U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Like it or not, that's how the Founding Fathers set up our system of Government. That's why you pick the politician that most closely resembles your philosophies, and if they end up in left field from what you thought, you don't reelect them. What we need is term limits for Congressmen and Senators. That way, that limits the number of times idiots can reelect folks who aren't serving their constituents.

When it works its the best system in the world.

The problem is that it is not working. Every damn representative of the people, now just listen to the corporations and ignore the people. How much of the population do you think wanted NAFTA? How about the illegal immigrant issue? Immanent Domain? Patriot act? Income tax? (none of it is for the people, that is paid through the thousand other taxes) Or the North American Union? Mexican truck drivers on American roads?

I could go on forever. Its not the government by the people for the people anymore.

It is now Government by the corporation for the corporation.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


That's why term limits need to be in place. Come serve your country for a few years, and then go back to whatever your profession is. The Founding Fathers never imagined professional politicians.

Originally posted by BlueRaja

That's why term limits need to be in place. Come serve your country for a few years, and then go back to whatever your profession is. The Founding Fathers never imagined professional politicians.

How could that be the answer? All due respect to your opinion but then you are going to have CEO's and other board members of these multinational corporations in power giving the corporate elite even more power. When our founding fathers were forging this nations rules and laws the corporation was not considered an individual with the same rights as a human.

Now they do. This needs to change. It wont though, the corporations have too much power and influence. This will not change unless mankind has a dramatic shift in conscience. Most people have no idea what is happening to them, they don't know that most psychiatrists work for the big advertising companies and have been severely manipulating the system since 1922. All based on animalistic desire and fear. They feed the reptilian mind and sublimely alter the sub conscience so mankind is mostly powerless to logically think our way out of this mess. It is all very complex and the governments think tanks have come to the conclusion that they are pushing us past the breaking point and are preparing for an uprising.

This is very obvious if you understand the way the REAL history of the world and the way the world actually works. I used to think exactly like you my friend, but education of how the world really works can be an eye opening experience.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

The problem is that there are quite few of these desensitized kids that have been raised on violent video games and TV that have ZERO empathy. Not all of course but there is a still way too many that are doing these horrific things in a country that we are supposed to be liberating. Search Youtube, ask any soldier that stills has some of their humanity left they will tell you. We don't need to be turning our children into killers. We are in a strategic position on this continent that we do not need a standing army for defense. It is for offense only.

I can't say killing 200 people a month who just so happened attacked first or were positioning themselves to attack and were interrupted is the picture that you seem to want to paint of an Army of killers.

The US military helps and saves millions too ever year. You have some skewed view that a large portion of the military actually sees combat and the truth is the majority don’t. They might be in a combat zone but that doesn’t mean their job is one of combat. It is oblivious that you disagree with whether we need an Army at all, but please don’t try to justify your opinion using false and inflated ideals.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by dk3000

 

It sounds like your complaint is that high value property received more priority for protection, more than the fact that there were soldiers present, as your initial post would lead one to believe. That's a valid discussion, but it's a different discussion than this one.

I agree with you on that- I was not trying to hijack the discussion. Just my experiences with military presence. So I will rephrase, "It was creepy and it didn't feel like I was living in America it felt somehow- Communist". In discussing this with associates in the area at the time- we all pretty much felt the same way.

Now- that said- The government of this country and those who are helping to undermine America (Zionists, Elite, ext..) Have seriously under-estimated the heart and soul of a true American (soulless people as I mentioned^). I belong to many websites and without exception, American are waking to the horrors which are unfolding. While there are many stupid "sheeple", there are far more tired and true Americans, who when push comes to shove- will in fact take out the factions which are intruding- and we have nearly reached critical mass. Plans are being made and should the bad guys win (I doubt they will), there won't be much left to boast about having "won". So there is that.

