Masons can't all be that bad. You are talking about a group of men whose club is symbolized by the compass and square. Meaning they have a high regard for geometry...how awful, not mathematics. I wil never understand why people are so afraid of Masons, all you have to do is look at what they have helped to bring us-FREEDOM.

Apparently the Masons who came to America and fought in the revolutionary war, believed in philisophies like democracy. And it shows in our constitution. Are Civil Liberties the kind of gift that you impart to an entire Country when all you really want is to rule the world? Because if that is all they wanted then they only needed to support the British Empire or the Roman Catholic Church; and not decide instead that no man deserves to be tyrannized. Now, I am not claiming that all of our founding fathers were Free Masons, but the ones who were, were quite passionate about living in a FREE society...and that by itself says a lot.

Perhaps if more of our leaders were Masons (Bush) we might not be in the mess we are in (Patriot Acts).

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Now as far as the philosophy stuff, there are still no secrets there. There might be hiddne meanings, but the answers are given. Just because someone gives a cryptic answers, it's still there.

I would refer again to PLato's "Timaeus", which alludes to initiation into the mysteries. The Eleusinian Mysteries were the "Freemasonry" of the ancient Greeks.

Originally posted by dalan.
Masons can't all be that bad. You are talking about a group of men whose club is symbolized by the compass and square. Meaning they have a high regard for geometry...how awful, not mathematics. I wil never understand why people are so afraid of Masons, all you have to do is look at what they have helped to bring us-FREEDOM.

Apparently the Masons who came to America and fought in the revolutionary war, believed in philisophies like democracy. And it shows in our constitution. Are Civil Liberties the kind of gift that you impart to an entire Country when all you really want is to rule the world? Because if that is all they wanted then they only needed to support the British Empire or the Roman Catholic Church; and not decide instead that no man deserves to be tyrannized. Now, I am not claiming that all of our founding fathers were Free Masons, but the ones who were, were quite passionate about living in a FREE society...and that by itself says a lot.

Perhaps if more of our leaders were Masons (Bush) we might not be in the mess we are in (Patriot Acts).

Devil's advocate would say the revolutionary war wasn't exactly freedom, but more like a power hungry group of people that didn't want to be ruled anymore. How many of these great masons were involved in the massacring of native americans? I'm not blaming masons, just trying to show another side to the same argument. Maybe in fact they did want to rule the world eventually. How can you rule the world if England is oppressing you from doing that? Again, I'm not saying all of this is true, but I do think it is a good thing to think about. The whole america thing and fighting for freedom might partially be some propaganda we've been fed for hundreds of years. Not saying it is, but go back as far as you can in American history and you see shady things from day one. Oh well, I love living in America, just wish that the average american was a little smarter and tougher. Bunch of wusses and politically correct wimps we got nowadays. We even let our leaders do unthinkable things! I'm just as much to blame as every other American out there. Oh yeah, back to Masons, yeah they aren't that bad. I mean, who can be bad if they like math right?


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
Hey, if they wanted to publish ALL the secrets to the mason world, but in some type of sophisticated code, then I would actually be fine with that

What makes you think they haven't?

You make it sound like its something out of a movie...
Freemasons is a religion created by a fraternity a long time ago, and if they want to keep their views and believes and people hidden be it!

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Now as far as the philosophy stuff, there are still no secrets there. There might be hiddne meanings, but the answers are given. Just because someone gives a cryptic answers, it's still there.

I would refer again to PLato's "Timaeus", which alludes to initiation into the mysteries. The Eleusinian Mysteries were the "Freemasonry" of the ancient Greeks.

Weren't the Eleusinian Mysteries based on cult stuff, with the ideas of different gods and goddesses? So, are you saying that Freemasonry is similarly based upon cult ideas? Cults always have secrets. If you want to classify the Masons as a cult with polytheist principles, then fine, but that's not what has been put out by them. Anything I've ever read or heard by the freemasons seems to allude that they are a Christian organization, or that being the main belief. I personally do not believe that back then, the many gods and goddesses was a good thing. Everything they did was based on power and selfishness. In fact part of the Eleusinian mysteries were that they were promised divine powers in the afterlife. See, it's all about this power and control and is all selfish. Even doing good deeds is selfish based if you are doing them to hope to get to heaven one day. I haven't seen one thing yet that shows the masons are out there to help humanity. I've seen them do actions that appear to help humanity, but it always seems to come back to by doing good work it will benefit them somehow. Good deeds should be done regardless of the outcome. Good deeds should have nothing attached to them. So, you showed your point of the Eleusinian mysteries, but that point doesn't really show anything except that a cult years ago practiced secrecy too. At least, that's what I'm getting from this. Please add because there's no way this is what you meant, but then again if you did, no problem, end of discussion I would think.


