Did Jesus really die?

Originally posted by saint4God
These faiths do want you to believe that the Bible is right where it says he existed, performed miracles and was a great teacher, but that the Bible was wrong on the death and resurrection part.

What does the gospel say about Jesus dying? There are many peculiar things surrounding the alledged death of Jesus that makes one speculate whether or not he did infact die. For instance, Pilate couldn't believe Jesus died so soon, so he asked the centurion who confirmed his death, allthough he had only been hanging for three hours and even received special treatment from the guards. Normal procedure would be to break the bones of the victim to ensure he wouldn't survive. In other words, we only have one person's testimony about the alledged death of Jesus. A Roman centurion who even gave Jesus special treatment. And the alledged proof of Jesus being dead, is nothing but an indication that Jesus suffered from a punctured longue. Water doesn't go into the bloodstream uppon death. The water that flowed from Jesus' chest comes from condence in the air leaving the longue and into the thorax/chest. The blood would be from the wound itself. Ask any doctor. When presented with the evidence presented, no doctor could ever be able to announce him dead. Period.

And to add to this, a wealthy and influential Jew was given the corpus, eventhough normal procedure would have been to cremate the body outside the city walls. He wasn't handed over to the family, probably because they couldn't afford to pay for it. However Joseph of Arimathea had the means nessasary and was given the body which he right away brought to a tomb together with some other people.

Luke 24:5..."Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.'"

When did Jesus ever say he was to be killed? Never. He said he would be lifted up or crucified, nothing else. Reading the first chapter of the Gospel of John, I find it impossible for Jesus to die. How can God die?

Originally posted by Vector J
On the whole 'blood and water' thing, I was told years ago that this effect could be achieved from the blood separating from the plasma it flows in, which I was told happens after death.

Well this isn't true. Below you can read what happens uppon death:

From Answers.com on "what does blood do upon death":
- Your blood stops flowing.
- Without oxygen the blood turns blue, causing the dead to look pale.
- The blood will be drained out when embalmed for burial.

From Wikipedia on "the signs of death, strongly indicating that a person is no longer alive":
- Pallor mortis, paleness which happens almost instantaneously (in the 15–120 minutes after the death)
- Algor mortis, the reduction in body temperature following death. This is generally a steady decline until matching ambient temperature
- Rigor mortis, the limbs of the corpse become stiff (Latin rigor) and difficult to move or manipulate
- Livor mortis, a settling of the blood in the lower (dependent) portion of the body
- Decomposition, the reduction into simpler forms of matter

Blood mixed with water flowing from a hole in the chest indicates a punctured longue, nothing else.

John 19:32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.

The text clearly says that there was a sudden flow of blood and water, this indicates that it came from the thorax of a patient with a punctured longue. Had the soldier pierced a vein or even the aorta or the heart such a flow of blood would be impossible if the person was already dead. Uppon cardiac arrest the blood pressure drops to nothing and you will see no flowing blood or water for that matter.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


Well, everyone may have merely thought that Jesus was dead and the reality is he died shortly after being taken off the cross...I make no claim that the Bible is 100% literally true, even though I am a Christian.

Originally posted by Neiby
Jesus did not die. One must have lived in the first place in order to die. Provide some incontrovertible evidence of his existence and we can continue the discussion.

There are substantial amounts of evidence that Jesus actually did exist as a human being. He was a scholar of the time, that is on record. Do some research and you will find the evidence for yourself. All it takes is legwork.

Deny Ignorance.

DTOX X

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
What does the gospel say about Jesus dying?

Jesus foretold here:

"In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" - Luke 13:33

And fulfilled here:

"With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last." - Mark 15:37

"And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!" - Mark 15:39

Do you think the Pharisees (and other Jews) were easily satisfied that the law was fulfilled here?:

"The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."- John 19:7

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
When presented with the evidence presented, no doctor could ever be able to announce him dead.

No doctor would pronounce anyone dead without seeing and examining the person for him/herself. What doctor present did you ask?

