God Does Not Exist

surely even a god does not have an ability to create itself

Originally posted by mullet35
surely even a god does not have an ability to create itself

well that depends on your idea of what a god is!
In my mind, and I don't go to church, you COULD call me catholic, but sorta quasi-christian will do, God is so powerful, there simply isn't anything he couldn't do. Saying that out loud, is kinda funny, until we learn better, we will allways see god in a materialistic manner. You know, bang, create universe, bang, hit 'em with a huge flood, bang, this, bang, that. I think down the track, we all come to the conclusion, that god, or whatever, exists on a spiritual level, that we as living flesh animals cant. And while everyone tries, some harder than others, to reach this level, we won't till we die, and move on.
With the main point of our lives being to prepare for this transition, on many levels. It absolutely amazes me that people can just get up and proudly announce that they are atheist, thats it no god, no afterlife, no more living after we die. All I can say to these types of people is, grab a big can of imagination, and skul.
Of course there is a way to keep everyone happy by saying.................... "the universe is god"

Think about that one

jongen toch , waar hou je je met bezig ?

geloof gaat je redden ?

to late , dice are ,,,,,

Ja, That' waar s. Alhoewel
I don' t spreekt het Nederlands. Babelfish only.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by Clearskies]

[edit on 21-4-2008 by Clearskies]

What a Rant! " I wouldn't be so bold as to pit my logic and reasoning
against God's". Said the ant to the man!
speaking of omniscient; seams some people feel they are!

I've heard every argument and debated every topic

Here is a good quote that is pertinent. "Don't confuse me with the
facts, my mind is made up"! author unknown

first of all heres my disclaimer :- I am a theist but not as you might know it! I'm not christian or a bible fanatic and I have no overwhelming desire to convert anybody to anything or any particular way of doing or seeing things..read this post at your own risk of being infected by my memes!

2nd of all, it appears that some people got it right when they said earlier in the forum that we need to openly communicate exactly what we each mean by our individual version of "GOD", so here goes my version of "GOD" in 4 sentences.
0) God is omniperfect (that meens completely perfect)
1) God is omnipresent (that meens is everywhere)
2) God being omnipresent is also omniscient (meens knows everything)
3) God being omnipresent & omniscient is also omnipotent (meens all powerfull)

(So now to answer Conspiracy Realists Question which as a theist I relish the oportunity ...continues from above-)

Therefor from my point of veiw there maybe a creator (conscious or not) that made the universe but if this creator fails to meet any of the above criteria then that creator is NOT a God in my eyes. Also the implications of above said criteria are beyond the scope of this discussion but to answer the original question posted 1) the universe is everything and so is my god 2) the universe as a whole knows itself fully and so does my god 3) the universe is all powerfull and so is my god , and finally 4) the universe is completely perfect (it doesn't allow breakages of its laws) and so is my god, so to not be so ambiguous in answering I say just open up your sensory organs and sense and if you get any input then thats your proof that you exist in a universe and my ambiguous answer makes it clear that the universe and god are one and the same! skribal was correct when they posted "The Universe is God" as it most probably would keep everybody happy.

If any of you have a problem with this answer, then it is because you disagree with one or several of the ways I define MY "GOD" this is completely ok as I'm not here to convert you, I just thought I might be able to answer your question regardless of whether you like the answer or not!

As to free-will destroying the credence of omniscience I say as I am a part of God and that I know what I know and that you are a part of God and you know what you know and yet either of us may not know what the other knows just shows that parts of God might be ignorant of other parts but collectively the entirety of God knows the entirety of everything (i.e itself) therefor at our very localized scale of God there is the appearance of free-will but globally in God everything is directed and has its time and place and purpose. I see no contradiction in the two and I just ask from where would you like me to look from, globally or locally, when I give you a very short answer to this question of free will destroying the existence of omniscience and therefor "GOD"?

please note I do not claim omnibenevolence or omnimorality for my "GOD" and in fact i perceive my "GOD" to be quite capricious and contradictory if not down right malicious and misleading but always perfect when doing or being so!

become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real! think globally act locally feel internally!

Q: please prove jesus existed. Answer: Sorry I'm not christian and therefor not an expert on him or his presumed existence or not.

