Meet Your Maker

[edit on 5/24/2008 by Bigwhammy]




posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Souces? Do you mean like barbecue our sweet and sour?

Famous Atheist Professor Antony Garrard Newton Flew converts to theism due to the scientific evidence.

That's a souce, ATSers used to be big on asking for those. Now the jackass with Opie and Anthony in his sig is taking on the role of the old masters.



The math you speak of relies on concepts like "imaginary time" which is purely the magical thinking of atheists like Stephen Hawking who are desperately trying to explain away the anthropic principal.


Now now, it isn't actually imaginary. Think "imaginary numbers." It's just a label to explain a concept.
Imaginary time is only one viable option for M theory, and it was concieved to get around that nasty "infinite spacetime curvature" of singularities, which really is more of a general relativity thing.


M Theory amounts to nothing but New Age dreaming but anyone who can believe in multiple universes should have no problem believing in heaven and hell. Just think of them as "alternate universes."


Actually, I find alternate universes WAY more believable than heaven and hell. You can read my other posts here for my feelings there.

For example, I tackled heaven and hell as punishment and reward here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
But of course the arguement against will be just be, "you can't expect to God to follow human rationality." And of course my response is that God should be ever more reasonable than humans. But of course if he did exist he would be.

I don't like cop out answers, they make for lazy brains.

AND, reason number two as to why alternate universes are way more believable...

we may have found one.
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:17 AM
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I have to agree. Time is all too real.

It's just a measuring device, but it's definitely there.



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:22 AM
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Hello Bigwhammy.
I once was told that a million monkies given a million typewritters and unlimited paper for a million years, could never reproduce the works of the Bard.
Perhaps not.
But given the resulting paperwork, one good editor could certainly produce the works of the Bard, by deadline.
However.
Given that we are but children in our understanding of even our little bailywicks, we have a vague feeling that we are not the center of the universe.
Possibly not truly the apple of the eye of whatever created all that is.
Perhaps there are others, maybe they have different gods, who drop by sometimes, you know, a little blessing here and there and his children would no longer weep for their childrens sake.
Perhaps the Goddess Diana (mentioned in the KJV) could drop a nice fat deer on the doorstep, Pan could pipe you to the door and the auld folke would enter to leave a gift of gold, as you took in your gift of flesh.
Jove's mighty bolts having given you the fire so you would not freeze, and to cook your foods.
He threw his bolt at his beloved oak, for his love for you was greater, you are comforted in the face of winter.
Then there's this other god that wants you dead, but demands your adoration, and offerings while you are living.
You know the one.
The one with the generic name.
Child mashed by the schoolbus?
Well praise the lord!
Only the good die young!
Right?
Mankind could never fathom the mind of any creator of the universe.
Relax, if there are gods, or one god with multiple personalities (they can treat that), you can't know what it expects from you, just be what you are and if that means some form of worship or devotion to some Hairy Thunderer, it's what works for you, congratulations, you have found your way!
I still seek the question, once acquired, at that time I shall seek answers.
Not before.
Chaos does not exist, and cannot be produced, physics is good clean fun, but the more we know, the more we know we know nothing.
Some of us do not even suspect.





[edit on 25-5-2008 by Luminaught]

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Luminaught]



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 04:42 AM
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reply to post by Drakiir
 



Explain your belief to a psychologist and than we will see who is the saner one in the psychologists opinion, at least I can see spirits, can you see God?


Yeah Drakiir I think your little scenario needs a little examination.

Considering most people in the United States believe in God the odds are in my favor the psychologist would agree with me. Hey he might even be a member of my church. Even if he was an atheist not he would be quite familiar with my faith as it is a common and accepted belief.

Now when you start to tell him that you see and talk to spirits - unless you make one pop up in the room and explain it to him- he's going to recommend that you be held for observation. Psychologists usually refer to it as psychosis.



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 07:11 AM
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Why am I an atheist? – Because I choose not to believe in the supernatural, my beliefs are based on common sense, logic and evidence…. Three things you simply can’t have if you believe in god.

If I was a deist I’d have to believe creation is plausible, that simply can not be. If I was to believe in creation, I’d have to disregard the scientific theory.

A lot of people (mainly creationists) don’t know the difference between a scientific theory and a theory on how Big brother keeps coming back every year….

A scientific theory is a set observed related events based upon accumulated evidence, laws, hypothesis and proven facts and then agreed upon and reviewed by multiple scientists until there is a scientific consensus for such to become a theory.