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough

Originally posted by dalan.
Masons can't all be that bad. You are talking about a group of men whose club is symbolized by the compass and square. Meaning they have a high regard for geometry...how awful, not mathematics. I wil never understand why people are so afraid of Masons, all you have to do is look at what they have helped to bring us-FREEDOM.

Apparently the Masons who came to America and fought in the revolutionary war, believed in philisophies like democracy. And it shows in our constitution. Are Civil Liberties the kind of gift that you impart to an entire Country when all you really want is to rule the world? Because if that is all they wanted then they only needed to support the British Empire or the Roman Catholic Church; and not decide instead that no man deserves to be tyrannized. Now, I am not claiming that all of our founding fathers were Free Masons, but the ones who were, were quite passionate about living in a FREE society...and that by itself says a lot.

Perhaps if more of our leaders were Masons (Bush) we might not be in the mess we are in (Patriot Acts).

Devil's advocate would say the revolutionary war wasn't exactly freedom, but more like a power hungry group of people that didn't want to be ruled anymore. How many of these great masons were involved in the massacring of native americans? I'm not blaming masons, just trying to show another side to the same argument. Maybe in fact they did want to rule the world eventually. How can you rule the world if England is oppressing you from doing that? Again, I'm not saying all of this is true, but I do think it is a good thing to think about. The whole america thing and fighting for freedom might partially be some propaganda we've been fed for hundreds of years. Not saying it is, but go back as far as you can in American history and you see shady things from day one. Oh well, I love living in America, just wish that the average american was a little smarter and tougher. Bunch of wusses and politically correct wimps we got nowadays. We even let our leaders do unthinkable things! I'm just as much to blame as every other American out there. Oh yeah, back to Masons, yeah they aren't that bad. I mean, who can be bad if they like math right?

How many non-masonic Christians were involved in the massacering of Native Americans?

How were the Masons to know that by helping in the birth of America, the Country would become a super-power? Or even bigger than Great Britian? I don't think they wanted power, I think they wanted freedom (implying yes, they didn't want to be told what to do, but they still respect the rights of others). The shady things that happen in America usually come from greed, take JP Morgan and Rockefeller for instance.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
Hey, if they wanted to publish ALL the secrets to the mason world, but in some type of sophisticated code, then I would actually be fine with that

What makes you think they haven't?

good point, can't argue with that. if they truly are into helping humanity, then they would show it to the world, not just keep it with their "own kind". I know they do give alot ot charities and help, but then again so do the Hell's Angels. They give more money than you would ever know. Does it make the Hell's Angels a good fraternity? You be the judge.

JPT

Originally posted by Ryan Lloyd
You make it sound like its something out of a movie...
Freemasons is a religion created by a fraternity a long time ago, and if they want to keep their views and believes and people hidden be it!

I think you are getting them confused with mormons. Though I think they are both based on lots of freemason principles and traditions. Good post though. Yet, another thing to think about.

JPT

Originally posted by dalan.


How many non-masonic Christians were involved in the massacering of Native Americans?

How were the Masons to know that by helping in the birth of America, the Country would become a super-power? Or even bigger than Great Britian? I don't think they wanted power, I think they wanted freedom (implying yes, they didn't want to be told what to do, but they still respect the rights of others). The shady things that happen in America usually come from greed, take JP Morgan and Rockefeller for instance.

Does it matter how many non-masonic Christians were involved in anything? The point of this thread is about masons right? not skirting the issue, but that's just opening another can of worms.

The masons didn't know the US would become a superpower. Then again, if you want to be rich, you work hard and do your best. You never know if you are going to ever get rich, but you never give up hope. Some people get rich, others don't. You just take that chance. If the masons were truly interested in power, this was their only way out. They could not protest from inside England because they would get shutdown before they even got started. If they truly wanted to start a country to take over the world, that was their best option and they did it. So, maybe they really did want to take over the world eventually, you gotta start somewhere. Do I believe this, not really, but I also don't think certain parts of freemasonry are innocent like they claim to be, but until I have some type of evidence or proof, then freemasonry is what it is-a secret society where anything is possible inside the secretive walls.

JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
if they truly are into helping humanity, then they would show it to the world, not just keep it with their "own kind".

Yeah, you don't get it. It's not about ego. It's not about fame & recognition. It's about doing good works because good works need to be done. If someone notices, fine. If they don't, also fine. But at the end of the day I can lead a happier life knowing I made a difference, whether someone else pats me on the back or not.

Originally posted by justpassingthrough

Does it matter how many non-masonic Christians were involved in anything? The point of this thread is about masons right? not skirting the issue, but that's just opening another can of worms.

The masons didn't know the US would become a superpower. Then again, if you want to be rich, you work hard and do your best. You never know if you are going to ever get rich, but you never give up hope. Some people get rich, others don't. You just take that chance. If the masons were truly interested in power, this was their only way out. They could not protest from inside England because they would get shutdown before they even got started. If they truly wanted to start a country to take over the world, that was their best option and they did it. So, maybe they really did want to take over the world eventually, you gotta start somewhere. Do I believe this, not really, but I also don't think certain parts of freemasonry are innocent like they claim to be, but until I have some type of evidence or proof, then freemasonry is what it is-a secret society where anything is possible inside the secretive walls.

JPT

How many "evil" men can you think of who are or have been Masons?

Was Hitler a Mason?
Is anyone in the Bush family Masons?
Was Jp Morgan a Mason?
Are any of the Rockefellers Masons?
Name one man who has hurt society in some way and was a Mason. Then think of all of the men who are Masons that have benefitted society. The ladder is a much longer list.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
if they truly are into helping humanity, then they would show it to the world, not just keep it with their "own kind".

Yeah, you don't get it. It's not about ego. It's not about fame & recognition. It's about doing good works because good works need to be done. If someone notices, fine. If they don't, also fine. But at the end of the day I can lead a happier life knowing I made a difference, whether someone else pats me on the back or not.

I understand this and as I posted on another thread or maybe earlier in this one, I haven't met a bad mormon or mason. All the ones I have ever come across work hard. They take care of their families and they are good people. It's the entity, not the people. Just like the Catholic Church. Many Catholics are great people, hard working, pray all the time, take care of their families, but the Vatican seems like a very bad entity and has been for a long time. Greedy, power hungry, etc... Lots of secrets the Vatican keeps also. I have no doubt that YOU are a a good guy who is part of a fraternity that you feel good about. So many people are like this in all ways. Muslims are like this and there are some great muslims. Catholics are like this and there are some great Catholics. Need I go on? My feeling is that somewhere in the top, there is something sinister going on because, correct me if I'm wrong please, even in the higher ups in Masonry, the lower Masons are kept in the dark about some secrets as well, correct? I'll say it again, just so you know it's one of my feelings and maybe makes me biased...I've never seen anything good come from secret keeping. In fact, it's always been the opposite.

JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
My feeling is that somewhere in the top, there is something sinister going on because, correct me if I'm wrong please, even in the higher ups in Masonry, the lower Masons are kept in the dark about some secrets as well, correct?

No. The answers are all there. That part's actually quite easy. What most people, including myself, often struggle with is coming up with the right questions.

Originally posted by dalan.

Originally posted by justpassingthrough

Does it matter how many non-masonic Christians were involved in anything? The point of this thread is about masons right? not skirting the issue, but that's just opening another can of worms.

The masons didn't know the US would become a superpower. Then again, if you want to be rich, you work hard and do your best. You never know if you are going to ever get rich, but you never give up hope. Some people get rich, others don't. You just take that chance. If the masons were truly interested in power, this was their only way out. They could not protest from inside England because they would get shutdown before they even got started. If they truly wanted to start a country to take over the world, that was their best option and they did it. So, maybe they really did want to take over the world eventually, you gotta start somewhere. Do I believe this, not really, but I also don't think certain parts of freemasonry are innocent like they claim to be, but until I have some type of evidence or proof, then freemasonry is what it is-a secret society where anything is possible inside the secretive walls.

JPT

How many "evil" men can you think of who are or have been Masons?

Was Hitler a Mason?
Is anyone in the Bush family Masons?
Was Jp Morgan a Mason?
Are any of the Rockefellers Masons?
Name one man who has hurt society in some way and was a Mason. Then think of all of the men who are Masons that have benefitted society. The ladder is a much longer list.