It is far more likely that the bad guys are planning on chemical warfare (I think they doing it right now). I happen to be in the know on one level with information and I will just say I am far more concerned with some ego crazed scientists discovering and implementing technology they should not be messing with.

One administrator here knows who I am, what I used do for a living, who my relatives are. I am somewhat in the know.

You can trust me when I say the opposition is about to get slammed. It will get a bit worse before it gets better. Somethings will look very bad- but they are necessary steps in getting our government back and our country back.

A few suggestions:

Do not give up your weapons.
Do not give your DNA
Stay out of Hospitals/Emergency Rooms if you can
Stay out of schools/universities
Stay away from Amusement Parks and other highly populated areas if you can.
Use small business and other trusted businesses
Do not shop at big wholesale corporate stores
Use herbal and natural remedies whenever possible
Have an up to date emergency kit
Be ready to relocate fast (have a plan) Coordinate with 5 people at least

And finally- don't ever be afraid of anything. Treat people as if the world is going to end at midnight.

Always remember that Karma is the only universal law that works the same for everything and everyone which is why there are no lawyers who specialize in this field- its fair and contains no loop-holes!

Just as soon as these few misguided greedy lunatics are dealt their Karma- we can get rid of that list and talk about all the cool schitt we will be able to look forward to!

end transmission



[edit on 7-2-2008 by dk3000]

It all boils down to the question of fear! When things get rough will we let fear dictate wheather or not we relinquish the freedoms that we supposidly value and hold in such high esteem? Is that all it will take to make us throw away all semblances of free and rational society?

This question has already been answered at the founding of this country. What happened in New Orleans and what is being suggested in this thread (the round up of guns and American Citizens) under Martial Law is Illegal. Now the evocation of Martial Law in times of severe crisis is lawful and logical. But, there is no legal ground that the government has to stand on when it comes to the round up of citizens less they be rebels or rioters. Now if they are running the streets with firearms and robbing people OK then but this is not the situation that is being presented. I would add that even then only those people should be disarmed and arrested.

As far as going from door to door confiscating firearms as in New Orleans (which is documented and did happen of which legislation was voted on in the Senate HR5441) this constitutes illegal search and seizure and also tramples the right to keep and bear arms. No emergency gives the government the right to trample any of these rights.

Must I remind every one here that not one American Soldier ever took an oath to uphold the every whim of a despot or superior officer. I think it goes something along the lines of "to defend the Constitution of The United States Of America Against ALL enemies both foreign and domestic." I think that that includes defending the rights that I listed above and also places anyone that gives an order contrary to that in the catagory of a domestic enemy. Not to mention that an order or law that is not sanctioned by the Constitution is not leagaly binding and falls under the military code that allows for a slodier to disreguard any illegal order given to him. If this soldier complies than it makes him complacent with that illegal action and just as bad as those that issued the order.

As for the matter of "foreign" troops being allowed into our millitary, I say that this presents a clear and present danger to our freedom as they most probably hold no true sense of duty to U.S. Citizens nor do they feal any true duty to uphold the Constitution. If they even understand it's basic principles which I'm sure that they don't seing as how American troops go around confiscating guns in New Orleans, why would a foreigner give a rats a$# when we can't get our own men and women to?

So at long last as I have said in the past if any of you see any "soldiers" on your streets confiscating weapons whether they have Old Glory on their helmet or if it's UN blue. I say "OPEN FIRE!"and die free on your feet rather than become some form of medieval peasantry.



[edit on 7-2-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 8-2-2008 by lazy1981]

[edit on 8-2-2008 by lazy1981]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by BlueRaja

That's why term limits need to be in place. Come serve your country for a few years, and then go back to whatever your profession is. The Founding Fathers never imagined professional politicians.

How could that be the answer? All due respect to your opinion but then you are going to have CEO's and other board members of these multinational corporations in power giving the corporate elite even more power. When our founding fathers were forging this nations rules and laws the corporation was not considered an individual with the same rights as a human.