Evolution is both a theory and a fact, for example the theory of gravity is both a theory and a scientific law and a fact. Another important element of the theory is that it is falsifiable, that it can be proven wrong. That is why pseudo religious dogma theories such as creation and intelligent design are not actual scientific theories and can never be because they are not falsifiable – you can not disprove ‘god did it.’

theories –
The theory of Electromagnetism
The theory of Atomics ‘
The theory of Gravity
The theory of Heliocentrism

Don’t worry, the earth going around the sun – it’s only a theory, maybe the bible’s right after all.



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 07:47 AM
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My 2 cents,

Their is nothing to debate. Just a postulatioin here, but read till the end and you will know what I mean.

For me their is no NEED to believe in anything, except for the possibility of positive growth.

"A" god as some sort of regulating centre of power seems a ludicrous idea mostly formed after a selfimage of the believer.

We do not "know" anything, we work with temporary acknowlegdements of our existence and theories.

I see and feel and work with a force I call "intent". I do not know if it IS everywhere. In science terms that could be something near to electromagnetic energy. "Seeing and feeling" migth be knowing on a more basic level, but seeing and feeling are more just that then knowing.

So if you want to label me, you could say I am an agnostic, I believe in postponing assurance of knowlegde , because the sheer act of deconstructing your thoughts and mental and bodily routines opens your mind and keeps us flowing. As soon as you reach a conclusion, your mind closes in defensive position and stops thinking and returns "back to normal" (which in my view is self- and/or collective created illusion). I see us as beings which are able to grow and change their reality, so stopping the flow is a detrimental action IMO.

"Believing and Knowing" fixes us in time (knowing) locked ot a selfcreated future (believing) and sets us up for confrontation and conflict with other believes and views.

Keep it flowing, I don't see or feel a beginning or end of consciousness.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by Pjotr]



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 08:12 AM
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It has always stroke me as weird that so many people in the US are christian compared to Europe. Although a minority of people are influenced with the creationist point of view which somehow found its way from the US to Europe. No offense but to me this is the most silly idea I've ever heard of.

I am surprised though that so many creationists are on this forum. Harly the kind of people I would expect to have an open mind towards all the stuff we talk about on ATS. But this also might be a "cultural" difference.

I used to think that the level of material wealth could account for the decay of religion in the west, but that doesn't account for the major difference between Europe and the US. How come so many people still visit church in the US??

In the Netherlands they even invented a new definition for the majority of people who don't believe in a god but believe there is "something". These people are even called "something-ists" (ok, I agree it is a lousy translation, but the best I can up with).
I think I am one of those. I try to have an open mind: I believe every religion holds a little piece of truth in it like a giant jigsaw puzzle. I believe in ghosts, in ufos, in alternate realities, in angels and demons, but I don't believe in just one god.



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by realshanti
 



because experience has taught me that my GOD has an exquisite sense of irony about such things....


Yes, on this we truly agree!



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Pjotr
 



because the sheer act of deconstructing your thoughts and mental and bodily routines opens your mind and keeps us flowing. As soon as you reach a conclusion, your mind closes in defensive position and stops thinking and returns "back to normal" (which in my view is self- and/or collective created illusion). I see us as beings which are able to grow and change their reality, so stopping the flow is a detrimental action IMO.


Actually, it can be by reaching some conclusions that one may reach others! If we stay in a comfort zone of familiarity or blocking a conclusion we may be cutting ourselves off from genius.

We can draw conclusions and still be moving forward in our thinking and the universal flow. Here is a quote I like that fits:

"Once your mind has been stretched to a new idea, it never returns to original dimension." -Oliver Wendell Holmes



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by leapoffaith
 



I am surprised though that so many creationists are on this forum. Harly the kind of people I would expect to have an open mind towards all the stuff we talk about on ATS. But this also might be a "cultural" difference.


That has been my thinking! I have said so many times, that I do not go onto their Christian sites and try to convert them to my ideas. ATS is a conspiracy site that has the intention of questioning, challenging everything. The evangelicals have a tendency to feel it is their obligation to transform our thinking and through counterfeit love - "help us!"

Religion is not doing that well in the U.S. Many are scrambling to keep it together. Joel Osteen is doing particularly well along with possibly a couple others, but I see it all as going down.

I believe in many Gods. What I call "The Gods." Yes, I believe in a Chairman of the Board with many lesser Gods, but with the possibility of it only being a small part of the overall universal scheme.

Thank you for your post!



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Korhyan
 



I ask again: why are people like Paul considered to be credible? Do you have any reason at all to believe what he wrote. You can not even know that his name was really Paul. You can not even no that he was not actually she. Why do you believe him?


