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God Does Not Exist

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posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


And you defend a strawman argument WITH the very definition of a strawman argument.

Especially considering I don't remember him ever making such a statement.

Aside from obvious logical fallacies that I won't bother to point out.

[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]


Please point out my logical fallacies.... i shall wait your reply.

If anything has fallacies its your belief in a deity. Now thats a fallacy


But not one of of you has even proved anything to refute any of the said things within the main topic with any reference, evidence, proof to back up your THEORIES of a god existing.

Like i said Atheist dont have to prove anything since we didnt make the initial claim of a "god" existing. So the onus of proof is on yourselves - THE THEISTS.

List your proofs, evidences for the existence of your god it shouldnt be so hard should it?

Peace

CR




posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 09:38 PM
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Your problem is you really do not want to know the truth at all. This thread isn't your quest for truth. Your mind is made up and you it gives you a sense of comfort to bolster up your arguments. I am not arguing with you, I know, I have nothing to prove. Experience never answers to opinion. I am just telling you, you are wrong for your own benefit. You will not be able to claim ignorance.



Romans 1:
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Your problem is you really do not want to know the truth at all. This thread isn't your quest for truth. Your mind is made up and you it gives you a sense of comfort to bolster up your arguments. I am not arguing with you, I know, I have nothing to prove. Experience never answers to opinion. I am just telling you, you are wrong for your own benefit. You will not be able to claim ignorance.



Romans 1:
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."


This is a forum for debates and to converse with others with more or little knowledge on the said topics at hand.

The topic at hand is "God Does Not Exist". PROVE ME WRONG, thats all i ask.

Tell me what "THE TRUTH" is?

Peace

CR

[edit on 22-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


1) Hmmm I said I believed in a deity? Where did I say that? Not talking inference or possible statements of believe I am talking about where I actually said I believed such a thing.

2) And it's all well and good to claim the onus of proof is on everyone else but more than a little telling that you fall back on that little bit of rhetoric when asked POINT BLANK for proof of your own stance. Rather than actual proof for your stance, which we both know you don't have, you spew out this tripe, repeatedly.
The fact that your trying hard to cover up your lack of proof shows.

And actually your thread's name is: God Does Not Exist.
But with no actual proof short of bad rhetoric to cover it, it should be noted but all well.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


1) Hmmm I said I believed in a deity? Where did I say that? Not talking inference or possible statements of believe I am talking about where I actually said I believed such a thing.

2) And it's all well and good to claim the onus of proof is on everyone else but more than a little telling that you fall back on that little bit of rhetoric when asked POINT BLANK for proof of your own stance. Rather than actual proof for your stance, which we both know you don't have, you spew out this tripe, repeatedly.
The fact that your trying hard to cover up your lack of proof shows.

And actually your thread's name is: God Does Not Exist.
But with no actual proof short of bad rhetoric to cover it, it should be noted but all well.


[edit on 22-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]


#1 - Since your debating against the topic at hand one can easily come to the conclusion that you are a Theist who believes in a "god" of sort. So my statements are justified.

#2 - How can something non existent be proved? umm does it make sense... how can you prove something that doesnt exist? LOL....

Theists are the ones claiming there SOMETHING - "god" exists, we are not prancing around saying:

"I have this invisible friend right, i cant show you that he exists and stuff, but trust me my friend, he does. He is cruel, childish & vindictive and his morals belong to some society that is completely different from ours. I want to carry out his WILL together with my sexist organization who have over and over shown that when it gets sufficient power it will oppress, kill or torture those who don't agree with it. Therefore I should have a greater say in matters of ethics and morality."

As i have said before the above argument would of course be a laughing stock amongst normal people, but that is until someone calls this invisible friend of theres "God", then suddenly its deemed to be reasonable.


Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 



#1 - Since your debating against the topic at hand one can easily come to the conclusion that you are a Theist who believes in a "god" of sort. So my statements are justified.


Sure if you treat your assumptions as the gospel. Which is another telling thing.
Funny thing is, there are others out there that will tell you they have nothing to prove that a god doesn't exist but they choose to believe such. Which is fine. You on the other hand confuse your beliefs with facts.

Oh man you sound soo much like a few Christians I have heard screaming "The only Christians are the ones that believe and act EXACTLY LIKE ME!!"
Which I rather think I don't need to explain to you how silly that sounds.

Your thread is about the stance "God Does Not Exist" and you have nothing to prove that. Yet you act like you do.