When you have a career politician, they are far more subject to the influence of special interests, than someone who is only in office for a brief period. They get too far removed from the "unwashed masses" and lose touch with reality. If a public servant knows that their prime mission in life isn't trying to get reelected, but rather to do their job(i.e. pass legislation). They need to do away with the automatic pensions too. If politicians have to live under the same policies as everyone else, they'll have a greater incentive to make sure things that make sense/work are put in place. As it is, things like health care costs, social security, etc.. are not gonna be things they have to worry about, since they'll get a huge pension and med care for life. If they're there for a short period, without all the perqs, then their incentive will be to do things that help rather than things that help get reelected.

reply to post by Raist


The "Good guy" percentage is way higher than 49% and the nut case percentage is higher too. A lot of the good guys and nut cases overlap. The robotic killers are few and far between, except maybe in elite units.

Just my observation.
(Yes I consider myself a good guy, and a bit of a nut case at times.)

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by ItsHumanNature

 

Blackwater employees are citizens too, and no- they don't kill for money. Most Blackwater employees have never had to shoot or kill anybody, and they certainly aren't out doing contract kills as your assertion would imply.

You are dead wrong. As a private army, they are absolutely analogous to Mussolini's Black Shirts (as well as Hitler's Brownshirts). They are an abomination, and anyone who defends them is either woefully ignorant, deceived, or a shill for Blackwater.

Well not sure if this helps at all but I just spoke to a friend of mine who just got back from 29 Palms and he basically never heard anything about it... so take it however you like
I believe him, he wasn't sure he wanted to be in the military in the first place so I doubt very much he would readily agree to such a thing

Originally posted by lazy1981
It all boils down to the question of fear! When things get rough will we let fear dictate wheather or not we relinquish the freedoms that we supposidly value and hold in such high esteem? Is that all it will take to make us throw away all semblances of free and rational society?

The Bush/Clinton/Rockefeller/Rothschild crime syndicate is banking on 'Fear' as their main currency in obtaining the control and power they want over the lives of ordinary people. They are masters of "Fear" whether it be real or manufactured, and they always turn it to their advantage to erode the rights and liberties of the law-abiding in order to advance their push toward total control of every level of human life. Earth has not seen such an evil cabal in a while.

Ordinary people need to be schooled in not making decisions in response to fear, and they need to become intelligent masters of their own emotions.

After 9/11 in the USA, because the populace was tragically unprepared, Bush/Cheney and associates were able to capitalise upon both fear and the understandable desire for revenge. That a self-declared Evangelical President of the USA was calling for blood for blood revenge apparently did not phase the self-declared Christian citizens of the USA. Fear and anger and the Christians pitched out their principles in favour of older ideas of revenge and punishment.

Just as the Christians were so easily co-opted by the Bush/Cheney criminals, members of armed forces and police departments can also easily fall into the traps laid by these Masters of Fear, Mayhem, and Murder... But there is still time to educate the valiant men and women who want to serve their country.

The USA needs a new Ten Commandments with Commandment One being "American does not kill an American." Bringing such a dictum into the ethos of the USA and the moral character of US Americans could have a saving effect when the neo-Cons go for broke -- and they are close to doing that.

In this 2 minute 40 second video I will embed we can see what America has become. It will do anything to keep moving forward and must be ready to keep Americans from getting in its way. It will do anything to bury any opposition.

Including us...

okay... you're neighbor has a bomb strapped to his vest, aren't you going to kill him? or how about.. you're brother is going to highjack a plane? alot of people are missing the point here. TERRORISM knows no boundaries. and you've seen it in the news everyother day. school shootings, hostage crises, robberies, you name it. whether you want to face it or not, it's in your town. quit attacking the #ing military everytime some loon thinks we're out to get you.

And yes, let us honor those that have lost their lives in iraq, all to often from terrorism.

