Did Jesus really die?, page 5
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reply posted on 10-4-2008 @ 09:21 AM by saint4God
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
But let's look for further proof that Jesus didn't die on the cross. There's a very peculiar sentance in the Gospel where Jesus regrets his destiny and asks God to change his destiny:

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

and

Mark 14:36 "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

and finally

Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

Jesus regrets his destiny and asks God for redemption. Was this what happened? Did God take the cup of destiny (the Holy Grail) away from him?


Yes, Jesus made this request. Yes, he stated ultimately he would submit to God's will for him. No, God did not grant him this request. Revisiting the cross:

"But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:40-43

It could be that your idea of paradise is being trapped in a dark tomb with holes in your hands/wrists, feet, and ribs, but it doesn't seem to jive with:

"Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last." - Luke 23:46

Ah, forgot to mention 'stop breathing' and without a spirit. So in this zombificated state one experiences 'paradise'? The next question is if he had no need of breathing, why was he breathing, eating and drinking after his resurrection?

So then, normally they break your legs (which does heal) but the soldiers decided a harder test to recover from:

"But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water" - John 19:33-34

What medicine then (or now) cures a man who has stopped breathing and then is jabbed with a spear while blood and water flows out?

John 19:38 begins with "Later..." Not "immediately after" or "then," and for good reason. He was still up there hanging. How long was he up there not breathing and bleeding? Long enough to say "later".

The issue here though isn't IF Jesus died or not, rather something you'd mentioned in your previous post - that you have a difficult time believing that a man who is God could die. It's a much bigger and more complicated issue than conducting a scriptural autopsy.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Reading the first chapter of the Gospel of John, I find it impossible for Jesus to die.


No amount of talking from me or anyone else will do any good until this obstacle is overcome. If you believe anything in the Bible, how about believing this?:

"Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." - Matthew 19:26

[edit on 10-4-2008 by saint4God]


reply posted on 10-4-2008 @ 01:59 PM by Neo Christian Mystic
All I know is that after Jesus seamingly died on the cross he was alive three days later. The only viable explanation for this is that he survived the execution. It wouldn't be the first time. A friend of mine was under water and "dead" for almost an hour. He came back to life and suffered no brain damage. And I myself know what it will say to have your longue punctured. The air pressure rise in the thorax making it impossible to breathe after a while. If you then stick an object like a spear into your side, you will see a sudden flow of blood and water. The blood comes from the wound in your longue, while the water is from vapour in the air you breathe. Jesus had a punctured longue and stopped breathing (spirit or Gr. pneuma means breath). It doesn't mean he was dead. It means he couldn't breathe until Longinus pierced his side with the Spear of Destiny. Longinus and the other soldiers even became Christians themselves, and witnessed by the cross that Jesus was the Son of God, "they were terrified, and exclaimed, 'Surely he was the Son of God!'". This was probably why Longinus gave Jesus special treatment, eventhough he risked the death penalty for not making sure he was dead. For what did Jesus say? "There is no greater love, than to give ones life for another".

What Jesus said to the criminal on the cross is actually translated: "What has happened today (shall) be with me to Paradise." Jesus doesn't say when he will enter Paradise, and as far as I know he didn't go to heaven until Pentecost.

Your arrogance and satire in your last post isn't justified. All you have is a church that has claimed for 2000 years that Jesus died on the cross. Being dead for three days and then rise from the dead just isn't possible.


reply posted on 23-4-2008 @ 01:35 AM by Iasion
Hiya,

Originally posted by 24thchance
Of course he died, there are tons of the best evidence available.
1st- the eyewitnesses, they are the best proof of anything.


There were no eye-witnesses to Jesus.
Merely characters in anonymous books.
Modern NT scholars agree not one book of the NT was written by anyone who ever met any Jesus.
The Gospels were all anonymous works, whose titles were added later - they are not by any witnesses to anything.


Originally posted by 24thchance
2nd-the soldiers that guarded him. If you fell asleep on duty then it's sure death to you.


The soldiers are merely characters in anonymous books.
There is no real evidence this happened.


Originally posted by 24thchance
3rd- Blood?water gushed out after they checked to see if he was really dead( I would suppose it would be hard to fool a roman guard who did this everyday, they'd know all the tricks).


This is merely an episode from an anonymous books.
There is no real evidence this happened.