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
When did Jesus ever say he was to be killed? Never.

How about here?:

"Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Luke 9:21

Also here:

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again." - Mark 8:31

And here:

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Matthew 16:21

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Reading the first chapter of the Gospel of John, I find it impossible for Jesus to die.

Aha! The stigma is revealed. I can totally appreciate this acknowledgement.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
How can God die?

A part of God died. The part that took on flesh and for a moment all the sins of mankind. When he died, the debt was paid. When he said "It is finished", the word recorded was "Tetelestai" which is also a financial term that means "The Debit is Paid In Full".

www.zondervan.com...

Now Jesus, being the son of God didn't owe a debt. He was sinless. The man who knew no sin became sin for us. We owed the debt. When he said "it is finished", he was letting us know that indeed his payment was acceptable. If Jesus did not die, then man has no means of redemption, there is no saving grace, and the Bible is meaningless. This is why it is important for opposition to declare Jesus did not die.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by saint4God]

John 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

How can such a man die?

And what about who he conciders dead:

Matthew 8:21 Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

Jesus was calling unbelievers dead. Believers he called living.

And what does Jesus say sustains life?

Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

The original meaning of spirit or Gr. pneuma is simply "breath". We learn this from the story about the creation of Adam. In order to turn Adam into a living spirit, God breathed the spirit of life into his nostrils. Likeways we learn about the spirit of life in the judgement of the Flood: Ge 7:22 "of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life , died". Thus it says in the gospel that Jesus "gave up his spirit" on the cross. I.e. he stopped breathing. But his blood flowed. The air pressure inside his chest made it impossible for him to draw his breath due to a punctured longue. By piercing his thorax the air pressure would drop and it would be atleast possible for Jesus to draw his breath again, i.e. regain his spirit.

Did Jesus really die? An interesting question which I will rhetorically answer with another question: Did Jesus really live?

The Gnostics were the original Christians and they were fervently anti-material, believing in “Christ Consciousness” and the Kingdom of God within. The Gnostics focused on attaining “gnosis” or spiritual knowledge. They refuted claims of blasphemy from the orthodoxy, stating they were the blasphemers. They said the orthodoxy did “not know who Christ is” and read the Bible, especially Genesis too literally, missing the deeper meaning. Orthodox Christians insisted that Jesus Christ was an historical personage who came in the flesh, had 12 apostles, performed miracles, died on the cross, and was resurrected. The Gnostics insisted that their Christ could never take human form.

“Christianity began as Gnosticism, refaced with falsehoods concerning a series of facts alleged to have been historical, but which are demonstrably mythical. By which I do not mean mythical as exaggerations or perversions of historic truth, but belonging to the pre-extant Mythos … It is obvious that the Roman Church remained Gnostic at the beginning of the second century, and for some time afterwards. Marcion, the great Gnostic, did not separate from it until about the year 136 A.D. Tatian did not break with it until long after that. In each case the cause of quarrel was the same. They left the Church that was setting up the fraud of Historic Christianity.” -Gerald Massey, “Gnostic and Historic Christianity”

“So Gnosticism was around long before so-called Orthodox Christianity. The conspirators used the word ‘Docetism’ to refer to those who refused to believe in the incarnation of Jesus. The earliest Gnostic-Christians were not even aware of claims that the Christ incarnated in Jesus.” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (48)

Unbeknownst to the Gnostics (the original Christians), so-called Orthodox Christians like Pliny, the Roman Piso family and others began to propagate the idea that Jesus Christ was a real person. Soon under Roman law the greatest heresy became the unacceptance of Jesus as being a historical figure. Bishop and patriarch of Alexandria, St. Athanasius wrote, “should we understand sacred writ according to the letter, we should fall into the most enormous blasphemies.” In other words, it is a most enormous sin to read the Bible literally!

