From my own point of view; if Jesus was God or had the knowledge and power of God than his ability to resurrect himself as he allegedly did Lazarus seems as likely. Ofcourse there are also those who make claims that there was a clone or twin etc. who died instead.

Coming from personal experience in having had people thought I was dead after finding a cloned body is why. The Beast that was and is not and yet is could actually be a clone. The ability to clone and move yourself spiritually into another body hasn't yet been proved by known science but I have witnessed it for myself.

Jesus said you shall know them by their works; that create false miracles. There's always a chance that there's those who actually have the power and technology to clone and repair humans in a matter of seconds and minutes. As science has improved we also see these as strong possibilites if not just all fabrications and technology by aliens.

People speak of having had out of body experiences. From the story of what Jesus went through, I wouldn't doubt if he had left his body when he was flogged as the Jehovah's witnesses may claim.

Look into what people now call remote viewing with these particular events. It's also very likely you will get a wrong number and be deceived, as I myself have.

Originally posted by aleon1018
From my own point of view; if Jesus was God or had the knowledge and power of God than his ability to resurrect himself as he allegedly did Lazarus seems as likely. Ofcourse there are also those who make claims that there was a clone or twin etc. who died instead.

Absurd.

Coming from personal experience in having had people thought I was dead after finding a cloned body is why. The Beast that was and is not and yet is could actually be a clone.

Your note may not be as farfetched as it first seams. For what if scientists brought Tut Ankh Ammon and a some other old kings and emperors back to life?

Originally posted by Neo Christian Mystic

Originally posted by aleon1018
From my own point of view; if...

Absurd.

Ah, ways to tell when meaningful dialogue is over. If someone told me from their point of view the earth is flat, not only is that a valid statement but is at the very least deserving the credit of thought-processed observation. The world is round, but from my point of view as well it is flat. It's always easier to see things when you have a pair-a-digms rather than just one digm.

Jesus died and he's now reincarnated. His mark/anointment, the Christ, is here...

I just thought that introducing 2000 year old clones into a discussion over some of the most fundamental issues around the life of Jesus to be well, absurd. I'd say like our dear old friend:

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. I am satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life and with the awareness and a glimpse of the marvelous structure of the existing world, together with the devoted striving to comprehend a portion, be it ever so tiny, of the Reason that manifests itself in nature."

- Albert Einstein, The World As I See It

Jesus died.......Roman soldiers were highly trained to identify death. Roman soldiers were posted at the tomb.......any failure to perform instructed duties to the LETTER means D.E.A.T.H. Romans were very unforgiving....the Centurian in charge of the cruel killing would have made sure Jesus was thoroughly dead. He would have more than a piercing in his side.......the other persons with Jesus had their legs broken.....Jesus would have had the same. He did not because he was DEAD. The Roman soldiers would have never let any one take his body....that meant death to them.......Jesus died. He was a sacrifice for us. Read some of the Bible some time.....the story is really sad. In the end however, Jesus did what he did for us......none of us would do that for him and he did it for us thousands of years later.....simply amazing. Creation is not by chance and besides are you willing to risk eternity on thinking Jesus was a hoax? Not me .....the only Hot place I like is on a beach with scuba gear! Hell is forever and a very hot place.......

Jesus died. sorry......and he rose again.......and oh btw......he is coming back. Just keep that in the back of your mind.....when things start goin haywire...............it was all predicted. Did you know that of the past bible predictions(old testament stuff....) they have all come true. I know of no other prediction book more accurate. What would lead me to believe the rest of the book is a fake....when some of the old testament predictions have not come true yet...but all up to this time period in history has..?
Jesus died...his death was predicted and the way he died was predicted......too weird huh? Forgiveness is free.

Was it just the wind or did you just condemn me to hell? Great. Before I've written ten posts here some stifflip pentecoster comes dragging with the demons of hell! Shame on you!

I believe Joseph of Arimathea paid off the guards and brought the dying Jesus into the tomb where one of his physicans revived him.

