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God Does Not Exist

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posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by NGC2736
 


I understand what your trying to say, but a movie is a movie and you use your imagination to think of the possibilities. That is not logic, but rather the imagination at work.

Whats logical is thinking of the inconsistencies in the religious material such as the bible and koran.

If "god" in those 2 religious categories are:

#1 - Omniscient

#2 - Omnipotent

How do we as humans have free will? Its a total contradiction. Since its apart of "god's DIVINE PLAN" he knows the past, present and future.

This concept of a "divine plan" is perpetuated by religious people, not non-believers (ME). We merely attempt to illuminate the inconsistencies in your own dogma that you either ignore or fail to recognize.

The concepts of foreknowledge and free will are central to the debate of "god's" existence. I have done alot of thinking on these issues, and I came to a conclusion that is not widely accepted by most religious people. I only ask that whoever read what is written keeps an open mind, so that you may come to your own conclusion based on a logical and objective point of view, rather than blind faith and tradition. (not intended to offend anyone).

Creator of All Things - meaning the universe and all its contents were created by "god" as part of a "divine plan"; EVERYTHING happens according to "god's will" (in Islam they say "Inshallah).

Some Christians/Muslims/Judist want the theory of "Intelligent Design" taught in classrooms, arguing that the universe is "too complex" to have appeared without the design of an intelligent creator. For example, they say even the flagella on a bacteria is so complex that it must have been designed by "god". But if that were true, many other "complex organisms" would also have to be the product of intelligent design, including:

-H.I.V/A.I.D.S.
-Cancer
-Ebola
-Bubonic Plague
-Leprosy
-Polio
-Malaria
-Tuberculosis
-Influenza

(just to name a few)

What kind of "intelligent design" is this?! (And please spare the "mysterious ways" or "vengeful wrath" justification!! That is a lame excuse from religious people who can't think of a rational explanation, but are to brainwashed and afraid to oppose tradition.) But I digress....

The point is that even the most horrendous, misery inflicting diseases, and people (like Sadaam, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot), and events (like The Slave Trade, The Holocaust, etc..) all would have to be a part of "god's divine plan", if you believe in a "god" that is eternal, omnipotent, omniscient, AND the creator of ALL things. This realization is a direct contradiction of the typical portrayal of "god" as a merciful, gracious, "supreme being" that is the epitome of goodness. The next logical question should be "what kind of 'god' is this?" OR "does 'god' REALLY exist?"

Peace

CR




posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by Sway33
 


Exactly....!!

Applying names like "Creator, the Father, or Source" is nothing more but "titles"; they still do not tell us anything about the said things nature, primary attributes or what exactly is it. Actually what religious people have done in there attempt to define"God" is that they "negatively defined" God. In your attempt to provide meaning to the term “God”, you may object to my argument by saying that we know“ God” to be infinite, limitless, and immaterial, as already stated, but these descriptions however, amongst others, do nothing to help your position. This is because these descriptions are not identifying in nature; they are “negative definitions”. A negative definition is a definition which tells us what something is not, rather than what something is.

It is a description which critically lacks specificity—not telling us what is meant by a term that we may apply any secondary traits, but in forming us only of what it is not, which doesn’t help our situation at all.

For example, consider the following identification: “I am not SUPERMAN.” Now, while it is true that I am not SUPERMAN, this particular identification tells you virtually nothing about me.

All it tells you is that I am not one particular person. It still leaves the possibility of me being any other individual on earth, or even any other responsive entity in the universe.

As such, it critically lacks specificity. Observing the information given to us about the term“God” – we can see that such identifications as (infinite, limitless, and immaterial) are all negative in their meanings. “Infinite” is to be without a straint of time, “Limitless” is to be without boundaries (perhaps in action, such as “omnipotence”),and “Immaterial” is to be lacking of a material substance.

The problem here is that none of these terms actually identify what “God”’s primary attribute or composition actually IS, and thus gives us our inability to grasper understand what we are talking about—i.e. what it is that we are discussing, remains; what is God?