“The Docetae sects, for example, are supposed to have held that the transactions of
the gospel narrative did occur, but in a phantasmagoria of unreality. This,
however, is but a false mode of describing the position of those who denied that the
Christ could be incarnated and become human to suffer and die upon the cross. The
Christians who report the beliefs of the Gnostics, Docetae, and others, always assume
the actual history and then try to explain the non-human interpretation as an
heretical denial of the alleged facts. But the docetic interpretation was first, was prehistorical.” -Gerald Massey, “Gnostic and Historic Christianity”

The Brotherhood created the term “Docetism” to pigeon-hole Gnostics and Pagan practitioners inside the kingdom. The Old Testament stories had long existed all over the ancient world but were understood to be metaphorical. For instance the Bible’s first man was “Adam,” while in Egypt “Atum” was the first man, in Babylon he was “Adamu,” in India he was “Adima” and he was always warned against eating the fruit of immortality from the Tree of Life. Like the Bible’s “Eve,” in Tahiti, the first woman “Ivi,” was made from the first man’s bones. Like the Bible’s Cain and Abel, the Tonga creation story says “the son of the first man killed his brother.”

“The Hindu version of the first couple was of Adima and Heva, hundreds if
not thousands of years before the Hebraic version, as has been firmly pointed out by
Hindus to Christian missionaries for centuries.” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (131)

Just like the Tower of Babel, there is a site in Fiji where Fijians claim to have built a tower to the moon to see if it was inhabited. Other versions of the Tower of Babel story are found the world over from Mexico to India. The creation myth as known to the Marquesans in Polynesia mirrors the Biblical version with a serpent, Tree of Life, the fall, and everything. The Polynesians have been cut off from the rest of the world for over 12,000 years, yet their story is almost identical.

In the Hindu Somadeva Bhatta, Saktideva was swallowed by a huge fish, and eventually came out unhurt. In the Grecian myth, Hercules is said to have
been swallowed by a whale and laid for three days in his entrails before emerging. Do these remind you of Jonah and the whale? Did you know Sumerian tablets speak of E.DIN as “The Abode of the Righteous Ones” just as the Bible’s Garden of Eden? King Sargon of Sumeria was said to have been set adrift in a basket down a river by his mother 4500 years ago. This is the same story the Bible tells about Moses, but unbeknownst to most Christians, the same goes for Mises in Syria, Minos in Crete, Manou in India, and many more.

“‘Mises’ is found in Syria, where he was pulled out of a basket floating in a
river. Mises also had tablets of stone upon which laws were written, and a rod with
which he did miracles, including parting waters and leading his army across the
sea. In addition, ‘Manes the lawgiver’ took the stage in Egypt, and ‘Minos’ was
the Cretan reformer. Jacolliot traces the original Moses to the Indian Manou: ‘This name of Manou, or Manes . . . is not a substantive, applying to an individual man; its Sanskrit signification is the man, par excellence, the legislator. It is a title aspired to by all the leaders of men in antiquity.’” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (169)

[edit on 3-4-2008 by freight tomsen]

“There is no historical evidence for the existence of a man called Moses except in the
texts produced by the Levites and other writings and opinions stimulated by those texts … the official background to ‘Moses’ and his name have no historical basis. Nothing was known about the ‘Moses’ story, or the ‘plagues’ inflicted upon the Egyptians, until the Levites of Babylon wrote Exodus centuries after it was supposed to have happened. All the animals of Egypt were killed three times according to the story! What did they do, die and immediately remanifest? There was no murder of the first born of Egypt and so the Feast of the Passover has no historical basis, it was created as a result of a story invented by the Levites. Their references to the lamb’s blood on the doors is code for the ancient symbolism of the lamb. There is no official book in Hebrew which makes any mention of the Pentateuch (the laws of Moses) before the Levites went to Babylon. As for the Israelites being captive in Egypt, even Deuteronomy describes them as ‘strangers’, not slaves, in this period. So where did the name Moses come from? Every initiated person who attained the highest rank in the Egyptian mystery schools was called a Muse, Mose or ... Moses. Manetho, the Egyptian historian of the third century BC, quoted by the Jewish historian, Josephus, says that he was a priest at Heliopolis or ON (Place of the Sun), and that afterwards he took the name of Mosheh or Moses. The word Moses means: he who has been taken away, he who has been put out from the waters, who has been made a missionary, an ambassador, an apostle. The Chief Priest in the Egyptian temples was called EOVE or EOVA, hence the emergence of the name Jehovah, and the Hebrew language is really the sacred language of the Egyptian mystery schools.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (83-4)