#2 - How can something non existent be proved? umm does it make sense... how can you prove something that doesnt exist? LOL....

Theists are the ones claiming there SOMETHING - "god" exists, we are not prancing around saying:

"I have this invisible friend right, i cant show you that he exists and stuff, but trust me my friend, he does. He is cruel, childish & vindictive and his morals belong to some society that is completely different from ours. I want to carry out his WILL together with my sexist organization who have over and over shown that when it gets sufficient power it will oppress, kill or torture those who don't agree with it. Therefore I should have a greater say in matters of ethics and morality."

As i have said before the above argument would of course be a laughing stock amongst normal people, but that is until someone calls this invisible friend of theres "God", then suddenly its deemed to be reasonable.


1) Neither could you prove such a being if it chose not be revealed.
Which of course would prove Abrahamic religions in a way, wrong. But hardly the existence of such a being as they attempt to describe.

2) As for the rest, that is a silly childish blanket generalization that is simply not true and thusly not worth responding to beyond what I have already said.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 



The topic at hand is "God Does Not Exist". PROVE ME WRONG, thats all i ask.


Just your opinion. You can not prove he does not exist. If you want solid proof you can have it. Not on your terms but his. After all he is God and you're not. If you want to know the truth I already described above how you approach him.



Tell me what "THE TRUTH" is?


God does exist. He who seeks finds.

[edit on 4/22/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 10:54 PM
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Sure if you treat your assumptions as the gospel. Which is another telling thing.
Funny thing is, there are others out there that will tell you they have nothing to prove that a god doesn't exist but they choose to believe such. Which is fine. You on the other hand confuse your beliefs with facts.


Yet you have provided no information to refute any of the things that have been said in the topic.

Can you offer something to the table, or will you just dribble drabble your way around it?


Your thread is about the stance "God Does Not Exist" and you have nothing to prove that. Yet you act like you do.


Correct the topic is "God Does Not Exist", yet you have not brought anything to the table to refute it......yet.

How can something NON-EXISTENT meaning it does not exist be proved. Hence why we as Atheist do not need to prove the non existent for the mere fact that it really does not exist.

But Theists on the other hand CLAIM there god exists and have all the proof they need to worship there god. I want to know what proofs they have that a god really does exist.


1) Neither could you prove such a being if it chose not be revealed.
Which of course would prove Abrahamic religions in a way, wrong. But hardly the existence of such a being as they attempt to describe.


Im not the one making the claim that a deity exists. Theists are. So it should be relatively easy for them to prove it exists. 1 person already claimed it exists due to personal experience. I want to hear other peoples views as to whats deemed as sufficient proof that god actually exists. You have provided neither.


2) As for the rest, that is a silly childish blanket generalization that is simply not true and thusly not worth responding to beyond what I have already said.


So your god is not "cruel, childish & vindictive" is that what your trying to say? So in essence your saying your god is a "good god"?

So what do you exactly believe?

Peace

CR



[edit on 22-4-2008 by Conspiracy Realist]



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


Yet he continues to make the claim he is not in fact making a claim in a thread of his making entitled "God Does Not Exist".........
Rrrrriiiiiigggggghhhhhhtttttt.
Sounds like a claim to me.

And as for my beliefs.
Not relevant, and I am not saying so go a. and spin assumptions. You seem good at it. And besides your assumptions (and attempts to justify them) are so much more entertaining then the truth.
Seeing as to how this about you and how you claim "God Does Not Exist" yet say you don't need to prove such a claim but in fact those that disagree with you must prove their stance.
I keep asking you for evidence for your stance and you keep telling me:
"I don't need evidence. They do!"
Funny thing is I severely doubt you'd accept such an argument against you.



posted on Apr, 22 2008 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


Yet he continues to make the claim he is not in fact making a claim in a thread of his making entitled "God Does Not Exist".........
Rrrrriiiiiigggggghhhhhhtttttt.
Sounds like a claim to me.

And as for my beliefs.
Not relevant, and I am not saying so go a. and spin assumptions. You seem good at it. And besides your assumptions (and attempts to justify them) are so much more entertaining then the truth.
Seeing as to how this about you and how you claim "God Does Not Exist" yet say you don't need to prove such a claim but in fact those that disagree with you must prove their stance.
I keep asking you for evidence for your stance and you keep telling me:
"I don't need evidence. They do!"
Funny thing is I severely doubt you'd accept such an argument against you.


I brought to the table the topic at hand, how can a non existent THING be proven. I just stated facts about what is said in within religion about this deity. Yet you still have not argued any thing to do with the topic.

