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Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?

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posted on May, 22 2008 @ 05:32 AM
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I too would enjoy seeing a debate on this or any other 'anti-Masonic' topic. I believe MasonicLight has first dibs on the debate but I feel Axeman would put up an equally intelligent arguement.




posted on May, 22 2008 @ 07:21 AM
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The original post is a never ending debate, just like ATS is. It's an ignorant post, in my opinion, and that seems to be the common thing on ATS these days, instead of the rare thing it should be. How can one prove ANY of the claims against the Masons or the conspiracies? Just because there's no proof doesn't mean it's not true, but to ask for proof of a secret society's evil doings is so dumb. It can't be had. If you have an ex mason that comes forward and makes all these outrageous claims, then the Masons will say, "oh he's just bitter because he was kicked out" or whatever the excuse would be and they would try and discredit the ex Mason. So, to current Masons, they would dismiss any ex-Mason's claims of conspiracy or wrong doing. It's just like the Mormon thing as well. Many ex-Mormons claim some pretty outlandish things. Current Mormons dismiss these claims and say the ex is just mad at the church or whatever and is spreading falsehoods. So, who are you to believe, the ex-mormons, ex-masons, or the current masons or mormons? There will never be any type of proof until the end of the world, or closer to it. Just like there is no REAL proof for aliens, many people would swear on their life that they saw an alien or were abducted. There is no REAL proof for a 9/11 conspiracy. There is no REAL proof of the Illuminati, or NWO conspiracies, etc... I could go on all day, but hopefully you see my point. I listen carefully to ALL arguments and form my opinion and usually just try and keep a little quiet because people or groups tend to hang themselves if you give them enough rope.

Here's a story I read and heard about before on separate occasions, whether it's true or not, it's up to you to decide, but it's a great example of the possibilities and how secret societies will remain untouchable for a while longer. This is kind of the story, but some things are a little different just to protect the, uh innocent. Supposedly, as the story goes, when you get to a certain level of masonry (or however you say it), you have this final test to see if you make it to the next degree or whatever it's called. As you are with whatever higher up, or group of higher ups you are with, the ask you to do this final test. On this table or on the ground or wherever, they place a crucifix. They ask you to denounce that Jesus is the son of God and tell you to either say spit, or urinate on the crucifix and denounce Jesus. If you do, you make it to the next degree, if you don't you make it to the next degree. Now they know ever more about what you are willing to do to be a mason. So, apparently, the one who urinated or spit and denounced, is now placed (just in a spiritual order, not physically) with a different group or masons. The one who decided against denouncing Jesus and urinating or spitting, is congratulated and told they did the right thing and how the masons are of this person. This person is now placed with different masons as well. No one is the wiser, in or out of the mason fraternity.


So, if you want proof, you're never going to get it. ATS is about conspiracies and is a place to talk about them when you DON'T have any proof is my take on it. If you had solid proof of 9/11 inside jobs, you would take it to the biggest media you can find, or take it to an international media you could trust. So, when you can't give 100% proof, you come to ATS. This isn't a bad thing. People should be able to hear all takes and all opinions, no matter how unsubstantiated they are, without someone saying they are a kook! Also, if someone comes on and says "Masons worship Lucifer" and you come on and say "No we don't", who is right? You expect us to trust YOUR word? Both of you are strangers and even if you weren't a stranger, people have lied about a lot less important things. If you did worship lucifer, do you expect us to believe you are going to come out and admit it anyways?

JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough

Supposedly, as the story goes, when you get to a certain level of masonry (or however you say it), you have this final test to see if you make it to the next degree or whatever it's called. As you are with whatever higher up, or group of higher ups you are with, the ask you to do this final test. On this table or on the ground or wherever, they place a crucifix. They ask you to denounce that Jesus is the son of God and tell you to either say spit, or urinate on the crucifix and denounce Jesus. If you do, you make it to the next degree, if you don't you make it to the next degree. Now they know ever more about what you are willing to do to be a mason.


But even the truth or falsity of that rumor can be easily verified. That particular rumor comes from the Knight Templar hoax. One of the (false) accusations against the Templars was that they had to spit upon the cross during their initiation.