Originally posted by joe_dirt976
okay... you're neighbor has a bomb strapped to his vest, aren't you going to kill him? or how about.. you're brother is going to highjack a plane? alot of people are missing the point here. TERRORISM knows no boundaries. and you've seen it in the news everyother day. school shootings, hostage crises, robberies, you name it. whether you want to face it or not, it's in your town. quit attacking the #ing military everytime some loon thinks we're out to get you.

And yes, let us honor those that have lost their lives in iraq, all to often from terrorism.

There is a fine line however in being Patriotic and Paranoia...
This country is supposed to be based on Freedom and where I agree too much Freedom may lead to Harmful Circumstances and some people feel the need to control it a bit
Too much Control can lead to Harmful Circumstances as well
Good example:
Think of the American people like children, as i'm sure the Government does
They act like parents
We cry and plead for better and faster methods on living and they determine what they think is good for us, leading us to believe we made the choice
but when a parent is too strict, a child will act out in another way down the line that may be destructive
If the parent is too soft, then the child will have too much Freedom and run about causing trouble because it is learning
Too much control is not an answer, there has to be a balance
Ultimately the People, however, who are pretending to be the Parents of the World are really just Children themselves
Then comes Greed, because with control comes money, more money more control so then other more devious methods and motives come into play

[edit on 9-2-2008 by Numb2itall]

Originally posted by Pellevoisin

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by ItsHumanNature

 

Blackwater employees are citizens too, and no- they don't kill for money. Most Blackwater employees have never had to shoot or kill anybody, and they certainly aren't out doing contract kills as your assertion would imply.

You are dead wrong. As a private army, they are absolutely analogous to Mussolini's Black Shirts (as well as Hitler's Brownshirts). They are an abomination, and anyone who defends them is either woefully ignorant, deceived, or a shill for Blackwater.

It would appear that we're gonna end up with a no they aren't, yes they are, argument where your opinion as evidence, is all you need to justify yourself, and my opinion is obviously irrelevant. You didn't even attempt to argue a single point, by showing me where I was dead wrong. You simply dismissed it out of hand.

Originally posted by joe_dirt976
okay... you're neighbor has a bomb strapped to his vest, aren't you going to kill him? or how about.. you're brother is going to highjack a plane? alot of people are missing the point here. TERRORISM knows no boundaries. and you've seen it in the news everyother day. school shootings, hostage crises, robberies, you name it. whether you want to face it or not, it's in your town. quit attacking the #ing military everytime some loon thinks we're out to get you.

And yes, let us honor those that have lost their lives in iraq, all to often from terrorism.

This pretty much nails it. It's just like if I have an intruder in my house in the middle of the night, who happens to be an American citizen. That fact isn't gonna improve their odds any. What it doesn't mean though, is that I have any intentions of going into other peoples homes.

reply to post by Pellevoisin


I find myself in agreement with alot of what you have to say. And I don't think that Americans killing other Americans is a good thing. Unfortunately it may become a necessary thing if people don't open their eyes to the emerging fascist state that we now live in. It has been steadily going in that direction since WW2 (even earlier). As evidenced by the regulatory capture of our government that can no longer be denied by any true American that has not been brainwashed by blind patriotism.

Patriotism is one of those things that is just as dangerous as religion. If people follow those that they see as their leaders "without question" they are easily lead astray. And in some cases to their doom without giving it a second thought.

The time has come and long since past for us to decide wheather we are sheep or people of free will and self determination. And yes, that may very well mean that we may have to shed American blood over it.

Originally posted by joe_dirt976
okay... you're neighbor has a bomb strapped to his vest, aren't you going to kill him? or how about.. you're brother is going to highjack a plane? alot of people are missing the point here. TERRORISM knows no boundaries. and you've seen it in the news everyother day. school shootings, hostage crises, robberies, you name it. whether you want to face it or not, it's in your town. quit attacking the #ing military everytime some loon thinks we're out to get you.