Long before the Christian era the Greek god Dionysus was said to turn water into wine as well. The Scandinavian god Odin and Marsyas of Mindanao were said to be hung on a tree and stabbed with a spear just as Jesus was said to be crucified and stabbed by Longinus’ spear. Vishnu, Wittoba, and Adonis were all crucified saviors stabbed in the side as well. Christ, meaning “the anointed one” was a term applied to Attis, Adonis, Tammuz, Osiris, Krishna and many other pre-Christian gods. Even the name “Christ” is a variation on KRST (Horus, The Anointed One) or Krishna (commonly spelt “Christna” or “Christos” in Bengali) thousands of years before Jesus supposedly walked the Earth.

“The word Kristo and its derivations, Krst, Krist, Kristo, Khyst, and Krish-na, all appeared in every ancient religious system and showed the original Kristo concept was believed to be the personal and invisible mediator and guide between God and everything spiritual in man. The Krist concept has been an ancient religious tradition continually suppressed by the Catholic church through the centuries.” -Tony Bushby, “The Bible Fraud”

“At the Council of Nicea were not only Christian leaders from Alexandria,
Antioch, Athens, Jerusalem and Rome but also the leaders of the many other cults,
sects and religions, including those of Apollo, Demeter/Ceres,
Dionysus/Bacchus/Iasios, Janus, Jupiter/Zeus, Oannes/Dagon, Osiris and Isis, and
‘Sol Invictus,’ the Invincible Sun, the object of Constantine’s devotion. The purpose
of this council was to unify the various competing cults under one universal or
‘catholic’ church, which, of course, would be controlled by Constantine and Rome.
As noted, Rome claimed the ultimate authority because it purported to be founded
upon the ‘rock of Peter.’ Thus, the statue of Jupiter in Rome was converted into ‘St.
Peter,’ whose phony bones were subsequently installed in the Vatican. In a typical
religion-making move, the gods of these other cults were subjugated under the new
god and changed into ‘apostles’ and ‘saints’ … As stated, it is maintained that during the Nicene Council the names Jesus and Christ were put together for the first time in the phrase ‘Jesus Christ’ or ‘Christ Jesus,’ uniting two of the major factions, with Jesus representing the Hesus of the Druids, Joshua/Jesus of the Israelites, Horus/Iusa of the Egyptians and IES/Iesios of the Dionysians/Samothracians, and Christ representing the Krishna/Christos of India, the Anointed of the Jews and KRST of Egypt, among others. It is thus alleged that the phrase ‘Jesus Christ,’ which had never been a name, does not appear in Greek or Latin authors prior to the first Council of Nicea.” -Acharya S., “The Christ Conspiracy” (236-7)

There were dozens of historians who lived in the Mediterranean throughout the supposed life of Jesus, Mary and Joseph: Aulus Perseus, Columella, Justus of Tiberius, Livy, Lucarus, Luctus Florus, Petronius, Phaedrus, Philo Judaeus, Phlegon, Plutarch, Pomponius Mela, Rufus Curtius, Quintillan, Quintus Curtius, Seneca, Silus Italicus, Theon of Smyrna, Valerius Flaccus, Valerius Maximus - None of them so much as mentioned Jesus, his family or his followers. Wouldn’t you think someone who was immaculately conceived, who performed miracles, was revered by thousands and hated by thousands more, someone who was crucified for all our sins then resurrected from death, wouldn’t he be mentioned at least once outside the bible?