In Masonry, the idea would be absurd for the following reason: Masonry does not pretend to be a Christian organization. Some of our members, for example, are Hindus. What would be the point of asking a Hindu to deny the deity of Jesus, when he already does so just by being a Hindu? And asking a Hindu to spit on a cross would be no different than asking a Methodist to spit on a statue of Shiva: it would be meaningless because Hindus don't believe in Jesus and Methodists don't believe in Shiva.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:17 AM
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sorry for the long quote. The point of the above would not be to make someone go against their religion. The point of that is that it would be against Christianity. Though I see your thoughts on your argument, you missed the point. Just like lucifer, the devil, whatever, if it actually exists and that is the truth, that God is real, that Jesus Christ was his son and that satan is a fallen angel, then satan could care less if you denounce any religion, EXCEPT, Christianity. Satan would only care that you denounce Christianity. And of course, you can claim that that story is from the knights templar hoax, but can you prove, first that the knights templar hoax is a hoax and then can you show me that that's the story I'm talking about? It's all good. The problem with everything in life is that it's pretty impossible to prove almost anything. One cannot prove God. One has a hard time proving what we are seeing in front of our own faces is real. This is why this whole argument and series of posts is completely silly. I'm all for evidence and proof, but with these type of secret societies, you cannot prove anything. To me, anything in secret means you are hiding something. If something is the truth and beautiful, there's no sense in hiding it. If you are a secret society and use the excuse it had to be secret like 1000 years ago, but still secret, then you deserve untrue rumors to be told about you. I'm not even sold that these rumors are untrue, I'm just saying it's their own fault. I have no use for secrets. Overall, I've never seen anything good from secret societies or from people or entities which keep too many secrets.


JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:32 AM
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Whether or not something can be proved absolutely or not is irrelevant.

If there is a ton of evidence supporting the fact that something is a hoax, but no evidence whatsoever supporting the fact that it's real, other than the opinion of a few guys who hate the organization in question, which is more likely to be correct?



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough
If something is the truth and beautiful, there's no sense in hiding it.


We don't hide anything. We OFFER something, to those who have the wherewithall to SEEK.

You don't hide easter eggs to keep them from the kids; you hide them so that the kids have fun FINDING them.

It's not my job to spoon-feed anyone enlightenment, it's impossible anyway. If a man wishes to pursue and study Masonry, all he need to is ASK.

"Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you."

The only people who seem to complain about "hidden" things are those who are too lazy to search for them.

P.S. I agree about Fitz's analogy... excellent.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:44 AM
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You don't hide easter eggs to keep them from the kids; you hide them so that the kids have fun FINDING them.




P.S. I agree about Fitz's analogy... excellent.


This one is equally brilliant!


I compliment you both on analogies I will never forget!



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 10:55 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
If something is the truth and beautiful, there's no sense in hiding it.


We don't hide anything. We OFFER something, to those who have the wherewithall to SEEK.

You don't hide easter eggs to keep them from the kids; you hide them so that the kids have fun FINDING them.

It's not my job to spoon-feed anyone enlightenment, it's impossible anyway. If a man wishes to pursue and study Masonry, all he need to is ASK.

"Ask, and ye shall receive. Seek, and ye shall find. Knock, and the door shall be opened unto you."

The only people who seem to complain about "hidden" things are those who are too lazy to search for them.

P.S. I agree about Fitz's analogy... excellent.


LOL, this was a funny post. So, if I ask what you do in your ceremonies, or if I can come and watch, then what would your answer be? Can I watch any traditional rituals you have? Can I come in and not have to join anything and see what goes on behind closed doors? None of this is as simple as you make it sound. It's not ask and you shall receive. It's JOIN and you shall receive, HUGE difference. Maybe I'm wrong though. Can I attend anything I want at a mason lodge, even if I'm not a member and don't want to become one? I'm allowed to go to a Catholic church if I want to and watch the ceremonies. I'm allowed to watch people being baptized in the Methodist Church. So, can I come and watched people being inducted or earning their higher degrees?

JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Saurus
Whether or not something can be proved absolutely or not is irrelevant.

If there is a ton of evidence supporting the fact that something is a hoax, but no evidence whatsoever supporting the fact that it's real, other than the opinion of a few guys who hate the organization in question, which is more likely to be correct?



and yes, this is a great point. If there's lots of evidence pointing to one thing but a few people just yelling something else with NO evidence, I tend to believe what evidence is shown, compared to the zero evidence. Good post!

JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough

LOL, this was a funny post. So, if I ask what you do in your ceremonies, or if I can come and watch, then what would your answer be? Can I watch any traditional rituals you have? Can I come in and not have to join anything and see what goes on behind closed doors? None of this is as simple as you make it sound. It's not ask and you shall receive. It's JOIN and you shall receive, HUGE difference. Maybe I'm wrong though. Can I attend anything I want at a mason lodge, even if I'm not a member and don't want to become one? I'm allowed to go to a Catholic church if I want to and watch the ceremonies. I'm allowed to watch people being baptized in the Methodist Church. So, can I come and watched people being inducted or earning their higher degrees?

JPT


The answer to every one of your questions is "No!"

If we let anyone who asked see our ceremonies, they would become out in the open. Everyone who was interested in Freemasonry (before they join) would obviously read up on it.

Then, the impact of each ceremony would be lost, since the contents would already be known. The element of 'not knowing what happens next' plays a large part in the ceremonies, and contributes heavily to the overall experience and enjoyment.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by justpassingthrough

LOL, this was a funny post. So, if I ask what you do in your ceremonies, or if I can come and watch, then what would your answer be? Can I watch any traditional rituals you have? Can I come in and not have to join anything and see what goes on behind closed doors? None of this is as simple as you make it sound. It's not ask and you shall receive. It's JOIN and you shall receive, HUGE difference. Maybe I'm wrong though. Can I attend anything I want at a mason lodge, even if I'm not a member and don't want to become one? I'm allowed to go to a Catholic church if I want to and watch the ceremonies. I'm allowed to watch people being baptized in the Methodist Church. So, can I come and watched people being inducted or earning their higher degrees?

JPT


The answer to every one of your questions is "No!"

If we let anyone who asked see our ceremonies, they would become out in the open. Everyone who was interested in Freemasonry (before they join) would obviously read up on it.

Then, the impact of each ceremony would be lost, since the contents would already be known. The element of 'not knowing what happens next' plays a large part in the ceremonies, and contributes heavily to the overall experience and enjoyment.


Well, the impact of enjoyment for you would be lost. For me, I am just curious and want to know. So, is it more important for you to save your enjoyment or answer the questions for those who seek? See, it is not the simple seek and ye shall find. If I begin to seek, then I will be limited by not joining. That, is a wall. So, the only answer is to seek and JOIN, then some answers will be told, but even then there will still be many, many secrets. If you are keeping secrets merely for impact and enjoyment, sounds rather selfish to me. Why is the Holy Bible an open book with no secrets? Where are the secrets the Dalai Lama is hiding? Aside from maybe selfish reasons, I haven't yet seen any good reasons yet as to why the masons need to be so secret. Sounds to me like there are things being hidden. Also, less that what 15 years ago I think, the mormons had an oath they had to take that if they revealed any secrets in their ceremony, they could be slit ear to ear (having their throat cut). I'm sure you can't answer the question, but do you guys have any similar oath that if secrets are revealed, then you could be killed because of it? This too seems odd. Doesn't sound like a good or holy or positive thing to me. Sounds like the mob. The Mob had lots of secrets as well. I'm just looking for something that shows good reason for secrets. Enjoyment and impact just don't hold water. They are selfish in nature and being selfish isn't a positive thing.


JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by justpassingthrough
 



Originally posted by justpassingthrough
LOL, this was a funny post.


I'm glad you found humor in it. Laughter is powerful.



So, if I ask what you do in your ceremonies, or if I can come and watch, then what would your answer be?


My answer would be general, but I would answer. There are a few things that I am obligated not to reveal, and there are some things that I choose not to reveal because it is something that is personal and sacred to me. I had to work hard for that knowledge, and I'm not going to hand it out freely to some dude who could care less what it means, or what it means to me. Ask specific questions, and I will answer as openly and honestly as I can. If there is something that is private I would say so and leave it at that. Certainly I'm not going to make stuff up or lie.


Can I watch any traditional rituals you have?


Sure! There is the cornerstone laying ceremony, that's public, obviously. Installation of officers is open to the public everywhere so far as I know. It's an impressive, if very long, ceremony and it gives a good idea of the way a typical meeting runs. All you'd have to do is find out from the local lodge when they install their officers, and then show up! You'd probably even score dinner and a piece of cake... maybe even some coffee.


There is also a Masonic Funeral service that you could see if you happened to be at a Mason's funeral. It's a beautiful ceremony, though I have never actually seen it performed. I've read it though and it is elegant.


Can I come in and not have to join anything and see what goes on behind closed doors?