Thank you for your points! I for one believe that Paul was a con-man. I stand by that belief. Everything about that man gives me the creeps. Even when I was religious, I could not stand him.


There are so many points that I would agree with you on. The only difference that matters to me is the origin. I firmly believe in a higher power, creative designer, whom I call Jah (God). But an awful lot of the religious views I question. I might add, I get a lot of heat from my threads as a result!



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 11:14 AM
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reply to post by radardog
 



I am an agnostic atheist.

Where I accept a God could exist, yet don't believe in one.

Why?

It's the intellectually honest thing to do for me. If I had an experience that would inspire faith, then the situation may be different. Until then, I have no reason - personal, scientific, or otherwise - to believe.


Wow! Thank you for your humble post and insight!



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet


Dad’s only recourse besides taking it out on a dog – perhaps, was to believe that there could not be a God, because why would God allow this to happen to a little baby boy?


So they blame God because they don't know God, or think God doesn't care



Another atheist member of my family lost her son in a motorcycle accident while driving under the influence and hit a parked car at 80 miles an hour. She did not have fuzzy, cozy feelings about God anyway (being an academic),


So it is Gods fault her son was drinking and she did not have fuzzy, cozy, feelings because God didn't tell her son, it's dangerous to drink and drive. I guess she didn't have cozy feelings for the Police and the Doctors as they couldn't seem to step in and manage the sons life



but after that incident, she became a staunch religious atheist. She and her husband joined a skeptics group that meets regularly. They read their magazines and promote their literature to anyone (often in demonstrably angry ways) who will listen. Remind you of anyone??


Yes, Mad.



The stand they take is in believing that there must not be a God, because look what happened to them! Their only way to get even is to; denounce God.


If I want to get even with someone matrix, it sure seems silly if the someone I want to get even with, doesn't even exist(exclamation point)

I have known a few Atheists myself and I am certain as smart as you say they all are being attorneys, and doctors and all the other unfounded reasons for alleged increase in I.Q but even THEY would argue that one but for you to say you understand know where the are coming from



There is no other recourse; they cannot turn him in to Child Protection Services. So they often spend an inordinate amount of time talking about a God they don’t believe in. By denouncing him they can subvert some of their anger.
I can say; I understand where they are coming from.


My favorite argument with Atheists that claim raising our children as Christians is tantamount to child abuse but you seem to be offering an excuse for their anger by saying they can "subvert" it when what I think you mean is sublimate their anger. Doesn't really matter which it is when both premises predicated on the grounds they are a form of child abuse is not only groundless but patently absurd.



Atheist through religion: When I left religion a few years ago I decided to go to many ex- (fill in the blank) religious forums. What I found stunned me! But why it should, I don’t know. I would say that probably 80% of those that left religion became atheists!


Sounds like many other excuses I have seen. I could have left my belief in God along with the child rearing as a Catholic, I chose to leave the Catholic Church and the Catholic Religion. Like you matrix, I didn't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. I kept the baby, I went a little further in desecting my faith as to what to keep what not to keep. This was NOT done according to my vices or lifestyle. Whether I agreed with it or not, I could not ignore the fact the more research, the more study, the more understanding I got the more sense it made to me and the more truth was revealed. So I kept my standard of truth, my stable datum or The Bible and threw out the religion. I think religion preys on people (no pun) but like most things taught they aren't always perfect and the followers are not what I judge the religion by. You seem to have decided to throw out the Christian GOD in favor of your own and have decided to believe in the God of your choosing or ,, I am not sure what it is exactly.

.


the stalwart Christian soldiers with their ever so loving tactics, LOL!


I don't think it has ever been said of me that I use "loving tactics" but then again that isn't what I am about when what I seem to be facing is the angst agression of Atheist's and the vitriolic intellectual snobbery of Darwininan Evolutionists who by and large just happen to be Atheist's, then their are the False Witness folks where you never really know what the hell they are much less what they are talking about.

Then we have Andre 18 who decided he couldn't handle the idea that he couldn't do his math homework if he believed in God so he became an Atheist and wha la! His math and science grades shot up automatically!

Oh yes it's true as andre18 own totally illogical statement will prove in the most logical fallacy to become an atheist I have heard yet.


Why am I an atheist? – Because I choose not to believe in the supernatural, my beliefs are based on common sense, logic and evidence…. Three things you simply can’t have if you believe in god.