Q: who created god or what was befor the big bang? Answer: 100% UNCERTAINTY which is a very funky quantum state out of which anything can and must pop! therefor both the universe and god create themselves out of a primordial eternal state of complete uncertainty (which they themselves originally were!!!).

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


I am sorry my information was no help to you. I am just waking up, and although that can sound strange, it doesn't to me right now because I truly feel like I am making solid realizations.
You seem to be on the same track as I am but I guess I have just made a few exceptions regarding personal responsibility. You see you are creating your own future like you think but the exception I think you need to make is that when your INTENTIONS good, you have harmony with the creator. It IS that simple to me.
Can you not shut the creator from his creation by accepting that he is and must be for anyting to be? Makes sense to me and I believe you will see,

"God is the light of mind. Gods thinking mind is all there is. Mind is universal. Mind of God and Mind of Man are ONE." -Walter Russell

he also says
"Science excluded God from its consideration because of the suuposition that God could not be proven by laboratory methods. This decision is unfortunate for God IS provable by laboratory methods. The locatable motionless Light which Man mistakenly calls magnetism is the invisible, but familiar, light which God IS -- and with it He controls His universe..."

Originally posted by mullet35
surely even a god does not have an ability to create itself

did you even read my post?

eerieleary brings up a very good point on science and God. How are we "theists" able to provide proof if we don't know where the goal posts are? CR (or anybody else) would you please define what you would consider as proof. would/does my above semantic effort cut it (I hope it would as you are asking this online and its hard to provide more than semantic proof!) if it doesn't I would still be very interested in what lab conditions and with what observers and with what measuring stick shall we try and dis/prove god with, according to Your as yet undisclaimed standards?

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. think globally act locally feel internally.

reply to post by Conspiracy Realist


No actually.
You made this thread, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.
You don't see me going around creating such threads because unlike you I don't feel the need to tout my beliefs as 100% unadulterated truth.
Especially considering the hard evidence to back your case is simply not there and your logic is flawed.

An intelligent entity like that, that could do anything would by necessity be self limiting and you seem to think you can judge its existence by what it would do, seeming to completely forget that just because you can do anything doesn't mean you should.

Like I said before it is well within my power to murder my daughter.
Probly not could get away with it, but it is within my power to do the deed.
But why would I? Does it mean I don't exist?

reply to
post by Sway33

And you are basing your beliefs as "truth" with no proof. Only difference is I am basing my beliefs on facts. Facts is there is no proof a God does exist. If I said flying fireball breathing dragons existed you would want some proof, but if I said they didn't exist, no proof is needed.

If you could prove to me God exists I would accept him.

Ho ho ho. Now THAT is funny.
Ok, fair enough.
Lay that undeniable unarguable proof that you have yet to use to prove that your basing your beliefs on facts?
And simple fact of here bucky boy.

I have not stated my belief either way.
You guys make the assumption that I am because I show the fact that your argument is flawed and pure smoke and mirrors.
Which is really telling.

So by all means try to get around once more the fact you go dick for proof for your stance. I will enjoy watching, especially if you try something new, though I highly doubt you will.




And heres one for both of you, you probly both completely miss the point but hey it might be fun watching you: Prove YOU exist

Perhaps if you can 100% without ANY possible loops holes even prove you exist perhaps I will ignore the obvious flaws in your logic and dance along to your tune.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by OmegaLogos

Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. think globally act locally feel internally.

I very much agree with your final statement as it is what I am going through. I never truly believed in god myself, and would judge and laugh and mock and just not believe what others thought and felt about God. My parents had these beliefs although they had greater discernment of fanatacism because of experience. I looked at anyone who used God as an excuse as someone who couldnt think for themself. Quite the opposite was true.

reply to post by eerieleary

Thanks for reading my post In response I reply...
We are sapient (it meens wise) for a reason and even though I once heard this saying that " God is like a invisible friend for grown up adults" followed by some mocking expletives and yet I do consider myself sapient but I realize both its and my own limitations and beyond that out of curiosity i turn to my invisible friend thanks . Fantasy is as much a part of reality as both you and I , the earth and the sun ect but just as we have our time and place so does fantasy and it has its own laws enviroments and actors ect and fantasy when opperating at full tilt under favourable conditions can expand and absorb the human mind in ways that have been known for ages as ways to touch the face of "GOD" and be in his/her/they're presence! (such as drug taking,dreaming ,music,art/painting,chanting,meditation,story telling ect).