Exactly how can i provide evidence for a "thing" that i have not claimed to exist. Theists are the ones making the claim im just discussing how its impossible for a God to exist.

PROVE ME WRONG!!!

PS: If i dont reply i lost the humor.

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:04 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 



I brought to the table the topic at hand, how can a non existent THING be proven. I just stated facts about what is said in within religion about this deity. Yet you still have not argued any thing to do with the topic.


And I answered, multiple times now. Though obviously not in a way you find acceptable, though I highly doubt there is any argument you'd accept no matter how valid. You believe your right and are obviously on a crusade for your own overblown opinion.
Simple fact of the matter is, in the big scheme of things, they have has little proof as you do. Just a lot of belief. Like you.
But you feel the need to proclaim yours as true and right.
Even though you have notta in the way of proof for your stance.
You can use whatever out you think is valid but the fact still remains.
You have no evidence of your stance and are attempting to hide it.

Which is what of course feeds into the real problem with humanity, not beliefs, but intolerance.
Your belief that there is nothing is perfectly fine, regardless of what a great many zealots of other beliefs will attempt to tell you otherwise. But you don't beat them by acting like them.



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 



I brought to the table the topic at hand, how can a non existent THING be proven. I just stated facts about what is said in within religion about this deity. Yet you still have not argued any thing to do with the topic.


And I answered, multiple times now. Though obviously not in a way you find acceptable, though I highly doubt there is any argument you'd accept no matter how valid. You believe your right and are obviously on a crusade for your own overblown opinion.
Simple fact of the matter is, in the big scheme of things, they have has little proof as you do. Just a lot of belief. Like you.
But you feel the need to proclaim yours as true and right.
Even though you have notta in the way of proof for your stance.
You can use whatever out you think is valid but the fact still remains.
You have no evidence of your stance and are attempting to hide it.

Which is what of course feeds into the real problem with humanity, not beliefs, but intolerance.
Your belief that there is nothing is perfectly fine, regardless of what a great many zealots of other beliefs will attempt to tell you otherwise. But you don't beat them by acting like them.


I asked you a question: What is your belief?

You denied to answer it.

So i ask again. What is your belief? Do you believe in a god?

Its not a matter of THINKING im right. I KNOW im right, i dont need religion nor god to live a righteous life under the banner of fear from eternal damnation if i am not a believer.

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


No you believe your right.
You have nothing to prove it so it is simply a belief sorry.

And once again.
My beliefs are irrelevant as I am not making claims like you are.
You only want to know it because you believe that it will provide some leverage for your arguments, which is ad hom and of course proves nothing.
Otherwise why would you make it such an issue?



[edit on 23-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


No you believe your right.
You have nothing to prove it so it is simply a belief sorry.

And once again.
My beliefs are irrelevant as I am not making claims like you are.
You only want to know it because you believe that it will provide some leverage for your arguments, which is ad hom and of course proves nothing.
Otherwise why would you make it such an issue?

[edit on 23-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]


This is very humorous.

The initial claim of GOD EXISTING is from the Theists. I am not making the claim of a deity existing. I am discussing facts for the concept of GOD. Once again how can i prove something that I KNOW or I BELIEVE does not exists.

Atheists dont believe in any deity's/god's. We are not making the claim that IT DOES EXIST. We are simply providing information that the concept of god and what is discussed within such books as the bible/koran are flawed.

The onus of proof for something existing is on the one making the claim that that SOMETHING actually exists.

Till this day i am yet to see any proof of neither JESUS or GOD existing.

We find dinosaur bones going back THOUSANDS if not MILLIONS of years yet there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus even existed.

Peace

CR



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:39 AM
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there is no evidence to suggest that Jesus even existed.


:shk: There's loads of extra Biblical historical evidence...

Jesus Christ: Did He Really Exist

Ignorance denied.....



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 12:42 AM
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reply to post by Conspiracy Realist
 


No your making the claim it does NOT exist.
Would be rather silly if you made the claim (being an atheist) that it did exist.


With absolutely nothing to back your belief but rhetoric.

[edit on 23-4-2008 by WraothAscendant]



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist

Originally posted by Enrikez

Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist
We can prove how a engine works, we can provide evidence for the motion of that engine which spins the wheels etc.

What proof or evidence can you provide that God was the creation of everything? NONE!


The rest of this post is inconsequential because you set up your arguement undder a false pretense. You've created a strawman here.

