Why can no one prove a Masonic conspiracy?, page 8
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reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:06 PM by justpassingthrough
reply to post by Masonic Light


Thank you for your replies. The mysteries and this discussion seems to be going in a circle. My reply would still be, why the secrecy? Why is it needed exactly? Whether 2400 years ago they had a similar belief or reason for secrecy matters not, to me at least. You can relate the freemasonry to them, but that was also a different time and it's hard to compare that time to ours. For the most part, most of the world nowadays does not believe in lots of gods and goddesses , though there is still the minority that does. Our science is different and our technology is different. You did answer a question, whether it's just your opinion or the philosophy of the masons, you did say it was more important to fix yourself in order to better help the world. I think this is true to a point, but again, is it fixing yourself and is it making things better for yourself for selfish reasons? I guess it doesn't matter actually. To me, I see no reason for secrecy in this day and age, in fact, secrecy is also what is hindering this world. Secrecy causes man to go against man, secrecy also has impeded medical and scientific research. My belief is that the reason for secrecy must be to hide something. If you are hiding spiritual advances, it is a little like hiding the cure to AIDS. You could help the world spiritually, but you want them to earn it I suppose. If you had the cure for AIDS, you could give it to millions, or say, hey, they need to practice safe sex or they are never going to learn. My thoughts are "hey, if by me just saying or writing down beneficial things will help people, cool". Not everyone will read or listen, but hey, at least it's out there. I'm hearing your arguments and others as well and I'm thinking in time we may just agree to disagree over our philosophies of giving out information and help and probably other things as well. I have no problem with that. I do not walk in your shoes, nor you me, so what feels right to me may not feel right to you. I do not know who is in the right or in the wrong, I can only go by my instincts or gut feelings on all of this. I have read enough pro and anti mormon stuff that I feel it's pretty even. You have mason haters and then you have mason lovers that will defend masonry no matter how illogical the argument may be. I've enjoyed these discussions and am glad I participated so far. Nothing escalated or got out of hand or disrespectful. There were a couple of smart @ss comments, but hey, it's all good. Nothing got out of hand and that's what I like about debates. Good, open, honest and intelligent without getting childish or ignorant. Thanks to you and all of you who have replied so far!

JPT



reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:14 PM by justpassingthrough
Originally posted by Masonic Light
Originally posted by justpassingthrough


Well, I guess it depends on where you can get info, but you said name one man who has hurt society. Aliester Crowley There's a site that says he was a mason.


Crowley was what is known as a clandestine Mason. But I'm curious: how did he "hurt society". I realize that his books pissed a lot of conservatives off, but personally, I think that's a good thing!

Also, no, Hitler was not a Mason. He was, in fcat, a conspiracy theorist and anti-Mason. He used the Protocols as propaganda against Freemasonry.

Cheney, Rumsfield, etc... I bet there is a llist of good masons and probably a smaller list of bad masons.


Cheney and Rumsfeld are not Masons.





[edit on 22-5-2008 by Masonic Light]


Crowley did nothing to help this world really. The only thing he did was get people involved in more sinister things, spiritually that is and to focus again on themselves and their own power for their own benefit. I don't know a ton about him, but I can read more if you want to know more reasons because I can only imagine what else I would find out since the little I know about him has nothing good for society.

As far as Hitler, I don't think I ever said he was a mason or even mentioned his name for that matter. Also, I never said Cheney or Rumsfeld were masons. I was just saying that Bush is not the end all blame for what is going on these days, in fact I don't even think he is intelligent enough to put together the problems that the US has right now.

JPT


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:27 PM by Masonic Light
Originally posted by justpassingthrough
The mysteries and this discussion seems to be going in a circle. My reply would still be, why the secrecy?


Because the doctrines expressed in the Mysteries often were in opposition to those held by the status quo. This is why I referenced the execution of Socrates. Simply put, there have been times when one would be in physical danger for declaring the truth openly. Therefore, a different method had to be devised to protect both the truth and it's hierophants.

You did answer a question, whether it's just your opinion or the philosophy of the masons, you did say it was more important to fix yourself in order to better help the world. I think this is true to a point, but again, is it fixing yourself and is it making things better for yourself for selfish reasons?


This brings us to the really fundamental question: why do we exist in the first place? If the correct is, as I maintain, "to learn", then to acquire knowledge we must be virtuous and seek the good, which is the source of knowledge. Again I reference Plato concerning the connection between knowledge, virtue, and the good.

My belief is that the reason for secrecy must be to hide something.


And you are obviously correct. But we need to go further and ask "Is there a reason to hide something?"

If you are hiding spiritual advances, it is a little like hiding the cure to AIDS. You could help the world spiritually, but you want them to earn it I suppose.


Truth is given by God alone. It is my belief that initiation can aid one on his search, but cannot guarantee a man any special sort of enlightenment. It is Nature that hides her secrets, and it is She who makes us earn their knowledge. In the Mysteries, this fact was represented by the Veiled Isis, who symbolized Mother Nature concealing her mysteries.

Initiation does not teach dogmatically. It rather teaches in symbols. Even secrecy itself is not much more than a symbol, pointing out certain truths to those who dedicate themselves to finding them.


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:34 PM by JoshNorton
reply to post by fiorano


And, of course, it is the 3° which I was referring to when JPT asked "So you know exactly what it takes to make it to the highest degree or masonry and you know the ceremony for it, etc...?" Because, as has often been said here, there is no higher degree than that of Master Mason.

It's at this point that discussions usually start to break down with things like "how do you know?" etc. Let's not fall prey to that trap again, if at all possible.


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:41 PM by justpassingthrough
reply to post by Masonic Light


So, are you saying there are secrets the masons know now that they might be killed or hurt over if they divulged them to non-masons? Again, I hear you on your comparisons, to long ago, but again, we live in a different age right now and many things that applied then don't apply now. I guess I don't see a dangerous secret right now. Honestly, can you think of something that would be dangerous to say in this day and age, and I'm not talking about just anything, I'm talking about something that would benefit humanity. For example, if I knew that God didn't exist and could show proof, I would do it. This would obviously be dangerous, but had the potential of helping this world in the long term. So, in this day and age, could you give me some example of something dangerous that HAS to be kept a secret? Then again, if all masons knew the secret, then it wouldn't be that big of a secret after all and is bound to get out. Anyhow, I'll let you answer this.

As to the question why we exist, well would that be to help each other out. I mean, that's not the worldly view, but it certainly is the religious view, in my opinion. Hey, I'm just as selfish as the next guy and I'll admit that, but I do try and be better about it all the time AND I'm not on trial here, masonry is



The initiation stuff you mentioned to me doesn't justify any reason for secrecy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I feel. Feel free to expound on your thoughts or simply just disagree.

JPT


reply posted on 22-5-2008 @ 03:58 PM by JoshNorton
reply to post by justpassingthrough


There's no more important degree than the 3rd degree. One could say the Scottish Rite degrees of 4 to 33 are meaningless, and they are in that they hold no weight nor sway over Masonry. Each of them does teach a lesson, however. It's just up to the individual to take his own time to discern that meaning for himself.
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