Well, I guess it depends on where you can get info, but you said name one man who has hurt society. Aliester Crowley There's a site that says he was a mason. Even if this is true, your point is well taken. One man does not make the entity anyways. Bush hasn't done all that much evil in all reality, it's his cabinet that did it. Cheney, Rumsfield, etc... I bet there is a llist of good masons and probably a smaller list of bad masons. I don't personally think the freemasons are trying to take over the world, I just think they are hiding something and not just being protective of the things they hold sacred. I believe there is something else being hidden and something that is not right or good. I have no proof, so I can't say what it is, but since they've chosen to be secretive, I'm not going to rally against any rumors against the masons, even if they seem outrageous. I do think the average mason is a good person. The average Catholic is probably a good person, but that doesn't matter if the ones making the big decisions are doing bad or questionable things.

JPT

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
My feeling is that somewhere in the top, there is something sinister going on because, correct me if I'm wrong please, even in the higher ups in Masonry, the lower Masons are kept in the dark about some secrets as well, correct?

No. The answers are all there. That part's actually quite easy. What most people, including myself, often struggle with is coming up with the right questions.

So you know exactly what it takes to make it to the highest degree or masonry and you know the ceremony for it, etc...?


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthroughSo you know exactly what it takes to make it to the highest degree or masonry and you know the ceremony for it, etc...?

Yes, actually. I do, as do most if not all of the Masons posting here. I don't have the ceremony memorized, of course, but I'm familiar enough with it. (Just to hedge on exactly what you mean when you say "know the ceremony".)

[edit on 5/22/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Originally posted by justpassingthroughSo you know exactly what it takes to make it to the highest degree or masonry and you know the ceremony for it, etc...?

Yes, actually. I do, as do most if not all of the Masons posting here. I don't have the ceremony memorized, of course, but I'm familiar enough with it. (Just to hedge on exactly what you mean when you say "know the ceremony".)

[edit on 5/22/2008 by JoshNorton]

Okay, good enough. Yes, I was wrong. Just to double check, as you go through each degree, is there a type of ceremony or initiation? Are they all different or the same basic things go on? When you reply, you can treat me totally like a 1st grader. it's easiest that way so I don't get anything confused. Thank you for your nice replies. I don't want to come off like a jerk and I respect each person and each person has their right to make their own choice in their life decisions.


JPT

Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Weren't the Eleusinian Mysteries based on cult stuff, with the ideas of different gods and goddesses? So, are you saying that Freemasonry is similarly based upon cult ideas?

I dunno, depnds on what you mean by "cult stuff".

The Mysteries presented a spiritual view of philosophy. This is why they attracted the philosophers.

The non-initiates, who were the regular folks in Greece, believed in the literal existence of various gods and goddesses. The mysteries taught that the gods were mythological allegories, and the myths were dramatized in the ceremonies for the purpose of pointing out their inner meanings.

Some initiates, like Socrates, were persecuted for being a little too open about the theology involved. Socrates himself was executed for "perpetuating atheism" because he publicly stated that the gods were allegorical figures.

Anything I've ever read or heard by the freemasons seems to allude that they are a Christian organization, or that being the main belief.

Freemasonry does not claim to be a Christian organization. Freemasonry is entirely non-sectarian.

Even doing good deeds is selfish based if you are doing them to hope to get to heaven one day.

Agreed. That was not a doctrine of the Mysteries. Freemasonry has a Kantian ethic, i.e., that one should do good for it's own sake, not because one expects rewards for it.

I haven't seen one thing yet that shows the masons are out there to help humanity.

Again, Freemasonry continues the traditions of the Mysteries. That is, it is focused on the individual, and not necessarily "society" as a whole. The only way to improve humanity, we contend, is to improve the individuals that compose humanity. This is our profession.

I've seen them do actions that appear to help humanity, but it always seems to come back to by doing good work it will benefit them somehow.

How does it seem that good works benefit the Freemason? I mean, other than the obvious (obviously, anyone trying to goo will receive certain benefits, such as self-improvement, strengthening of personal character, etc.).

So, you showed your point of the Eleusinian mysteries, but that point doesn't really show anything except that a cult years ago practiced secrecy too. At least, that's what I'm getting from this. Please add because there's no way this is what you meant, but then again if you did, no problem, end of discussion I would think.

Well, that "cult years ago" produced the greatest and most eloquent philosophers, poets, and artists that have ever walked the face of the earth. I'd say the tide was in their favor.