No more than you could sit in on a private business meeting of any organization without being an employee/member of that organization. Go down to Chase bank and ask to sit in on their board meetings, see what they say.



None of this is as simple as you make it sound.


No one said it was simple. Freemasonry is one of the furthest things from simple that I can think of.


It's not ask and you shall receive. It's JOIN and you shall receive, HUGE difference.


But, you have to ASK to JOIN. If your intentions are benevolent, you believe in God (however you believe in God), and you're not a felon, there's not much else to it. Seriously.


Maybe I'm wrong though.


Only partially.



Can I attend anything I want at a mason lodge, even if I'm not a member and don't want to become one?


No, you can't. I mean you could attend, eat, visit and whatnot, but when the meeting is coming to order, only members are allowed and you would either be asked to wait outside (in the dining area, not like outside) and have some food/coffee until business was conducted (assuming you wanted to stick around and visit), or leave. Your choice I would imagine.


I'm allowed to go to a Catholic church if I want to and watch the ceremonies. I'm allowed to watch people being baptized in the Methodist Church.


You're talking apples and oranges. Freemasonry is a FRATERNITY, not a CHURCH.


So, can I come and watched people being inducted or earning their higher degrees?


Can you go to the Phi Beta Kappa House and watch their initiations? Kappa Sigma? Chi Omega?

No, you can't because they are private organizations for members only. Nothing personal, just the way it is. Same with Masonry. You have to EARN the title of Master Mason, and along with it its various rights and priveledges.

Everyone wants something for nothing these days.


[edit on 5/22/08 by The Axeman]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough
Why is the Holy Bible an open book with no secrets?


LOL

Talk about funny!


Allegory (n): look it up.

Have you read The Apocalypse of St. John, by chance?


[edit on 5/22/08 by The Axeman]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
Why is the Holy Bible an open book with no secrets?


LOL

Talk about funny!


Allegory (n): look it up.

Have you read The Apocalypse of St. John, by chance?


[edit on 5/22/08 by The Axeman]



It's still all right there. Whether one has the capacity to read between the lines is something else, but either way it's all right there. If by the Apocalypse of St. John, you also are referring to Revelation, then yes. Just like an onion. Layer upon layer, upon layer.

JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough
If by the Apocalypse of St. John, you also are referring to Revelation, then yes. Just like an onion. Layer upon layer, upon layer.


You just made my point for me, thank you.


Why all the layers? Was St. John hiding something? If it's Good and True it should be obvious for all to see and understand, right?

P.S. It is my opinion that without the proper background in occult references and symbolism, Revelation is nigh impossible to make heads or tails of.

It was a book written by an Initiate, for Initiates. By "Initiates" I don't mean Masons -- it's much, much bigger and broader than that.

Do some reading on the Essenes and get back to me.


[edit on 5/22/08 by The Axeman]



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by The Axeman
 


I'll mess up quoting your quotes and mine so I'm just going to reply. You did say the church comparisons were apples oranges. I could argue this, but I your point is taken. I also understand about comparing the masons to a fraternity, as far as watching their secret things, though to compare the masons to a college fraternity is a little silly unless you feel they are comparable. I do completely understand personal things that you hold sacred. I also understand not sharing things that you've had to work for many years to learn, just to someone who seems like they could care less. Yes, there is point to discerning who's worthy of info and who's not, but for someone asking me, I do answer. You said you would answer as much as you could, but here's the difference. Of all the things I have learned in my life, about religion, philosophy, career, art, etc..., if a young person came to me and asked me to show them and help them in life, I would have no problems sharing everything I know, as long as their heart is always in the right place. For you or any other mason, no matter how hard one seeks or yearns to learn, there will always be the mason barrier in which you could not share certain things until that person becomes a mason. Is this correct? You see, I've made many friends of many different cultures and religions. Some Islamic friends seem to want to hold onto secrets. I've only known a few masons, but they seem to hold onto their secrets. Mormons the same way. My Bhuddist and Christian friends never have anything to hide. I can ask them anything and they will answer whatever they know. They may not always have an answer, but it's not because they are hiding anything. It's only because of ignorance. We all suffer from ignorance at some point because NONE of us have all the answers. Why do philosophers write books to try and answer life's questions? They are sharing what they know with all. I guess a complain is that the masons are a good organization that wants to move humanity forward. I have a problem with this because if they wanted to be a positive influence on humanity, I feel they would be more of an open book. I see lots of parallels in mormonism and the masons and so these two entities always stick out because they both claim to be great and helpful, yet they are withholding info only to their own people. I don't remember Bhudda or Jesus withholding info from people who didn't believe in their ways? Know what I'm saying. I have nothing personal against mason or mormons. I have a few mormon friends who are great people. They do work hard and they care for their family and they mormon friends, but that's where it ends. You are not a lover of humanity and life if you are biased towards only your own kind. It's like a lite form of racism. Anyhow, I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Thank you for your thoughtful replies.