EXPAND Your Consciousness and...
Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real! think globally act locally feel internally

Q: Am I FULL of it? Nah Mate I'm OVERFLOWING LOL!!!

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Erm actually I think I understand what your getting at but allow me to expand.
I am totally disillusioned. With, well, just about every damn thing.
There is not a thing in existence I don't look at with a fair amount of skepticism and wonder about. Especially what my fellow man has to say.
But neither has that led me to atheism.
It has instead led me to realize our limitations and how insignificant we really are in the big scheme of things.
And that taking such stands as "god does exist" or "god doesn't exist" is little more than more huffing and puffing from blowhards that think they have the universe pegged. Which given our limitations is silly at best.

My motto has always been "Follow your path. And I will follow mine. But don't try to pretend your path is the one that leads to the ultimate truth from which you can assault mine." Seeing as to how elusive the "ultimate truth" really is.

To sum it up allow me to use a quote from Babylon 5

Catherine Sakai: Ambassador! While I was out there, I saw something. What was it?
G'Kar: [points to a flower with a bug crawling on it] What is this?
Catherine Sakai: An ant.
G'Kar: Ant.
Catherine Sakai: So much gets shipped up from Earth on commercial transports it's hard to keep them out.
G'Kar: Yeah, I have just picked it up on the tip of my glove. If I put it down again, and it asks another ant, "what was that?",
[laughs]
G'Kar: how would it explain? There are things in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. They're vast, timeless, and if they're aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants, and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us. We know, we've tried, and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on.
Catherine Sakai: That's it? That's all you know?
G'Kar: Yes, they are a mystery. And I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe, that we have not yet explained everything. Whatever they are, Miss Sakai, they walk Sigma 957, and they must walk there alone

[edit on 21-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by WraothAscendant


Ah I see more clearly now and I am sorry if I misunderstood befor although i thought I was talking to eerieleary specifically and not specifically to you WraothAscendant but if I am taking all comers to this disillusioned thing then fine here goes 1) if you are totally disillusioned then your better than me and have something to teach me if one so desires 2) one is not totally disillusioned and has no desire to which is fine because I'm not looking for converts 3) one is not totally disillusioned but is on the way well the hell I've got company and so do you so lets share if we can

reply to post by OmegaLogos


Really? I thought this was a discussion forum were everyone can contribute?
As for the rest. I was merely offering some thoughts, not seeking to convert anyone to anything.
If you feel they are incorrect that is fine.

Too bad your seemingly condescending post doesn't do anything but ad hom at best. If I misunderstanding you I apologize.

And I said I wasn't totally disillusioned. I said disillusioned in damn near everything, especially what mankind has to say, EVERYTHING mankind has to say.

[edit on 21-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]

GOD
"An incomplete definition. Poverty of human speech incompetent to define what transcends human intelligence."

God is infinite in His perfections, but "infinity" is an abstraction. To say that God is infinity is to substitute the attribute of a thing for the thing itself, and to define something unknown by reference to some other thing equally unknown.



[edit on 21-4-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by OmegaLogos


CONSCIENCE to SELF WARNING ALERT!

this disillusion thing makes me uncomfortable as it seems off topic and I would rather discuss it in another thread if someone creates it (I'm New and don't know how) and directs me to it or tells me how to answer and use U2U? I would much prefer if people would answer my questions on setting the goal posts (see one of my previous posts) so us "theists" can provide proof of "GOD". To start with I won't ask anybody to do something I won't do myself so here goes. I started out with the tools of the english language with its grammatical and semantic rules and implications, rational and logical though grilled in scientific study and what I had learned up to any point of my life about what god was supposed to be in common thought at that time and place. with these tools and a curiosity to know such stuff I have found the semantic argument that I lay out in my very 1st post to this forum (found above on this page in this thread!) to be enough for me but I do not ask that anybody goes along with it for it is MY "GOD" GO GET YOUR OWN! LOL! But that is not to say you can't test me or my God , just ask away and I will give it my best answer and if I am ambiguous or misleading then I expect to be called on it. If I'm proven plain wrong then I will change positions to the new paradime of thought conserning such matters since I'm no fool well not for too long anyway so to sum up answering my own question I find strong logical rational semantically strong arguments that show and define what god really is as "PROOF" but I am willing to investigate and even take on board potentially achievable other definitions of "PROOF" as a mandatory requirable part of the expreimental criteria for dis/proving God exists! Any Takers???

