U.S. Troops Asked If They Would Shoot American Citizens

It is all about the perceived threat. If a threat is perceived as real then I think any Military personnel would shoot. Unfortunately some people like to perceive a threat that is greater then it really is. A good example is the police officer that tazered the guy on the side of the road when he was trying to reason with the officer. There are not a lot but there are the few news articles where a cop gets a bit trigger happy when it was not necessary.

How does this happen? I think there are several factors. The first is the perceived threat. The second is the training of the person and what they are trained to do. If a man is trained to do X when Y happens, he eventually does it automatically. Taking time to think about it will cost him his life so don't think.

It even becomes easier when taking the life is just a push of a button and there is no face to face confrontation. For example, "blow up that house there are insurgents in there", when in reality it is a man defending is family from what he believes to be unconstitutional actions.

The more chaotic the situation the easier it is to perceive a threat that isn't real. So do I think the military will fire upon citizens? Yes! They will do what they are programmed to do if the situation is right, that is what makes them good soldiers and keeps them alive. Am I blaming the soldier? No. I blame the factors that brought the soldier to the point where he is positioned in opposition to the citizen.

If we let those factors happen then citizens will die by the hands of soldiers who may regret there actions later but, then it is too late.

Originally posted by brianhks
It even becomes easier when taking the life is just a push of a button and there is no face to face confrontation. For example, "blow up that house there are insurgents in there", when in reality it is a man defending is family from what he believes to be unconstitutional actions.

The more chaotic the situation the easier it is to perceive a threat that isn't real. So do I think the military will fire upon citizens? Yes! They will do what they are programmed to do if the situation is right, that is what makes them good soldiers and keeps them alive.

Is this house of insurgents, American citizens in your scenario, or are you referring to Iraq? If American, I assume by insurgent, you mean they have resorted to violent methods to show their disagreement with the government. Could you give an example where you think that resorting to violence vs. other means would be appropriate.

As for chaos, and programming- do you imagine a scenario where things are more chaotic in the US, than Soldiers/Marines have had to face in Iraq/Afghanistan? Programming is a poor choice of words, as it implies robotic like actions. Soldiers/Marines have to use a lot of thought when facing new and complicated scenarios. There's a difference between not being indecisive, and being without thought, when a response is necessary.

reply to post by BlueRaja


It doesn't matter where the house is. My point is the perceived threat. That youtube video posted earlier is a great example. The old lady was pummeled by 4 guys because she had an empty revolver in her hand. One guy yelled "she's got a gun" and the others jumped in without thinking but, that is what they are supposed to do. In another situation the officer would be dead if they didn't act quickly. That is a programmed response to a situation. You didn't see the camera men jumping on her, they were not programmed for that response.

I use "programmed" not in a derogatory way. If soldiers and police were not programmed to react in a certain way in situations they would be dead. As I stated before that "programming" is part of what makes them good soldiers and cops. In the situation with the old lady they police should never have been told to remove people from their houses and to confiscate the guns. The officer in charge should have evaluated the situation and told the lady she could stay instead of "we were ordered to evacuate everyone".

reply to post by Dock6


thank you, where would I find out more information about "Editorial Intelligence and Media Monitoring" ?? pls send it to [email protected]

As I posted earlier, the US Military and Intelligence communities are on our side. They undermine the war agenda all the time at their highest levels of command. I seriously believe that if such an order was given, that the Commanders of military units would go against the government. Do any of you read anything that Generals publish publicly, these men are certainly not automatons, robots or whatever you want to call them. And they would not divy those orders out to our troops in my opinion. These are the men who frequently threaten to resign if a conflict with Iran is started. Here's a letter from General Petraeus.----PDF Format, requires Adobe Reader.