"All of the supposedly positive qualities of God arise in a distinctively human context of finite existence, and when wrenched from this context to apply to a supernatural being, they cease to have meaning." In a nutshell, how can you apply attributes or characteristics which were conceived by "physical finite beings" and apply them towards a transcendential immaterial being?



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 10:39 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


your making an aweful lot of assumptions about a deity, that if he exists, you cannot even possibly begin to understand.


[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by JPhish
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


your making an aweful lot of assumptions about a deity, that if he exists, you cannot even possibly begin to understand.


[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]


There not based on assumptions rather logic.

Lets reverse what you said.

Your making alot of assumptions about your deity (which cannot be proved), that if "IT" does not exist, you cannot even possibly begin to understand...


As i have said before the onus of proof is not on me (Atheist) as we are not the ones making the claim that a "god" exists.

Peace

CR



[edit on 20-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]

[edit on 20-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 10:58 PM
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I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment here. I am a Christian and believe in the Christian God, however, here are some questions to ask yourself.

Let's say, for argument's sake, the Bible has the concept of God wrong. Because you brought up Adam and Eve in your OP, it makes me think you do not believe the Judeo-Christian God exists. Ok, but what about a Supreme Being that we don't have figured out yet?

Let's say, again for argument's sake, that the Bible really was written by men in an effort to comprehend a force they couldn't even begin to fathom and simply did the best they could to understand this force.

Do you understand now? Just because an interpretation of God does not makes sense to you, how do you know no God exists whatsoever? You really don't nor can you.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


JEEZ! i totally had to omit the entire opener to my post because Ashley posted the same damn thing . . . .



Anyways i believe that your logic is flawed.

"Everything he should say should be in statements. lol. Questions too imply a "lack" of knowledge. So would ya think about that....... "

Do you really think that Aristotle was the first person to ask a rhetorical question? (Pun intended)



Lack of evidence is not proof that something does not exist.


[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate for a moment here. I am a Christian and believe in the Christian God, however, here are some questions to ask yourself.

Let's say, for argument's sake, the Bible has the concept of God wrong. Because you brought up Adam and Eve in your OP, it makes me think you do not believe the Judeo-Christian God exists. Ok, but what about a Supreme Being that we don't have figured out yet?

Let's say, again for argument's sake, that the Bible really was written by men in an effort to comprehend a force they couldn't even begin to fathom and simply did the best they could to understand this force.

Do you understand now? Just because an interpretation of God does not makes sense to you, how do you know no God exists whatsoever? You really don't nor can you.


Well if for arguments sake the concept of god in the bible is wrong then shouldn't that say something? The bible was written by man apparently in God's words right? Then if the Bible is wrong then it makes the "god" meaningless.

You need to prove with evidence to make your point factual. As stated previously the onus of proof is not on us (Atheists) it is on you (Theists) since you (Theists) are the ones making the claim that a "diety/god" exists.

Please read previous posts.

Peace CR

[edit on 20-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:20 PM
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I'm not seeing how omnipotence, omniscience, and free will clash with each other.

Just because he knows what you'll do doesn't mean he controls what you do. Just because he has the power to do anything, means that he will do everything.

Evil's existence, well it does say God is the creator of all things, including evil somewhere in the bible. To say that a God cannot exist because of evil's existence is to say you know the purpose of the world and the purpose of evil in this world.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by ThePiemaker
 


Well to say god is omnisicient and then say we as humans have free will is a total contradiction.

1 - Omnipotent- meaning "god" is all powerful; "god" can do ANYTHING.

2 - Omniscient- meaning "god" has absolute divine foreknowledge about EVERY person, place, thing, or event in the past, present, and future, even before the Universe itself ever existed. He planned it that way - "god's divine plan"

Now let's look at a hypothetical situation concerning death.

Suppose 4 years from now, 2012, my mother is kidnapped by a 24 yr. old man, who rapes her and then cuts her throat. According to most religious people, my mother's death was a part of "god's" plan before the universe existed, however unfortunate the cause of her death.