Originally posted by lapi7
As a fundamentalist Christian let me be the first to say that if there is a God and if God wanted the world to know absolutely and without a doubt of His existence He could certainly show up and in only a way that God could do, PROVE Himself to the entire world like UFO's landing on the White House lawn...if He so desired.

He has not done this and I have absolutely no "PROOF" that He ever has. Therefore I agree with Conspiracy Realist. Neither Christian nor any practitioner of any other religion can "PROVE" that God exists, let alone that their religion by itself stands alone as the one and only "Truth"

This thread, debate or discussion would not even be taking place if God had "PROVEN" Himself to the entire world. Since there would then be absolute proof of who, what and where He was or is there would be no further need to discuss this issue.

For reasons that would be too lengthy to express here and now please note that I CHOOSE to believe that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be.
I CHOOSE to believe that He died for the sins of the world. I CHOOSE to believe that there was indeed a bodily resurrection of Christ.
Can I prove it? Absolutely not! No one can!

For whatever personal reasons I hold or maintain (and they are not necessarily based on science or even sound human logic) I CHOOSE to believe what I believe.

I CHOOSE MY FAITH.

And any practitioner of any faith or religion who claims authorship or ownership of “PROOF” is simply not being entirely honest or is completely disillusioned.

Please, no retorts from Christians declaring that I’m not “really saved” or any other such stupidity.

I’m a Christian…not a sheep or a lemming.

Isn't that amazing...I offer all of you "PROOF seekers" the truthful answers that you are demanding (because it IS the truth) and not a single word or acknowledgement of this "truth" that has been presented to you is considered worthy of comment, consideration or validation. No one mentions a word of it!

Which leads me to believe that the majority of all of you so-called “deep intellectual thinkers” as well as the majority of Christians and other religious people simply LOVE to argue and disagree in a vain attempt to scratch some cerebral itch?
Both sides absolutely LOVE to parade their “superior intellectual insights” or their “superior religious dogmas” before others in the vain and empty attempt to receive the adoration or condemnation of other onlookers and debaters.
IT'S THE ARGUMENT THAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU...NOT THE ANSWERS!!!
If you had "The Answers" you seek right in front of your noses (which I provided) you would ignore it and simply continue arguing. (And they call Christians the sheep!!!)

If either of you "converted" the other to his or her way of thinking it would probably tick you off. I've given you the "truth" that you asked for...but obviously that truth is not REALLY what you want...you simply all love to argue and show off your so-called intellectual or religious prowess. None of you have ever come to the "truthful" conclusion that debating God and theology is as useless as attempting to drain the ocean with a teaspoon!

Christians and non, have on with your idol chatter...

reply to post by lapi7


lapi7 you say in your post and I quote "And any practitioner of any faith or religion who claims authorship or ownership of “PROOF” is simply not being entirely honest or is completely disillusioned."

I have in my first post provided a prima face Semantic argumentative "PROOF" in my 1st post which clearly shows I have in your words "authorship" over that (I don't dispute this) and that as such either I am a Bald face liar or completely disillusioned. on the 1st matter please show me where I am lying to you or any body else as I am quite willing to be shown up publicly as I wouldn't be here and say the thing I say unless I realized that as a potential risk and on the 2nd matter I am not completely disillusioned as of yet but I do hope to become 100% disillusioned any day now so thanks for the well wishes and the sapience to realize that holding on the "proof" requires disillusionment from the start and total "proof" requires total disillusionment.

unfortunately none of this answers the thread Statement "God Does Not Exist", but if some people set some provable "PROOF" Goalposts then I will give the debate ball a boot around and see if i can kick a goal!

Basically what we are all after is a reliable God litmus test which begs the questions whats the litmus scale meen and how many times do we test to be safe and sure of a correct reading and where is the theological waters we must dip the test strips into? some would say the ummin and the thummin with whatever ritual that went along with their usage but I digress and leave the answering of these and previous questions to others! Again I Say to "PROVE" God one must 1st define what "PROOF" entails and as yet there is stony silence upon this matter through out this thread.