Originally posted by 24thchance
4th-the fact that 12 disciples who were willing to quit on Jesus right after he died, all of a sudden became bold and courageous and were willing to give their very lives, for what ? a lie?. I sure would'nt risk my life for something I was'ant sure of!!!!


Merely episodes from anonymous stories.
There is no actual evidence for any of this.
Just the SAME STORIES you are trying to validate.


Originally posted by 24thchance
5th-the veil that was ripped in 2 parts. It was a very thick curtain weighing hundreads of pounds, incredibly hard to rip even if the jewish priests let you, and you had a big knife. Plus it was ripped from top to bottom, not the way i'd do it.
These are only 5 of the many proof,s that we humans killed King Jesus!!!


You must be joking!

You simply preached elements FROM the story, as if that proves the same story true !

There is no actual evidence for ANY of it.

Jesus himself made NO mark at all on history - there is not one single piece of CONTEMPORARY evidence for Jesus at all.

None.

All we have is STORIES about Jesus from long aftewards.

Jesus is a myth.


Iasion


reply posted on 23-4-2008 @ 03:53 AM by Neo Christian Mystic
Originally posted by Iasion
There were no eye-witnesses to Jesus.
Merely characters in anonymous books.
Modern NT scholars agree not one book of the NT was written by anyone who ever met any Jesus.
The Gospels were all anonymous works, whose titles were added later - they are not by any witnesses to anything.


Actually, the writer of the Gospel of John claims to be an eye witness:

John 21:24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

To say that Jesus has made no impact on history is to eat a mouthful of salt. There probably isn't any other character that has impacted history more than our friend Jesus. Dozens if not hundreds of books written about him in the first century after his supposed death. And it's obvious that the writer of Luke and Acts had deep insight, though probably second hand, into the wherabouts of the characters in the NT. "John" was an eye witness, and Matthew, originally written in Hebrew Aramaic was intended for the Christian Jews in Jerusalem. The book is mentioned in secular sources only decades after Jesus left, and made an impact on the Jewish society since it refered to Jesus as JHVH. Mark supports the other synoptic gospels. The reason we don't have much written material to rely on from the first century is that the books were captured and destroyed for the most part. All we have to rely on today is mostly material within the church, the Nag Hamadi find and Qumran finds. We will probably find more compelling evidence of the Jesus movement later too.


reply posted on 18-5-2008 @ 08:42 PM by Conspiriology
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And that's a good point you mention. Why did they bring healing oils to the tomb and not embalment oils? Seams a little strange to give medicine to a dead man...


The oils they brought were to prepare the body to be intombed.

DEATH OF JESUS

Two aspects of Jesus' death have been the source of great controversy, namely, the nature of the wound in his side (4,6) and the cause of his death after only several hours on the cross. (13-17).

The gospel of John describes the piercing of Jesus' side and emphasizes the sudden flow of blood and water. (1) Some authors have interpreted the flow of water to be ascites (12) or urine, from an abdominal midline perforation of the bladder. (15) However, the Greek word (pleura (32,35,,36) used by John clearly denoted laterality and often implied the ribs. (6,32,36)

Therefore, it seems probable that the wound was in the thorax and well away from the abdominal midline.

Although the side of the wound was not designated by John, it traditionally has been depicted on the right side. (4) Supporting this traditions is the fact that a large flow of blood would be more likely with a perforation of the distended and thin-walled right atrium or ventricle than the thick-walled and contracted left ventricle. Although the side of the wound may never be established with certainty, the right seems more probable than the left.

Some of the skepticism in accepting John's description has arisen from the difficulty in explaining, with medical accuracy, the flow of both blood and water. Part of this difficulty has been based on the assumption that the blood appeared first, then the water. However, in the ancient Greek, the order of words generally denoted prominence and not necessarily a time sequence. (37) Therefore, it seems likely that John was emphasizing the prominence of blood rather than its appearance preceding the water.