On the other hand, I also like the time traveler notion. That people from our future traveled back in time to render the Roman guards unconscious, take the body from the tomb, and revive it using advanced medical techniques. These, of course, would be the strangers at the tomb encountered by Mary Magdalene. They may also have been in league with Joseph of Arimathea, who may have been a time traveler, himself.

In that way, Jesus's Ascension was him being beamed up into the time ship rather than Heaven, and his "return" to Earth as prophesied in Revelation would not be so much a reincarnation, but rather the time travelers bringing him forward into the future.

Although not backed up as much by actual scripture as the resurrection via the demon Beelzebub story, it's just as cool.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by Nohup]

“There is no credible evidence whatsoever for the existence of Jesus. No archaeological evidence, no written evidence, nothing. So it is with Solomon, Moses, David, Abraham, Samson and countless other biblical ‘stars’. All we have are the Levite texts and the Gospel stories in their various versions. So desperate did the religious manipulators become to cross reference ‘Jesus’ that they inserted a pathetically obvious addition into the works of the ‘Jewish’ historian, Josephus, to support the unsupportable. More than 40 writers are known to have chronicled the events of these lands during the alleged time of Jesus, but they don’t mention him. A guy who did all the things that he was supposed to have done and no-one records it? Philo lived throughout the supposed life of Jesus and wrote a history of the Judeans which covered the whole of this period. He even lived in or near Jerusalem when Jesus was said to have been born and Herod was supposed to have killed the children, yet he doesn’t record any of this. He was there when Jesus is said to have made his triumphant arrival in Jerusalem and when he was crucified and rose from the dead on the third day. What does Philo say about these fantastic events? Nothing.” -David Icke, “The Biggest Secret” (100)

“No scholar believes that Osiris or Jupiter or Dionysus was an historical person promoted to the rank of a god, but exception is made only in favor of Jesus.” -Edouard Dujardin, “Ancient History of the God Jesus”

Justin Martyr (100–165AD) was the first and most distinguished Roman Catholic “apologist” of Christianity. The doctrines of the new religion were so disliked and resisted at its conception, apologists tried to smooth the waves. In “The First Apology of Justin,” he argues that Christianity should be accepted because it is already so similar to existing religions.

“When we say that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was produced without sexual union, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding the sons of Jupiter.” -Justin Martyr, “The First Apology of Justin”

Entire volumes have been written by Christians comparing Christianity with other Pagan religions. Here Justin Martyr admits the metaphorical (not literal) story of Jesus Christ is precisely analogous to pre-existing beliefs regarding Jupiter

“And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.” -Justin Martyr, “The First Apology of Justin”

Through the course of the book, Justin Martyr admits that Jesus is analogous to the sons of Jupiter, Mercury, Aesculapius, Bacchus, Hercules, Dioscuri, Perseus, and Bellerophon. He admits their immaculate conceptions, miracles, untimely deaths, and ascents into heaven as symbolically purporting the same thing. He also admits Christianity teaches the same things as poets and philosophers citing Plato, Menander, Sibyl, Hystaspes, and Stoics. Since its inception Christianity never claimed to be historical, biographical, or even original.

“The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” - US President John Adams

“It has served us well, this myth of Christ.” - Pope Leo X

“This whole affair of which we speak and preach, and which is called Gospel, has no
reference at all to any person that ever existed, or events that ever occurred upon
earth” - Rev. Robert Taylor, “The Devil’s Pulpit”

“The traditional history of Christianity is hopelessly inadequate to the facts. From our research into ancient spirituality it has become obvious that we must fundamentally revise our understanding of Christian origins in the most shocking of ways. Our conclusion, supported by a considerable body of evidence in our book, The Jesus Mysteries, is that Christianity was not a new revelation. It was a continuation of Paganism by another name. The gospel story of Jesus is not the biography of an
historical Messiah. It is a Jewish reworking of ancient Pagan myths of the dying and resurrecting Godman Osiris- Dionysus, which had been popular for centuries throughout the ancient Mediterranean.” - Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, “The Original Jesus”

