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Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
But let's look for further proof that Jesus didn't die on the cross. There's a very peculiar sentance in the Gospel where Jesus regrets his destiny and asks God to change his destiny:
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
and
Mark 14:36 "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."
and finally
Luke 22:42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."
Jesus regrets his destiny and asks God for redemption. Was this what happened? Did God take the cup of destiny (the Holy Grail) away from him?
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Reading the first chapter of the Gospel of John, I find it impossible for Jesus to die.
Originally posted by 24thchance
Of course he died, there are tons of the best evidence available.
1st- the eyewitnesses, they are the best proof of anything.
Originally posted by 24thchance
2nd-the soldiers that guarded him. If you fell asleep on duty then it's sure death to you.
Originally posted by 24thchance
3rd- Blood?water gushed out after they checked to see if he was really dead( I would suppose it would be hard to fool a roman guard who did this everyday, they'd know all the tricks).
Originally posted by 24thchance
4th-the fact that 12 disciples who were willing to quit on Jesus right after he died, all of a sudden became bold and courageous and were willing to give their very lives, for what ? a lie?. I sure would'nt risk my life for something I was'ant sure of!!!!
Originally posted by 24thchance
5th-the veil that was ripped in 2 parts. It was a very thick curtain weighing hundreads of pounds, incredibly hard to rip even if the jewish priests let you, and you had a big knife. Plus it was ripped from top to bottom, not the way i'd do it.
These are only 5 of the many proof,s that we humans killed King Jesus!!!
Originally posted by Iasion
There were no eye-witnesses to Jesus.
Merely characters in anonymous books.
Modern NT scholars agree not one book of the NT was written by anyone who ever met any Jesus.
The Gospels were all anonymous works, whose titles were added later - they are not by any witnesses to anything.
Originally posted by Neiby
Jesus did not die. One must have lived in the first place in order to die. Provide some incontrovertible evidence of his existence and we can continue the discussion.
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
And that's a good point you mention. Why did they bring healing oils to the tomb and not embalment oils? Seams a little strange to give medicine to a dead man...
DEATH OF JESUS
Two aspects of Jesus' death have been the source of great controversy, namely, the nature of the wound in his side (4,6) and the cause of his death after only several hours on the cross. (13-17).
The gospel of John describes the piercing of Jesus' side and emphasizes the sudden flow of blood and water. (1) Some authors have interpreted the flow of water to be ascites (12) or urine, from an abdominal midline perforation of the bladder. (15) However, the Greek word (pleura (32,35,,36) used by John clearly denoted laterality and often implied the ribs. (6,32,36)
Therefore, it seems probable that the wound was in the thorax and well away from the abdominal midline.
Although the side of the wound was not designated by John, it traditionally has been depicted on the right side. (4) Supporting this traditions is the fact that a large flow of blood would be more likely with a perforation of the distended and thin-walled right atrium or ventricle than the thick-walled and contracted left ventricle. Although the side of the wound may never be established with certainty, the right seems more probable than the left.
Some of the skepticism in accepting John's description has arisen from the difficulty in explaining, with medical accuracy, the flow of both blood and water. Part of this difficulty has been based on the assumption that the blood appeared first, then the water. However, in the ancient Greek, the order of words generally denoted prominence and not necessarily a time sequence. (37) Therefore, it seems likely that John was emphasizing the prominence of blood rather than its appearance preceding the water.
Therefore, the water probably represented serous pleural and pericardial fluid, (5-7,11) and would have preceded the flow of blood and been smaller in volume than the blood. Perhaps in the setting of hypovolemia and impending acute heart failure, pleural and pericardial effusions may have developed and would have added to the volume of apparent water. (5,11) The blood, in contrast, may have originated from the right atrium or the right ventricle or perhaps from a hemopericardium. (5,7,11)
Jesus' death after only three to six hours on the cross surprised even Pontius Pilate. (1) The fact that Jesus cried out in a loud voice and then bowed his head and died suggests the possibility of a catastrophic terminal event. One popular explanation has been that Jesus died of cardiac rupture. In the setting of the scourging and crucifixion, with associated hypovolemia, hypoxemia, and perhaps and altered coagulable state, friable non-infective thrombotic vegetations could have formed on the aortic or mitral valve. These then could have dislodged and embolized into the coronary circulation and thereby produced an acute transmural myocardial infarction. Thrombotic valvular vegetations have been reported to develop under analogous acute traumatic conditions. (39) Rupture of the left ventricular free wall may occur, though uncommonly, in the first few hours following infarction. (40)
However, another explanation may be more likely. Jesus' death may have been hastened simply by his state of exhaustion and by the severity of the scourging, with its resultant blood loss and preshock state. (7) The fact that he could not carry his patibulum supports this interpretation. The actual cause of Jesus' death, like that of other crucified victims, may have been multifactorial and related primarily to hypovolemic shock, exhaustion asphyxia, and perhaps acute heart failure. (2,3,5-7,10,11) A fatal cardiac arrhythmia may have accounted for the apparent catastrophic terminal event.
Thus, it remains unsettled whether Jesus died of cardiac rupture or of cardiorespiratory failure. However, the important feature may be not how he died but rather whether he died. Clearly, the weight of historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead before the wound to his side was inflicted and supports the traditional view that the spear, thrust between his right ribs, probably perforated not only the right lung but also the pericardium and heart and thereby ensured his death. Accordingly, interpretations based on the assumption that Jesus did not die on the cross appear to be at odds with modern medical knowledge
www.cfpeople.org...
Originally posted by queenofangels_17
The TRUTH is Jesus did not die on the cross.
Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus died but not on the cross.
According to John 18 & 19 Jesus did speak to Pilate.
Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Now was he dead or had he simply stopped breathing? Let's say that during the beating and torture he endured one of his longues were punctured. This could explain how he didn't say anything when Pilate judge him,
how he didn't manage to carry the cross and finally how he only lasted three hours on the cross until he stopped breathing. Normally victims of crucifiction hung for days until they died from exhaustion and bloodloss.