Not only that but andre18 also has become quite the scientist and why?
Well he has a THEORY everyone. Yes everyone knows when you are a deist you can no longer understand a scientific theory! This makes teaching evolution a total waste ot time then doesn't it andre?


If I was a deist I’d have to believe creation is plausible, that simply can not be. If I was to believe in creation, I’d have to disregard the scientific theory.


Hey YOU said it andre, I didn't.
So much for all that logic and criticle thinking eh. Perhaps if you quit listening to all those discontextual bastardized versions of scripture suggesting the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth, you would understand how ignorant someone is by passing that along as a fact of the Bible when in fact it is YOU that is making the error. I won't bother explaining the passage as I know Atheists well enough, they get the true understanding in the hebrew, greek or aramaic, they gravitate towards the only interpretation that suits them best. You know the one,,called a "lie". That doesn't make them more intelligent, logical, or scientific, especially after being corrected on it numerous times by other Christian apologists. This is also one of the most common if not desperate attempts by Atheists to overthrow Christianity is by their efforts of history revision ie; the holocaust never happened Christ never existed etc,. Then they call evolution a fact. The lies just keep coming and are so guarded by this bunch they have to spread rumors, spying and espionage using career ruining extortion methods to get disenting opinion to fall in line and comply, they have a long history of using manufactured evidence to support their theories, intimidation tactics and rough tough guy talk as we see in Biohazards post to whammy. This was just discovered to be true in a senate and congressional hearings where Evolutionists were found guilty but they offer only silly excuses and more lies to cover more lies while they call Creationists the liars, the truth is creationists weren't the ones found guilty, Atheist / Darwininan Evoltionists were.

The fact they can admit on hand they have no real proof of natural selection or random mutation let alone proof for macro evolution and have admitted it but say the the theory stands regardless. I didn't say that, THEY DO in the 29 evidences for macro evolution website but more than that is the question Regardless of what!

Ill tell you what, the truth, that's what. Again, that doesn't make them more intelligent, more logical or more scientific.

No, what it makes them is simply this,,

it makes them a liar.

and that's all

- Con







[edit on 25-5-2008 by Conspiriology]


SR

posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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^
I would qoute you but it's abit long.

You've got to love the religious stance of you can't blame god for anything happening it's a cheap blow etc.

I mean why?? This is the same god that supposedly flooded nearly everyone out of existance went around killing first born children, set up tribes against tribe and played them against each other. Gave Abraham permission to kill all women except virgins, Gave Mohammed the green light to murder jews and infidels until the whole world is under the submission of god.

No matter what book the idea of god is in its a stone cold pyscho killer...you've seriously to question if people actually read the full books of their chosen religion because after reading many of the same type of threads time and time again on ATS it's apparent many 'believers' haven't.

They claim to have a high ground that doesn't exist when logical reasoning is deployed agaisnt them and use every logical fallacy in the book to stalemate the discussion it's a joke and frankly one the reasons i'd stopped replying in them.

It boils down to either you support a murdering pyscho of a god's actions which speaks volumes on your character or you don't it's that simple.

But yet every believer is rabidly defending the indefensible and blantent hypocracy of this god entity and not realising they're being played for fools in my opinion.



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by radardog
 



I am an agnostic atheist.

Where I accept a God could exist, yet don't believe in one.

Why?

It's the intellectually honest thing to do for me. If I had an experience that would inspire faith, then the situation may be different. Until then, I have no reason - personal, scientific, or otherwise - to believe.


Wow! Thank you for your humble post and insight!


Yes matrix, I agree, it is a rare sight indeed to find someone willing to to believe in God if they knew God.

Questions like

Is he saying God doesn't exist is met with the same circular logic however. You get answers like, madnessinmysoul saying, "I didn't say god doesn't exist, I said I don't believe "IN" God. The key clue is belief IN God. So if any make the committment suggesting they didn't say God doesn't exist, than one might suppose they think God does exist, which gets into the "it is possible he might" suggesting they just don't have the evidence and work damn hard to convince themselves that infact he doesn't even going as far as creating a video called the God that wasn't there. I can't wait till they come out with the sequel.

The Santa Clause that wasn't there If what isn't there threatens them that much or exposing mythical beings is there mission in life, we should expect more of the same. It is ONLY the Christian God they spend so much of there time researching and slinging mud at.

That's quite a hobby for someone to go to all that trouble, or you know, someone they are so busy activley disbelieving in.

Especially when you consider,

he doesn't even

exist.

- Con



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by SR
^
I would qoute you but it's abit long.