Therefore, the water probably represented serous pleural and pericardial fluid, (5-7,11) and would have preceded the flow of blood and been smaller in volume than the blood. Perhaps in the setting of hypovolemia and impending acute heart failure, pleural and pericardial effusions may have developed and would have added to the volume of apparent water. (5,11) The blood, in contrast, may have originated from the right atrium or the right ventricle or perhaps from a hemopericardium. (5,7,11)

Jesus' death after only three to six hours on the cross surprised even Pontius Pilate. (1) The fact that Jesus cried out in a loud voice and then bowed his head and died suggests the possibility of a catastrophic terminal event. One popular explanation has been that Jesus died of cardiac rupture. In the setting of the scourging and crucifixion, with associated hypovolemia, hypoxemia, and perhaps and altered coagulable state, friable non-infective thrombotic vegetations could have formed on the aortic or mitral valve. These then could have dislodged and embolized into the coronary circulation and thereby produced an acute transmural myocardial infarction. Thrombotic valvular vegetations have been reported to develop under analogous acute traumatic conditions. (39) Rupture of the left ventricular free wall may occur, though uncommonly, in the first few hours following infarction. (40)

However, another explanation may be more likely. Jesus' death may have been hastened simply by his state of exhaustion and by the severity of the scourging, with its resultant blood loss and preshock state. (7) The fact that he could not carry his patibulum supports this interpretation. The actual cause of Jesus' death, like that of other crucified victims, may have been multifactorial and related primarily to hypovolemic shock, exhaustion asphyxia, and perhaps acute heart failure. (2,3,5-7,10,11) A fatal cardiac arrhythmia may have accounted for the apparent catastrophic terminal event.

Thus, it remains unsettled whether Jesus died of cardiac rupture or of cardiorespiratory failure. However, the important feature may be not how he died but rather whether he died. Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, probably perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death. Accordingly, interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge

www.cfpeople.org...




- Con


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 03:58 AM by Neo Christian Mystic
I never understood the need for explaining the flow of water from the wound in his side where his thorax was pierced. It's what happens when you have a punctured longue. No need to pierce the bladder or find cunning explanations to explain it otherwise. He had a punctured longue, period. Probably caused by someone hitting his back with a stick. You don't even need to break a bone, all you need is to fill your longues all up with air and have someone hit you hard in your back. Left untreated it leads to the certain death, but if treated, the wound needs a couple of days to heal.

Joseph of Arimathea and the others rushed with the body to a hidden tomb, and they brought healing oils and salvation, not the typical oils you would see in embalment, but oils and such to heal wounds etc.

Here's the scenario. Jesus preached that whoever lay down his life for another has the greatest love. The centurions at the foot of the cross saw how Jesus struggled at the cross, and punctured longue being a common injury at the battle field, they recognised this. Shortly after the centurion had proclaimed that Jesus was surely the Son of God, he pierced Jesus in the thorax, healing him from his punctured longue. The body is then bought by Joseph of Arimathea who hides the body in a tomb, where Jesus is further treated for his wounds. No mention of pale skin, purple blood, rigor mortis or any other indications of death, only an indication of a punctured longue and general bloodloss and trauma. His short time on the cross indicates that he didn't die from aphyxiation due to the cross itself, but that he ceased breathing because of the state of his longues.


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 08:15 AM by queenofangels_17
reply to post by saint4God


The TRUTH is Jesus did not die on the cross. Christians profess to love Jesus, if they really loved Jesus and are his followers, then they should study this piece of Gospel, which was preached to the Children of Israel by the true disciples of Jesus before it was denounced by the Council of Nicea in 325. Those who received and believed this Gospel, were sealed with the seal of the Living God, blessed be the Holy Name of God, who guides to the truth whoever wills to be guided.

So all the disciples and apostles departed by fours and by sixes and went their way according to the word of Jesus. There remained with Jesus he who writes; whereupon Jesus, weeping, said: "O Barnabas, it is necessary that I should reveal to you great secrets, which, after that I shall be departed from the world, you shall reveal to it." Then answered he that writes, weeping, and said: "Suffer me to weep, O master, and other men also, for that we are sinners. And you, that are an holy one and prophet of God, it is not fitting for you to weep so much."

Jesus answered: "Believe me, Barnabas that I cannot weep as much as I ought. For if men had not called me God, I should have seen God here as he will be seen in paradise, and should have been safe not to fear the day of judgment. But God knows that I am innocent, because never have I harboured thought to be held more than a poor slave. No, I tell you that if I had not been called God I should have been carried into paradise when I shall depart from the world, whereas now I shall not go thither until the judgment. Now you see if I have cause to weep.