Characters are often interchangeable within the Bible itself. Joseph in the Old Testament is analogous to Jesus in the New Testament. Joseph was born of a miracle birth, had 12 brothers, one of whom, Judah, suggests the sale of Joseph for 20 gold pieces. Jesus was born of a miracle birth, had 12 disciples, one of whom, Judas, who suggests the sale of Jesus for 30 gold pieces. They both began their work at 30. Are we to believe these are literal people living remarkable, coincidental, analogous existences? Or are they personifications, symbols, metaphors representing the ancients’ wealth of astrological knowledge?

“Jews do not accept Jesus as the Christ or the Messiah. They were the ones in the Middle East; it was their country, their language and their book. If they don't accept the story, there must be a reason why.” -Jordan Maxwell, “Matrix of Power”

“Nay, not only are there no proofs of the twelve tribes of Israel having ever existed,
but Herodotus, the most accurate of historians, who was in Assyria when Ezra
flourished, never mentions the Israelites at all…How is this possible?” -Madame
Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, The Secret Doctrine, vol. 3

Originally posted by saint4God
Jesus foretold here:

"In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" - Luke 13:33

The word for "die" here can also mean "sentenced to death". Gr. Apollumi. And this has to do with the Temple and the Sanhedrin. Only they could judge a man of God to death. Many if not most Jewish prophets have died outside Jerusalem so this translation is flawed. The other quotes have already been dealt with. They simply say he stopped breathing.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
When did Jesus ever say he was to be killed? Never.

How about here?:

"Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Luke 9:21

Also here:

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again." - Mark 8:31

And here:

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Matthew 16:21

To be judged to death would be the same as being killed to the Jew. If you read Paul in 2 Cor 3:6 "...not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills (apokteino), but the Spirit gives life." I.e. the Law means death since noone can live without sin and the law condemns everyone. Eventhough Gr. "apokteino" means to kill it may also mean simply segregate, do away with, abolish, and not the least deprive of spiritual life which would discribe what later happened with Jesus; from apo, meaning to separate and kteino, meaning to terminate life, not nessasarilly being put to physical death. But I have to admit I had forgotten those quotes...

Very Nice work

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
What does the gospel say about Jesus dying?

Jesus foretold here:

"In any case, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day—for surely no prophet can die outside Jerusalem!" - Luke 13:33

And fulfilled here:

"With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last." - Mark 15:37

"And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!" - Mark 15:39

Do you think the Pharisees (and other Jews) were easily satisfied that the law was fulfilled here?:

"The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."- John 19:7

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
When presented with the evidence presented, no doctor could ever be able to announce him dead.

No doctor would pronounce anyone dead without seeing and examining the person for him/herself. What doctor present did you ask?

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
When did Jesus ever say he was to be killed? Never.

How about here?:

"Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone. And he said, "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Luke 9:21

Also here:

"He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again." - Mark 8:31

And here:

"From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life." - Matthew 16:21

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
Reading the first chapter of the Gospel of John, I find it impossible for Jesus to die.

Aha! The stigma is revealed. I can totally appreciate this acknowledgement.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
How can God die?

A part of God died. The part that took on flesh and for a moment all the sins of mankind. When he died, the debt was paid. When he said "It is finished", the word recorded was "Tetelestai" which is also a financial term that means "The Debit is Paid In Full".

www.zondervan.com...

Now Jesus, being the son of God didn't owe a debt. He was sinless. The man who knew no sin became sin for us. We owed the debt. When he said "it is finished", he was letting us know that indeed his payment was acceptable. If Jesus did not die, then man has no means of redemption, there is no saving grace, and the Bible is meaningless. This is why it is important for opposition to declare Jesus did not die.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Now Jesus, being the son of God didn't owe a debt. He was sinless. The man who knew no sin became sin for us.

How about him breaking the fifth commandment over and over?

He denied a disciple to bury his father, he said Mary wasn't his mother and he demanded that his followers should leave their parents among other things. Is this to honor your parents?