We see how the guards were fond of wealth, how they scavenged among the cloathes and leftovers from the victims. What if Joseph of Arimathea paid a centurion a bag of gold, silver and copper in order not to break his bones, but instead release him from his suffering by piercing his chest with a well aimed hit, announce him dead and bring him down from the cross. The fact that such would lead to death for the centurion if he was caught is irrellevant as long as there is money involved and didn't Jesus himself say "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." You can say alot about the Roman legionaires, but afraid of dying they were not so your argument is flawed.

yes he died, but his name and his influence are still, today, use as a
marketing tool for the Catholic Church corporation

capitlist organisation of today are using someone to represent
them as a marketing figure, then they use a slogans and alot of other
marketing tactics and so to gain power on the market world and to try
to become the biggest corporation empire of the world.

i think the roman empire used the same tactic with jesus, after he died,
it was long before capitalist and world marketing system but it was for
the same goal...POWER..!

Big corporation can make famous a perfect nobody, to use him for
TV comercial for their product, Jesus was chosen for a 2000 years
marketing contract..! for the roman catholic church empire corporation..!

Originally posted by saint4God
Here is an interesting direction to research before debating whether he did or did not die:

Does any religious faith have any gain for suggesting that he did not die?

A common atheistic point of view is that he never existed. A common agnostic point of view is that he was not resurrected. I'll give both viewpoints as a kind of 'common sense' assumptions. So why then insist that he did not die? This should strike the investigator as odd. Answer these two questions and you'll find a very interesting trail.

[edit on 2-4-2008 by saint4God]

I am surprised no one has really taken on these questions. These questions pertain to my current studies and I would value any further input on the subject.

The questions are really quite simple, If Jesus did not die on the cross what religion would benefit the most. Judaism and Islam would benefit the most becasue they do not believe Jesus was the messiah. To insist that he did not die adds credibility to the theory of a holy bloodline and thus the return of a messiah from this bloodline that will one day unite the world. In essence what you have here is a viable story that allows the Antichrist to be seen as the Messiah.

I believe he did. It is more a matter of faith than science. I don't know exactly why I believe the story, but I do. I have gone through patches in my life where I did not believe anything.....I am much happier in the flock than outside it.

Did Jesus really die? Well perhaps you should be asking Did Jesus Really Live? You see, there is far more accurate and scientific evidence to support that Jesus the man was NOT an historical character, but rather an allegory made up from most other major religions and superstitions of the day.

I know this is a hard pill for many to swallow, but ask yourself - why do you believe Jesus was a real man?

Because your priest / pastor / etc told you so? - not fact
Because your parents told you so? - not fact
Because the Bible told you so? - not fact

So what is your evidence that he existed?

Ask yourself - what did Jesus look like? No idea? That's right, because there is NO account in the Bible OR anywhere else as to what he looked like. The image of a bearded long haired man comes from the Crusades. First century Jews depicted in him in frescoes as a young, 21 year old, short blond curly haired boy - VERY similar to Dionysus!

The Bible is NOT an academic text book, thus it cannot be used as a source to bolster an argument or theory. That's like saying lightsabres are real because I saw them being used in Starwars!

Originally posted by WatchNLearn
Did Jesus really die? Well perhaps you should be asking Did Jesus Really Live?

Well, this discussion is about whether Jesus died on the cross or not. Why would people write all those books and codexes about a historic character that didn't live?

The Bible is NOT an academic text book, thus it cannot be used as a source to bolster an argument or theory. That's like saying lightsabres are real because I saw them being used in Starwars!

Well not exactly. You see the bible consists of four different stories about a man put in historical context, explaining his life and wherabouts for about thirty years. If you take all the accounts we have later found about the life of Jesus there are more than thirty books or gospels written within a period of about two hundred years. To say there is nothing to these stories would be like saying that Mozart and Shakespeare didn't live. We have no historic accounts about them.

The real question is did he ever live???

See The pagan Roman emperor Constantine ordered the Christian bishops to meet at Nicaea in 325 A.D and create what we all know of as the bible...before people start ragging on me keep in mind that didn't happen until 60 years after Constantine died so no he didn't edit said bible...

what the first Council of Nicaea, did have was thousands and thousands of collected works...you've all heard of the other gospels that didn't make the grade right?

Anyway what non-students of history keep missing is at the time there were hundreds of self proclaimed messiahs one of the most famous at the time had hundreds of followers and was chased into some caves where the Romans let him and his followers starve to death along with all there children... If your wondering how the Romans set up archers at the entrance and shoot anyone who tried to get out...