Know, O Barnabas, that for this I must have great persecution, and shall be sold by one of my disciples for thirty pieces of money. Whereupon I am sure that he who shall sell me shall be slain in my name, for that God shall take me up from the earth, and shall change the appearance of the traitor so that every one shall believe him to be me; nevertheless, when he dies an evil death, I shall abide in that dishonour for a long time in the world. But when Muhammad shall come, the sacred Messenger of God, that infamy shall be taken away. And this shall God do because I have confessed the truth of the Messiah who shall give me this reward, that I shall be known to be alive and to be a stranger to that death of infamy."

Then answered he that writes: "O master, tell me who is that wretch, for I fain would choke him to death." "Hold your peace," answered Jesus, "for so God wills, and he cannot do otherwise but see you that when my mother is afflicted at such an event you tell her the truth, in order that she may be comforted." Then answered he who writes: "All this will I do, O master, if God please."

Jesus' words came true, for a long time he has been known to die an infamous death in the cross until the advent of the Prophet Muhammad who shed light to the truth, and Jesus was known to Muslims to be a true servant of God, not God or son of God but one of His holy prophets who was saved from the hands of the Children of Israel who wanted to kill him.

The Prophet Muhammad was referred to by Jesus in his Gospel as the Messenger of God and the Messiah who will come after him. Jesus has the title Messiah in the Holy Quran, and Muslims believe that Jesus is a Messiah, a savior sent to the Children of Israel, but the fact that Jesus also referred to the Prophet Muhammad as Messiah is not contradicting the Holy Quran since according to the Holy Quran, the Prophet Muhammad will bring salvation to ALL nations. In truth, a close scrutiny of the Torah will bring us to the conclusion that the Messiah prophesied in the Holy Scriptures pertains to the coming of the Prophet of Islam, and that the main theme of Jesus' Gospel, Repent! The Kingdom of God is coming refers to the Prophet Muhammad and Islam as the Kingdom of God, which was taken from the Children of Israel for rejecting Jesus and all the Holy Prophets sent to it.

Jesus said to the Jews: "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (From the KJV Bible, Matthew 21:43)"

The fruits being the worship of the ONE TRUE GOD, who is blessed forever more.

Jesus has this to say of FAITH :

Faith is a seal whereby God seals his elect: which seal he gave to his Messenger, at whose hands every one that is elect has received the faith. For even as God is one, so is the faith one. Wherefore God, having created before all things his Messenger, gave to him before aught else the faith which is as it were a likeness of God and of all that God has done and said. And so the faithful by faith sees all things, better than one sees with his eyes; because the eyes can err; no they do almost always err; but faith errs never, for it has for foundation God and his word. Believe me that by faith are saved all the elect of God. And it is certain that without faith it is impossible for any one to please God.

This Faith is Islam, (Surrender of One's will to God), which as revealed in the Holy Quran is the Faith of all the Prophets and Abraham and his sons.

2:130 And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

2:135 And they say: Be Jews or Christians, then ye will be rightly guided. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Nay, but (we follow) the religion of Abraham, the upright, and he was not of the idolaters.

3:3 He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

3:31 Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

To the truth seekers, God is waiting to guide you...

www.sacred-texts.com...


There is ONLY ONE GOD. Praise be to God!


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 10:30 AM by queenofangels_17
reply to post by saint4God


saint4God,

Jesus died but not on the cross. He died when it was almost near the end of the world as God promised him. God saved him from this ignominious death on the cross as He always save His messengers, whose duty is only to deliver the message. It's not their duty to compel people to believe, but God guides whomever He wills to guide to the truth.

2:213 Mankind were one community, and Allah sent (unto them) Prophets as bearers of good tidings and as warners, and revealed therewith the Scripture with the truth that it might judge between mankind concerning that wherein they differed. And only those unto whom (the Scripture) was given differed concerning it, after clear proofs had come unto them, through hatred one of another. And Allah by His will guided those who believe unto the truth of that concerning which they differed. Allah guideth whom He will unto a Straight path.

3:99 Say: O People of the Scripture! Why drive ye back believers from the way of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, when ye are witnesses (to Allah's guidance)? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.

I invited you to the TRUTH, as God has revealed. It's up to you if you wish to believe the writings found in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, which are not the truth, but the version of truth as the Church at the Council of Niccea chose to feed the people. If these are true gospels it will lead to the worship of the ONE TRUE GOD as the only way to salvation, but seeing that it turns away people from God, and breaking the first commandment which God has commanded to Moses is proof that this is the teaching of Satan.