JPT

JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by justpassingthrough
 


Certainly, and I appreciate your candor as well. You make some good points and asked some good questions and I will reply to them I just can't right now due to time. I want to give you answers, not canned responses.

Thanks for being respectful. I'll get back to this within 24 hours.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by justpassingthrough
If by the Apocalypse of St. John, you also are referring to Revelation, then yes. Just like an onion. Layer upon layer, upon layer.


You just made my point for me, thank you.


Why all the layers? Was St. John hiding something? If it's Good and True it should be obvious for all to see and understand, right?

P.S. It is my opinion that without the proper background in occult references and symbolism, Revelation is nigh impossible to make heads or tails of.


Well, one of your points is like the onion layer, but that still doesn't make up for the secrecy. As you said, I can ask away and there will still be a limit to your answers. Even if you felt that I was the most honest person in the world and you completely trusted me an my intentions, as long as I'm not a mason, there are certain things you will never share. This is the secrecy that always worries me with organizations. Again, I'll say my point about the Bible. It's all right there. There's nothing hidden out of my reach, physically at least. Masons physically will not let me see or hear certain things no matter how educated, spiritual or hard working I am as long as I'm not a Mason. it's cool, it's a private group, a secret society, but with secrets come rumors. If the masons want to do away with the rumors, then they could open up everything to all. No more secrets, no more rumors, or at least the extent of the rumors would be so much less, they would never get noticed and since the masons would be open to the world to se, rumors would lst 5 seconds, not 5 centuries.

JPT

PS- I will look into the other stuff as I always do. I will read and learn about anything I can get my hands on. I'm skeptical of history books, but I just take in all the info I can and make a decision from there. Look at the US history books from the 1940s compared the even now. They are night and day different. They are against the native americans back then and now they are kind of being more fair about history, but it's still very biased towards the US history. History books are to be taken with a grain of salt in my opinion, especially those dealing with over 2000+ years.



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
reply to post by justpassingthrough
 


Certainly, and I appreciate your candor as well. You make some good points and asked some good questions and I will reply to them I just can't right now due to time. I want to give you answers, not canned responses.

Thanks for being respectful. I'll get back to this within 24 hours.


Take your time. No hurry. Sometimes I have no time for days it seems. As long as there is always respect, I'm open to a good debate and also open to being wrong. Hey, in all reality, you could be totally wrong, or I could be totally wrong, or the truth could be right in the middle. I find, just like the old song "what a difference a day makes", each day is new. What you have known your whole life could change in a heartbeat, not only because of knowledge, but because of physical ailments or anything really. So, I'm totally open to anything, but obviously have my beliefs and initial feelings. Again thank you for the respectful replies and the calm responses as well. People can get worked up about things they are passionate about, I tend to do this, but try to be unbiased and calm in my reactions if at all possible.


JPT



posted on May, 22 2008 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by justpassingthrough
I also understand about comparing the masons to a fraternity, as far as watching their secret things, though to compare the masons to a college fraternity is a little silly unless you feel they are comparable.


Just for the record, we aren't comparing ourselves to a fraternity. Freemasonry *is* a fraternity, it's what we are. Freemasonry is, in fact, the world's oldest fraternity, and all modern fraternal organizations, college and otherwise, have borrowed heavily from Freemasonry.


if a young person came to me and asked me to show them and help them in life, I would have no problems sharing everything I know, as long as their heart is always in the right place. For you or any other mason, no matter how hard one seeks or yearns to learn, there will always be the mason barrier in which you could not share certain things until that person becomes a mason. Is this correct?


Consider the words of Socrates to Timaeus in the dialogue of Plato. Here, the entire conversation is based around the meaning of virtue, and Socrates spends a large amount of time and energy discoursing on virtue so that Timaeus may be benefitted. But Socrates goes on to to tell Timaeus that should he desire to learn the innermost meanings of virtue, he should accompany him to the mysteries and be initiated.





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