And yes, let us honor those that have lost their lives in iraq, all to often from terrorism.

First, I would like to join you in honoring those men and women that are fighting in Iraq. I also honor those that are doing the same in Afganistan; Furthermore let us honor those that have given the ultimate sacrifice that a soldier or anyone for that matter can give for their country. Let us pay homage to those that share in the spirit of the war cry of one of our most valiant spec ops forces. It may ring a bell for some of u. It's the moto of the U.S.A.F. PJ'S "That others may live.." I'm sure that all those that have given of themselves had this very thing in mind. Wheather it was for their country or the men in their unit. They gave of themselves without being asked. So we should all take a moment now and every day after to remember them.
That being said I would like to address this idea that you have of a terrorist lurking around every corner. I'm sure that this is not the case and you should not buy into these fear tactics that others would have you beleive.
I would not prersume to tell you that the threat of another attack isn't real. I'm sure that these people are very determined and we do need to be vigillant. However this does not in any way mean that we should allow our government to take nor should we relinquish a single soloitary right for one second.
Now I'm sure that "school shooting, robberies, and hostage situations (generaly speaking)" are not the actions of Islamic terrorists no matter how much you or the other fear mongers would like to lump them all together.
See the tactict is easy make anti-terrorism laws which afford the government extra powers and strip people or rights under those powers during times of crisis (which the Gov. already has) and then you start lumping all sorts of crimes and trageties into that category as joe_dirt976 just did (no offence joe but that is exactly what you did). See Patriot Act Sec. 802. that when I last read it defined domestic terrorism as "any act that endangers human life in violation of current Federal, State, or Local Laws." when veiwed in this light anybody could be a terrorist .
But that being said I've maid my point and this realy is a topic best discussed on another thread. Now back to the issue at hand.
Wheather or notwe find ourselves in a natural disaster like in New Orleans or in the midst of a genuine terrorist attack the government has no right to deprive us of our rights.
Wheather or not soldiers have or have not been asked if they would shoot US citizens is beyond me to say because I wasn't there. What I will say is that they DID in fact confiscate firearms from law abiding citizens solely on the orders of their commanding officers. If they had been arresting looters and other criminals and confiscating their weapons it would have been A OK but that was a disgrace not only to the uniform that they wear but also to every man and woman that has worn that uniform before them.
See I don't think this is a question of people attacking the armed forces as much as it is the armed forces willing becoming the tool of a government that wishes to attack the rights of it's citizens. And I think that if you can open your eyes to what's going on around you joe_dirt976 you'll agree that at least in New Orleans this was the case. The Constitution does not allow for that sort of action even under Martial Law. As much as we do not like to se people hurt some times in order to be free there is a level of comfort and safety that we have to sacrifice. We can't turn all of our problems up to the Gov. because if we do then we also end up turning over most if not all of our rights.
As far as those troops go and any others that would do the same I feel that once they cross that line and throw away the morals and creed that they fight for; once they loose sight of the oath that they took any past glory and reverence that they once held has sadly disappeared.
At that point they have disgraced themselves and their country.
Yet they have not stopped there, our men and women do not only fight to defnd The Constitution, the country, and us. They also carry into battle the memory of those before them. They fight to continue the work that may began long before any of us were even thought of. So when you talk about honoring the memory of the fallen think of the fallen of yesteryear also.
Those that disgrace the uniform also disgrace the soldiers that fought and died at Lexington,Concord, Bunker Hill, and Trenton. The valiant defenders of Ft. McHenry during the war of 1812 that inspired the national anthem, and also the men (under Andrew Jackson) that strugled to defend New Orleans against a far greater British force and yet won the day (in the same war). They defame the memory of men that sacrificed their lives at Gettysberg, Chancellorsville,and Antietam. The men who fought and died at the battles of Cantigny, Chateau-Thierry, and the famous taking of Belleau Wood by the 4th Marine Brigade of the 2nd Div. A.E.F. earning them the tittle of "Devil Dogs" given to them by a determined German foe that they wear with honor to this day. To name a few in WW2 D-Day, Bastogne, Monte Casino, Tarawa, Iwo Jima. Korean War- Pusan, Inchon, and Chosin. Vietnam War- Ia Drang Valley, Khe Sanh, and Hue.
You see when soldiers disgrace themselves by ignoring The Constitution and peoples rights they also disgrace people like my uncle Howard that fought in Korea and my Great uncle Karl that fought in WW1. They forget the memory of those that srvedbefore them and died for those very rights that they would deny others at the order of others. So when you say we ought to honor the fallen, I say yes HONOR the fallen and if it comes down to it then blood may need be shed eventualy to do so. LET US PRAY THAT THE DAY IS NEVER NECESSARY.