You've got to love the religious stance of you can't blame god for anything happening it's a cheap blow etc.



I would need to see the quotes. You suggesting God is a psychopathic killer and all the passages you refer to have the usual JUSTIFIABLE homicide left out.

You haven't read the Bible have you or are you just google searching more reasons to hate the god of the Bible?

If you care to understand the entire book, I can help but if you just want to spread lies about God or the Christian God then Ill ask you to please show me the proof you could be a better God.

Show me what cha got guy.

- Con


SR

posted on May, 25 2008 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Conspiriology

Originally posted by SR
^
I would qoute you but it's abit long.

You've got to love the religious stance of you can't blame god for anything happening it's a cheap blow etc.



I would need to see the quotes. You suggesting God is a psychopathic killer and all the passages you refer to have the usual JUSTIFIABLE homicide left out.

You haven't read the Bible have you or are you just google searching more reasons to hate the god of the Bible?

If you care to understand the entire book, I can help but if you just want to spread lies about God or the Christian God then Ill ask you to please show me the proof you could be a better God.

Show me what cha got guy.

- Con


Give me a day i'll pm you everysingle one i find as i don't want to spam this topic with two pages of versus from The bible.

But last time i checked the stories of Moses and Noah for a start where still in the same place in standard bibles.........

Again look at how yourself as a person is actually reacting your trying to defend the indefensible. God killed like a psycho and yet your defending it's actions.

This supposedly supereme creator who can wipe out people with a few gestures can't defend it's self against some 21 year old criticising it's self on the internet......

Purlease i don't mean to offend you but it's showing you as an insecure person who can't handle criticism of your beliefs?

It's your ego talking if you really were committed to the bible you wouldn't care what people thought of your beliefs if they were strong enough at the end of the day as the teachings in there from jesus tell you.

I mean would you be so caring towards a death row inmate and defend them to the bitter end???

Edit: I'd respect religious people more if they just admitted they are happy to be slaves and yes they do worship a mass murderer. At least then we'd get some honesty and could move forward as a race and address the issues instead of the constant circle-jerk logic.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by SR]



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 01:46 PM
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I do psychologically know where many atheists are coming from. In many cases I cannot blame them. I will stand by that.

I do not believe in the Christian God of; the trinity, everyone is going to heaven, that he loves everyone, yada yada. And no people!! Do not derail this thread re-hashing those doctrines that are very discussed on your threads and a couple of mine.

The reality of God is this: He does come off as a serial killer by observation. He does appear mean and cruel. The difference with me is the fact that I choose to view him in a different light. I have also seen other sides to him. But I will not create a Pollyanna view of him that just is not true! We do not need to defend God. He can handle his own situation and consequences!

Each of us has a choice; believe in him, or not. Those of you who are devout Christians would do well to acknowledge the atheists right to not believe in a God. They have as much of a right to not believe in a God as we have the right to believe! Those that are questioning can certainly approach you, or anyone they choose to, in order to get "our take" on the God thing.

Pushing your self-righteousness down these posters throats will not produce positive results. Learn by it!



posted on May, 25 2008 @ 02:20 PM
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I am an atheist on intellectual grounds, rational and humanist ground. Read Darwin, read Dawkins. It is about time people woke up from this somnambulist state that requires a great big daddy in the sky. It doesn't wash people. Human beings should in this day and age have outgrown such blinkered stupidity. It is religion and belief that kill people not lack of belief, and don't give the hackneyed, but Hitler was an atheist as was Stalin . No Hitler was raised a Catholic and expressed as many religious beliefs as non religious beliefs. The key thing with Hitler is he was insane from tertiary syphilis. As for Stalin, raised a Russian Orthodox. This conveniently ignores acts like the crusades and the extermination of the Cathars by the Catholic church. As for science being another belief. That is trite. Science requires the methodological investigation of evidence for properly constructed theories. These theories are discarded if there is no empirical evidence for them. Where is the evidence for a god/gods, the absinthe pixie. The answer is none. Yet the religious/faithful blindly cling to this outmoded system of thought control. Religious faith stifles human thought and creativity and yet the "faithful" whoever they may be hypocritically claim to provide the foundations of morality. What a joke, give me Kant any day. At least his philosophy wasn't motivated by a self centred belief in admission to a heaven or other paradise,for "good" works. Belief in extraterrestrial or whatever is all very fine and good but if we are not careful another yet religion will be created, further underscoring any reason why any intelligent extra terrestrial life would stay well away from planet Earth.

[edit on 25-5-2008 by thanatosdb]



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