Now let's rewind back to the year 2007, and suppose this now 24 yr. old man is a university student in London. He has never been to America, he has no plans of going to America., and he certainly has no plans of killing my mother 5 years from now, since he has no clue who she is. But according to religious people, my mother's death was already a part of "god's" plan before THE UNIVERSE EXISTED, let alone the birth of the killer!! The logical conclusion is that the killer was NOT acting upon free will, but he was simply playing out what was already planned by "god" before the universe existed!! Therefore, why should he, or anyone else, be condemned to an eternity in "hell" for something they have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OVER????

The predictable response from a religious person would be, "Of course 'god' has foreknowledge, but he also gave us free will, which dictates our eternal life." This is like saying "Big Pun was obese, but he was still healthy."

Allow me to further explain this hypothetical situation:

Suppose I could travel back in time to have a conversation with "god" before the universe existed. The topic of discussion would be my mother's death, as explained in the previous situation:

Q: "'God', do you know how my mother is going to die?"
A: " Of course I know, I'm 'God'!! Your mother will be kidnapped, raped, and her throat will be cut by a 24 yr. old man from London in the year 2012."

Q: "Is it possible that your foreknowledge might be inaccurate?"
A: "Are you kidding me? I'm 'God', you infidel !! I have absolute divine foreknowledge that is (a trillion) x ( infinity) percent accurate!!! It is COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE for ME to have inaccurate foreknowledge about MY OWN CREATION!!!! Your mother will be kidnapped, raped, and her throat will be cut by a 25 yr. old man from London in the year 2012!!"

Q: " Is it possible that she might die in a car crash in 2032, instead of being killed in 2012?"
A: "NO!! Your mother will be kidnapped, raped, and her throat will be cut by a 24 yr. old man from London in the year 2012!!"

Q: " Is it possible that I can save her life, and the killer will kill me instead?"
A: " NOOOOO!!! I just told you, your mother will be kidnapped, raped, and her throat will be cut by a 24 yr. old man from London in the year 2012! There is nothing that you, or anyone else can do about it!!

Do you see my point? If "god" truly has absolute divine foreknowledge of EVERYTHING before the universe existed, it is because "god" PLANNED EVERYTHING before the universe existed, NOT because it just so happens that "god" has some kind of passive foreknowledge about the future without having any control over it. Therefore, it would be impossible for the killer, or anyone else, to make a decision based on free will. And it would be cruel and immoral to punish anyone for something they have no control over.



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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This thread is more congruent with the topic of free will.

www.belowtopsecret.com...


Excerpt from that thread:


Let's simplify things into numbers

You are given a choice 1 or 2

You like 2

2

now your given a choice 2 or 3

you like 3

2+3

now you are given a choice 3 or 4

you still like 3

2+3+3

now you are given a final choice 4 or 5

you like 4


2+3+3+4= 12

You got what you wanted and it changed the "form" of the equation. But the complete opposite of choices still equals 12.

1+2+4+5= 12

Even more simply. In this mathematical demonstration i am gearing you to get a score of 10 or higher. Regardless of your choices, which do change the numbers involved- you cannot escape The plan.

[edit on 4/20/2008 by JPhish]

[edit on 4/21/2008 by JPhish]



posted on Apr, 20 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist
Well if for arguments sake the concept of god in the bible is wrong then shouldn't that say something? The bible was written by man apparently in God's words right? Then if the Bible is wrong then it makes the "god" meaningless.


I think you are missing my point about my Devil's Advocate role. You are bringing up 'logical' contradictions of God's attributes and our existence in relation to the concept of the Judeo-Christian God as described in the Bible. The only thing your objections would prove, if anything, would be that God would not exist in that sense and interpretation. Not that any supreme being doesn't exist whatsoever. Maybe the 'real god' is not omnipotent. Maybe it is not omniscient. Maybe he is not 'all' anything. Maybe it is impotent and cannot interfere outside its spiritual realm. See where I'm going with this?