I point out that story as Rome was very much in charge of things when the Council of Nicaea first met. so when it came time to pick a central character they had to pick one who wouldn't get all their heads chopped off...

Among scholars there is debate if Jesus was a real person or a compilation of all these other messiah just dressed down and made more PC to the empire.

Now before I get hate mail let and start a whole new debate I'd like to point out Constantine was a high priest... a sun worshiper and always was! still the church was so grateful to him for his help in establishing their church he was canonized and as a sign of respect when saints are depicted in art they are shown with a halo... that halo has its roots in the practice of sun worship and if a tribute to Constantine...

the story of how the bible got out to the masses reads like a spy thriller! the church never wanted or intended for the bible to get out! An incomplete copy was stolen and smuggled to other people in different countries... if church officials had caught the thieves we wouldn't be having this conversation at all! and for many years the church exerted great pressure to stop the King James Version from ever coming to pass.... citing when it went to press it was incomplete (as in every other page was missing...) and if you want to blame anyone for having an incomplete bible then you can blame first the thieves who never bother to steal it all and later the church who never corrected the mistake!


[edit on 3-4-2008 by DaddyBare]

Originally posted by DaddyBare
The real question is did he ever live???

See The pagan Roman emperor Constantine ordered the Christian bishops to meet at Nicaea in 325 A.D and create what we all know of as the bible...

In 325 AD the Council of Nicaea lead by the Roman Emperor decided uppon a canon among the scriptures that were already circulating. There was a bunch of gospels and writings and in order to systemise it all they voted uppon which books should be included in the planned addition to the Jewish Tannakh or Old Testament. All of the books included in the NT compilation were written down during the first century and early second century. The "original" Greek manuscripts exist to this day. However scholars argue that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, so what we rely on today are translations of the original scriptures. Very little is left from Aramaic and Hebrew sources to the Bible. This is due to the effort of the inquisitors behind the wide spread persecution against the early Christian movement, where they sought to destroy everything and everyone Christian during the first couple of centuries.

Efforts have been done to reconstruct the Aramaic source from the existing Greek gospels and fragments of earlier writings. This is refered to as the Gospel Q. Q stands for Quelle, which is French and means Source.

Hello everybody
This is my first reply to any of this sites topics. I've been a reader for some time.
I would like to have your oppinion about something that's in my head for a long time. I consider myself as a Christian. Many others also consider the same. Lets take as a fact that Jesus existed, lived, died and resurected. No problem with that. Lets also take as a fact that will return some day. My question is "what do we expect to see". Are we going to see a man in taxido? If he is going to knock our door and say "I'm Jesus" are we going to believe him? Are we going to see him in tv saying what he has to say? And many more questions about his 2nd return. How are we going to be sure that he is the person he clames to be? Will we have to put our fingers in his hands where the nails use to be in order to believe him? Or we will trust our fillings and the "energy" that will be in the air when he will arrive?
Please excuse my english for any typing errors.

Thank you

Originally posted by Dimitris
My question is "what do we expect to see".

Welcome!

Luke 17:23 Men will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.

You will know when the time is right, but please stick to the topic of this thread. Whether or not Jesus died on the cross...

Originally posted by photobug
The questions are really quite simple, If Jesus did not die on the cross what religion would benefit the most. Judaism and Islam would benefit the most becasue they do not believe Jesus was the messiah.

A+

Originally posted by photobug
To insist that he did not die adds credibility to the theory of a holy bloodline and thus the return of a messiah from this bloodline that will one day unite the world. In essence what you have here is a viable story that allows the Antichrist to be seen as the Messiah.

You've gone for extra credit, very nice. I didn't think about that.

My branch of conclusion led me to those who wish to validate that Jesus was indeed merely a prophet. In validating he did exist and did not die on the cross would substantiate the two religions you've mentioned here. So, there is good reason/agenda for promoting this school of thought. These faiths do want you to believe that the Bible is right where it says he existed, performed miracles and was a great teacher, but that the Bible was wrong on the death and resurrection part. Strange that part of a document was carefully right for ~90%, but absolutely wrong in the last 10%, yes?

[edit on 3-4-2008 by saint4God]