Values Message from General Petraeus

This letter to the troops in Iraq gives us all a good glimpse into Petraeus' values and into his personal views. This doesn't sound like a commander who would allow such actions to be taken against American Citizens and certainly doesn't tolerate such actions against non-combatants in Iraq. I pray to God that we have more commanders like him in our military and am sure we do. If such a 'round up' of Americans ever does come to pass, I believe we can rely on such men in our military to help prevent it from going any further and hopefully prevent it completely. This is why I believe we have the military on our side and we should not fear but embrace that idea.

I haven't read past the first 2 pages and have no idea if anyone else has posted about a relevant factor to this thread.

I personally know several people that have served in Iraq, most have done at least 2 tours so far. One disturbing fact about these people returning from Iraq is that they have an extremely unhealthy drive to "obey the rules." That anyone that doesn't "obey the rules" are to be dealt with harshly and without regard as to whether obeying the rules put the disobedient one in peril. One instance I will state as an example, is one soldiers son was attacked by several other students in school and basically had the chit beat out of him. This young man was disciplined by the school for defending himself. The mother raised hell with the school because the son was merely defending himself when he fought back. The soldier returned home from his tour a couple months later and went ballistic towards the wife and son because they were "contesting the school's rules" towards no fighting.

The relevancy here is that this soldier and his whole platoon had disappeared in Iraq for 2 weeks with no word in or out of the platoon. It was AFTER this disappearnce that said soldier started showing signs of a very unhealthy mental attitude for "obeying the rules" After some inquiries to friends around the country, literally thousands of our troops have had this same 2 week "disappearnce" happen and afterwards most have severe personality changes. Many returning from Iraq have demonstrated bizarre behaviors, some to the point of killing their families before turning the guns upon themselves. I've followed many of these stories in the press as some had quotes from interviewed neighbors who spoke about the returning soldier exhibiting irrational behavior towards anyone not "obeying the rules" Being former military myself I have friends all across the country whom I've questioned about any returning soldiers they know personally exhibiting this irrational behavior pattern and the number of affirmitive answers is alarming to say the least.

So.......based on what I know of the number of returning troops exhibiting this behavior pattern of "obeying the rules", Do I think they will fire on American Citizens? Damn right they will if they perceive the Citizens as not "obeying the rules!"

[edit on 6-2-2008 by RedDragon69]

Back around 11-12 years ago a survey was circulated amongst many within the military at that time. The basis of the survey was to find out if given the order to round up or in the even, shoot citizens of the U.S. including family members the main results were that our troops at that time would not follow such orders.

As most of you have stated, our own military would not shoot on its own, despite the Kent incident and even those few times during the L.A. riots. You have to look at the circumstances. Back when the Kent incident took place there was loads of civial unrest due to the war, our nation was divided. So those in uniform that had not gone overseas were vunerable to controlled influences as is the basic military way of keeping things in order (boot camp mentality). And for the L.A. riot, the shooting that took place there was warranted since the subject that was shot was about to run down the soldiers with a car.

So reality dicatates that our own will not be doing any real shooting at thier own. The source of the shooting would come from troops brought over here from other countries who despise us to begin with.

Another point is, the powers to be hope that we will comply willingly and thus only those who disobey will be the ones rounded up for the camps and those will include past military vets, cause lets face it, they have the real life training to create offensives if need be. A lot of the round up would take place under darkness and would be swift in regards to vets, otherwise they will have already spooked out.

Another point to consider is gangs. They are growing in vast numbers and most of them come from abroad. They do not hisitate to kill anyone that gets in the way or who they are told to whack. They are supplied with weapons from our own undercover. That statement is true based on my own personnel conversation with those who lived in those affected areas that happened to share the truth with me one late evening of conversations.

Now here is a point that we must keep clear in our heads. There are more of us than of them (meaning any and all they try to bring within our boarders without us being aware). So if people do not cooperate, then there will be major problems and they know it. This has been the plus to why nothing has been overtly done as of yet. The advantage they have is the use of weapons that most have not paid attention to. I would suggest that everyone be familar with the locations of all nearby locations regarding celluar towers, cause we must not forget, that everything usually has two purposes - the one stated and the one no one is told about.