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said : O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers there will be no helpers.

4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture ; they slew him not for certain.

God himself bear witness that Jesus did not die FOR CERTAIN. Whose witness will you accept? When the last trumpet sound you will all know the Truth, but it will be too late. On this Day, no soul can avail the help of another, if you're putting your trust in Jesus dying for your sins, and the clear proof has now come to you that he did NOT. Then you are still in your sins.

4:166 But Allah (Himself) testifieth concerning that which He hath revealed unto thee; in His knowledge hath He revealed it; and the Angels also testify. And Allah is sufficient witness.

6:40 Say: Can ye see yourselves, if the punishment of Allah come upon you or the Hour come upon you, calling upon other than Allah? Do ye then call (for help) to any other than Allah? (Answer that) if ye are truthful.

On this Day, Jesus and his disciples will be a witness against the Children of Israel.

16:84 And (bethink you of) the day when We raise up of every nation a witness, then there is no leave for disbelievers, nor are they allowed to make amends.

61:6 And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was (revealed) before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is Muhammad (the Praised One). Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

The HOLY QURAN, the Final Testament of God to mankind is God's witness to mankind until the Day of Resurrection. Crookedness cannot enter it from above or from below, a guarded tablet and kept pure since its first revelation 1400 years ago.

18:1 Praise be to Allah Who hath revealed the Scripture unto His slave, and hath not placed therein any crookedness.

2:2 This is the scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).

2:121 Those unto whom We have given the scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whoso disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the losers.

13:31 Had it been possible for a Lecture to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn asunder, or the dead to speak, (this Quran would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command. Do not those who believe know that, had Allah willed, He could have guided all mankind? As for those who disbelieve, disaster ceaseth not to strike them because of what they do, or it dwelleth near their home until the threat of Allah come to pass. Lo! Allah faileth not to keep the tryst.

17:9 Lo! this Quran guideth unto that which is straightest, and giveth tidings unto the believers who do good works that theirs will be a great reward.

42:17 Allah it is who hath revealed the Scripture with truth, and the balance. How canst thou know? It may be that the Hour is nigh.

22:78 And strive for Allah with the endeavor which is His right. He hath chosen you and hath not laid upon you in religion any hardship; the faith of your father Abraham (is yours). He hath named you Muslims of old time and in this (Scripture), that the messenger may be a witness against you, and that ye may be witnesses against mankind. So establish worship, pay the poor due, and hold fast to Allah. He is your Protecting Friend. A blessed Patron and a blessed Helper!

******

The consequence of disbelieving in God's revelations :

www.islam.tc...

www.islam.tc...

www.islam.tc...

www.islam.tc...

www.islam.tc...

May God guide you if you are really a believer of God and the Last Day.


reply posted on 10-7-2008 @ 02:24 PM by shihulud
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Now was he dead or had he simply stopped breathing? Let's say that during the beating and torture he endured one of his longues were punctured. This could explain how he didn't say anything when Pilate judge him,
According to John 18 & 19 Jesus did speak to Pilate.

how he didn't manage to carry the cross and finally how he only lasted three hours on the cross until he stopped breathing. Normally victims of crucifiction hung for days until they died from exhaustion and bloodloss.


I am going to have to disagree with the notion that Jesus was on the cross for 3 hours - Jesus was supposed to have died at the ninth hour, meaning 3 pm, as agreed by Mark and Matthew although there is a discrepancy on when he was crucified. Mark states that Jesus was crucified at 9 am while John states that at noon Jesus was still with Pilate - which puts a bit of a spanner in the works for it being dark at noon. So if Jesus was still with Pilate at noon and he still had to walk to Golgotha and get nailed up then Jesus would have only been on the cross around 2 hours before supposedly dying. No wonder Pilate was amazed that Jesus was already dead when Joseph went to collect the body although I don't see why Pilate would really care as he found Jesus not guilty anyway.
So it would seem to me that Jesus was still alive when Joseph went to collect the body and him and Nicodemus healed Jesus in his private garden tomb and then took him away before the Pharisees decided to place a guard at the tomb (who seemed to have vanished when Mary Magdalene et al went on the Sunday morning). It also seems a bit odd that Mary M thought that Jesus was the gardener as she didn't recognize him which could mean that Jesus was in disguise and STILL ALIVE.



G
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