reply to post by lazy1981



The point to remember here is that regardless of all the sidebar discussions in this thread, the original assertion is false. Servicemembers are not being polled to see who would shoot American citizens. I do agree that the Military shouldn't be used as a law enforcement tool, and wouldn't argue that point.

reply to post by BlueRaja

In a general sense I would most likely agree with you that service men and women are not being polled in this manner. Now before I go any further I want to get this out there because I know some smug SOB will play this card. I have not had the honor of serving my country in a military capacity as I have had severe Asthma since childhood. That being said I coudn't tell anyone that "I've seen or heard these accusations personaly."
What I will say is that I can remember a documentary by Alex Jones probably a "Police State" one (I know that not every one subscribes to his veiws but what I saw was very telling). In this documentary he showed a young black serviceman that he and his crew had on film as they wre trying to aska few questions. Now this all took place on a public street but the point is that when the service man realized that he was on camera instead of asking that he not be vidiotaped like a normal human being he began to get very close and in the face of Mr. Jones and his crew shouting and swearing. To my dismay as this unfolds his Sergeant was standing there all the while and not once did he check his obscene behavior towards an American Citizen on American Streets.
We also have the issue of the millitary lowering it's enlistment standards and letting known gang members into the ranks. Known felons are having criminal records waived in order to boulster troop numbers. We see pictures of gang graffiti in Iraq and vidio of soldiers of duty at parties throwing up gang signs (even while in uniform).
So how far fetched would it be for us to believe that there may well be a rogue element in the military. Although it's not the main body, they may still be canvassing those that they believe would be sypathetic or at the least apathetic to that sort of scenario.
When you realy think about it they have the troops mental evals. and back grounds so they have an idea of who they would be looking to ask. The military isn't stupid, if there is any truth to the matter than they wouldn't go around blindly and ask every one. They would research what the target group would be, just as would any survey (people willing to go along with their supposed plan) and then they would look for those with a background and mental evals. comparable with the target group that they have in mind. If you match you get surveyed. Now like I said I can't say that this is the case but I would imagine that this would be their approach if it were so. I doubt that they would ask Johny from down on the farm or the average city Joe that left his factory job to go fight over seas to come home and shoot up his mom and pop for Uncle Sam.
Now with the notion of foreigners, gang bangers, and criminals (NOT THAT THIS IS ALL OF OUR MILLITARY) being trained and some lacking in the knowledge of American rights (foreigners) and others lackind morals and value (gang bangers and criminals) these could easily be turned against the American people. These sorts and the blind patriots that feel that our government can do no wrong can easily be turned.
In any event the idea of such a thing would have to be an overthrow of our current form of government or the unveiling of a new form of government that they'd exspect a general revolt. Otherwise why would they ask such a question if they had indead asked at all. With that in mind anything is possible.
If you look at situations like that in the past you don't realy need the whole military in order to pull off a stunt like that it has happened in the past. If there is anytruth to it I am of the opinion that it is a rogue element putting the feelers out looking for support from boot lickers that have no backbone.