Understanding the principles of the engine doesn't provide proof of who created the engine either. So you have no arguement.


Strawman argument? LOL far from it.

You can do your research, investigation and find out who made the engine, thats logical i would of thought


Can you prove who created the earth, mankind and everything.... oh wait your going to say read the bible because every answer to every question which science does not have is in that little book right....."rolls eyes"

Peace

CR


and what is the scientific alternative? that the universe just ¨pop¨ appeared?

if i said to you that an engine (a complex mechanical structure with a specific purpose) ¨pop¨appeared in my room, you´d label me a looney!

you would begin to explain that science would provide a reasonable answer as to why the engine was there. and you would be right. it cant simply appear or create its self. it would be thoerised that someone put it there.

but somehow, when it comes to the universe, the oposite is believed. according to athiests, it is more logical and scientific that something complex (what can be more complex than the universe?) just popped into existance for no reason.

simple logic. atheism is UNSCIENTIFIC. it is illogical. something CANNOT appear from nothing for no reason! it has never happened and never will happen. it cannot be proven with any theory!

you want proof that god exists? eliminate the impossible and whatever is left, however improbable is your answer.

dont you watch star trek people?



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 10:50 AM
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Conspiracy Realist I answer your questions posed on omniscience vs free will in your very 1st post in my very 1st post (on page 5 of this thread) which contains all my beliefs. Bigwhammy gives a good metaphor for the local/global vs flat/round differing points of view that can be taken and have both simultaneously valid, so it becomes dependent on us to designate where our primary POV is coming from because if we get this wrong to start with then all our following perceptions will be warped to fit its constraints with obvious negetive outcomes.

Also on that page but under a later post I enquire what constitutes proof to you. I have no problem providing proof (as you are correct that the burden of proof is on the theists) especially if I know what it constitutes!
This is because you say and I quote "Yeah, but can you prove God’s existence? No, no proof either beyond your own "personal experiences"". In this case I refer you to Dante's argument on perception which you can google or find on wiki which will show that our own individual "personal experiences" is all we really do have to go on! This is called empirical anecdotal evidence. When we all get together and match up our individual evidences and find that they are repeatable it becomes a science interested in its conditions, states and outcomes. it is the outcomes that we are interested in here as they would definitely constitute "PROOF". So what outcomes and under what lab conditions are you looking for? Would you accept such "PROOF" if it was found to exist?

miriam0566 says and I quote "and what is the scientific alternative? that the universe just "pop!" appeared?" and Conspiracy Realist you say and again I quote "What proof or evidence can you provide that God was the creation of everything? NONE!"...well not so fast there I say and direct you to see my definitions of my "GOD" and then the last paragraph of my very 1st post in this thread (page5) where I show both the universe and god are self causal and one and the same thing!" you have yet to refute this as "PROOF" and although what I say isn't "PROOF" until you agree it is I still believe it constitutes enough evidence to be considered "PROOF" until "PROVEN" otherwise!

BTW I myself don't proclaim any book as all the knowledge (AKA "The Truth!") you will ever need and I join you in detesting those who promote such garbage



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 05:04 PM
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The whole irony is this: an atheist would have the chance of discovering the fountain of youth quicker than he could find God. An atheist wouldn't recognize God unless he wrote it in the sky, but why? What makes any of you think that a higher power is looking for your approval? Does he even want to be discovered by an atheist? Why would he bother?

God is not looking for anyones approval! What a concept! It doesn't matter if you ever accept him. But as Albert Einstein said:

It's better to live as though there were a God and find out there isn't one, than the other way around!"

If he is right - it is certainly the wisest, not foolish, to at least reason on this. I am not talking religion (look to my threads for verification).



posted on Apr, 23 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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Originally posted by Conspiracy Realist

PROVE ME WRONG!!!


[SNIP] You are purposely pulling other posters along for your own enjoyment simply because good natured posters are trying to take your challenge seriously.

The fact is that you require 'proof' for anyone to refute your claims of God not existing. By the careful selection of the word 'proof', one can only logically assume that you are asking for 'scientific proof', which is dependent on testing, instead of other types of proofs.

By limiting your 'conditions', you are falsely leading members into your mousetrap, as an intelligent designer and multiple universe theories are presently untestable .

However, you have been offered other types of proofs ... which you have categorically dismissed off hand.





[edit on 23-4-2008 by Enrikez]

 


Edited out personal insult

Please read from the T&C's;

2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, hateful and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

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[edit on 23/4/08 by masqua]



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