[edit on 3/4/2008 by Neo Christian Mystic]

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
How about him breaking the fifth commandment over and over?

Let's check:

"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you." - Exodus 20:12

"Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." - Luke 2:51

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
He denied a disciple to bury his father,

Can you dishonor someone who is already dead? It's an interesting question. There is an Eastern Asian Religion that says "yes" but not heard of it in Christianity.

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
he said Mary wasn't his mother

Where did he say Mary was not his mother?

Are you sure he was not saying that the people he was with were also his mother and brothers (family)? This paraellels well when he was a boy at the temple stating he was "in his father's house".

Seems he took care of her, even at his death:

"When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home." - John 19:26-27

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic
and he demanded that his followers should leave their parents among other things. Is this to honor your parents?

I had left my parents. Have I dishonored them?

Secondly, leave them to do...what? And for how long?

I'm sure in your righteous judgement with what is and is not honorable in the eyes of God, you may seem qualified to assess the relationship between Jesus and his mother, but God Himself may have issue with that.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm sure in your righteous judgement with what is and is not honorable in the eyes of God, you may seem qualified to assess the relationship between Jesus and his mother, but God Himself may have issue with that.

First of all I wasn't judging. The Son of Man is the only judge, and I'm afraid he judged himself. But let's get back on topic.

What on earth is so important about Jesus being killed? I would rather use the rest of my life to ressurect him from this sorry state and rather focus on his wisdom, his mysteries and his political struggles, instead of the meaningless "he died for our sins" and how there is a new covenant with no laws, except that homos shouldn't marry or even be allowed to live. For that crap is Babylonian teachings and has nothing to do with what Jesus stood for and what his real sacrifice was. Saying he died breaks the ties between him and his family, his wife, his children, for Jesus himself said this. Saying Jesus died on the cross is like saying the sun dies when there is a solar eclipse. Jesus wasn't dead. That wasn't his sacrifice. Like Cain, bread and wine was his sacrifice. And wisdom was his way.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


You should read "the book", there's a reason for everything in it and for when things happen and for why things happen.

Saint John
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


There is way more to it than dying for our sins.... I'm sorry I didn't answer your question, but you kinda missed the point of His visit. I hope you do get it soon.

[edit on 3-4-2008 by toasted]

[edit on 3-4-2008 by toasted]

The point of his visit would be to judge the quick and the dead in power of being the Son of Man. Also to attack the Assyrians with a great army, to mention a few. Below is the origin of the misconception.

Is 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Originally posted by toasted
You should read "the book", there's a reason for everything in it and for when things happen and for why things happen.

Well I have read the Bible through and through about twenty times the last ten years. I have studied the Hebrew and Greek sources. I have sought to put the stories into historic, astrological and neighbouring religious contexts. What have you done?

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


20Times! that's quite impressive. Anyways his visit was to fulfill the Law, the scriptures and to expose the frauds and to inform us, that the only way to make it to the next world will be through a belief in Him and repentance of our sins.

Most parents have rules their children must follow in order to have harmony in the family, God has rules too.

Have you ever seen the series by walther veith? There's nothing like an in depth study of why things are by a former atheist who digs really deep to get to the truth.

Sometimes when I think about the next world, I'm hoping that God would show us how it all started and the different earth ages and who was fomenting the wars through time etc, but I now understand, that when the Lord brings in the next world, the old will fall away and be forgotten, so it doesn't look like there will be any review of earths history for those who still want to know, because we won't even remember it!

The time to understand is now, that there is war for our souls and we should figure it out. This series is one of the best I've ever seen done on The Word.

Dr. Veith

Most churches have cowtowed to the world instead of opposing it as it should have. We need a fresh look at what we are doing. I see the world as Babylon. Just look at all the idol worship, the movie stars and money and overpaid sports players etc, all the superficial crap has been bought into by many many people, to their own detriment and they don't even know it.

I must go, I have an apppointment...

IBB