You need to prove with evidence to make your point factual. As stated previously the onus of proof is not on us (Atheists) it is on you (Theists) since you (Theists) are the ones making the claim that a "diety/god" exists.


No, my dear. You made the thread entitled 'God does not exist.' Therefore, the burden of proof is on you. Good luck, Sweetheart.


[edit on 4/20/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

No, my dear. You made the thread entitled 'God does not exist.' Therefore, the burden of proof is on you. Good luck, Sweetheart.


[edit on 4/20/2008 by AshleyD]


An Atheist does not need to prove that a god doesnt exist since we are not the ones making the claim that "something" does exist. Like i said the onus of proof is on you.


Correct, i made the thread. Now you can clearly show me the evidence to prove the existence of YOUR god?



Maybe the 'real god' is not omnipotent. Maybe it is not omniscient. Maybe he is not 'all' anything. Maybe it is impotent and cannot interfere outside its spiritual realm. See where I'm going with this?


Well in that case you might as well toss the bible/koran in the bin and write your own, since they are the titles that are written to define what "god" is.

Im posting in reference to what is written in the bible/koran etc. That is the only evidence theists claim in proving god's existence so therefore your "maybe's" isnt based on any form of evidence rather opinions.

It is your bible that claims its god is omnipotent & omniscient i am only rebuting what it claims.

Remember the bible is written in god's words. So therefore your "maybe's" are a sign that you yourself are not sure what god exactly is, so therefore how can you worship something you are not entirely sure what it is.

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:09 AM
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reply to post by JPhish
 



I hope you had somebody double check your tax return.

Hey, it's late, I'm tired, this passes for good humored ribbing.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


Well said.


Maybe a believer can answer this for me.

Why does the search always stop at the supposed "God?" If someone must have created the universe, then why does it stop there? Who created "God?" You can't just say before the universe it was just God and a paintbrush ready to create. Who created the artist? Do believers ask themselves this question? Or does belief blind your logic?

In short, why is it more logical that a supreme being created the universe then the universe always being in existence?



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Sway33
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


Well said.


Maybe a believer can answer this for me.

Why does the search always stop at the supposed "God?" If someone must have created the universe, then why does it stop there? Who created "God?" You can't just say before the universe it was just God and a paintbrush ready to create. Who created the artist? Do believers ask themselves this question? Or does belief blind your logic?

In short, why is it more logical that a supreme being created the universe then the universe always being in existence?



Thats the difference between Science & Religion.

Science does not claim it knows every answer. Religion does!...

Peace



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 




if God created time, then God existed before time, therefore God transcends time, meaning applying the limitations of time to him would be erroneous. "I AM" not "I WAS" or "I WILL BE". our past present and future could be one and the same to God.

What limits us does not necessarily limit God. We don't know, since we are too limited in our knowledge of God, and of the Universe.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by ThePiemaker
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 




if God created time, then God existed before time, therefore God transcends time, meaning applying the limitations of time to him would be erroneous. "I AM" not "I WAS" or "I WILL BE". our past present and future could be one and the same to God.

What limits us does not necessarily limit God. We don't know, since we are too limited in our knowledge of God, and of the Universe.


You jumped from debating about how humans have free will and when i refuted that we are suddenly talking about time.

So are you claiming we as humans have free will but yet your god is still omniscient and omnipotent?

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:26 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


If he transcends time then he can know the outcome of all that occurs within time while those within time are still free to make their own choices.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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lol. Dude theres no logic in religion. So you cant exactly call it a logical fallacy. It's a belief. You can't PROVE that god doesn't exist, But you can't prove that he does.



posted on Apr, 21 2008 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by Sway33
Maybe a believer can answer this for me.

Why does the search always stop at the supposed "God?" If someone must have created the universe, then why does it stop there? Who created "God?"


This has been asked and answered for centuries, not to mention repeatedly on ATS in my mere four months here. It is a good question (which probably explains its frequent surfacing) but it does have an answer and it has been given. You cannot assign the limits of our material realm guided by the laws of physics onto a non material being.

[edit on 4/21/2008 by AshleyD]



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