We all can be affected by frequency waves of all sorts and the towers and their reciever/transmitters can be the perfect tools to control the masses in the areas where population is concentrated the most. Let us not forget, that such technology can actually drop you to your knees and even kill if need be.

I do not mean to scare, just inform.

I think alot of this is being taken out of context. There is no "secret" plan for martial law and to shoot civilians. Like previous posters have stated everyone in the military IS a US citizen and has family and friends stateside. Being prior military (USMC) MOS 0231 and my job being a military Intelligence specialist (no oxymoron jokes please) I can tell you that even though I took an oath "to defend against threats foreign or domestic" at no time would I turn into John Rambo and just start killing indiscriminately , I would exercise my own discretion even if it ment disobeying a direct lawfull order and went against ROE. I feel most of our military would do the same. As far as being brainwashed I do feel that If your mind isn't strong you can be programmed to a certain degree. That does not mean that you are under any sort of mind control, it simply means that in a panic situation you will automatically fall back on the training you recieve. I can tell you that I myself am subject to that same programming. I recently had a co worker go into cardiac arrest. Instead of standing there and freezing as most of my fellow workers did I immediately took action and went into first aid mode. It wasn't a concious decision, I didn't think about it , I just did it... It's a reflex and it is something that stays with you. On the flip side of that I can also tell you that I am always "on", Even though I am no longer active military even walking down the street I am constantly "in the yellow" and I'm assesing "percieved" threats or situations that "could possibly happen" this too is something I can't "turn off". It's something that is hard to explain to the average person who hasn't been through the training that I have. If I had a more expansive vocabulary maybe I could explain it better. If you know any marines or former rangers/ team guys they will attest to this.

If you have a chance read this----> en.wikipedia.org...:_The_Psychological_Cost_of_Learning_to_Kill_in_War_and_Society

It goes in depth into the training that we recieve in the military.


[edit on 6-2-2008 by EyesWideShut]

reply to post by BlueRaja


Google and read The Ten Steps To Fascism. It is the recorded steps Hitler took in Germany. Bush has followed the first nine, only one to go. Also google Prescott Bush, George's granddaddy. He loved and financed the Hitler minitary machine.
Those that forget history are condemned to repeat it.

reply to post by manbearpig

A story with no sources that anyone else could contact to verify the truth of the story.

That said, ever since the incident at Kent State (where there was a riot during the Vietnam War and Ohio National Guard troops fired on the rioting students), the National Guard has conducted training that asks questions about following orders, in addition to what is a lawful order and what is not.

The origin behind this thread appears to take such training out of context.

Would you want them not to conduct such training?

[edit on 6-2-2008 by CharlesMartel]

Originally posted by BlueRaja
If American, I assume by insurgent, you mean they have resorted to violent methods to show their disagreement with the government. Could you give an example where you think that resorting to violence vs. other means would be appropriate.

From the Declaration of Independence:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

When in the past decade or so has the Government listened to what the people really want? They thumb the collective nose at us and say to hell with them we are doing as we please. When is the last time we had REAL leadership? We are losing all our rights one by one. The last right to lose will be the freedom of speech, if it goes that far it is too late. So what do you do when nothing but violence works?

I can almost hear the people marching in the streets.

If they were an event where the military would need to begin taking out citizens, more then likely this wouldn't settle well at all with the nation and the world. By saying so the government's eyes would be trying to eliminate gangs but in many instances Urban Guerrilla Warfare would defeat the strategy of military ops. As for the whole instance where the people who hate cops would be on top more than likely if it were an alliance between them there would be no trouble. If battles were waged with this warfare the country would be destroyed and America would not exist and takeovers of cities would be left. If only that would happen

my daughter is in the navy, and believe me,if they were to ask her that ,she would be on the phone to me asap. i am a paranoid,and i trained her what to watch out for, and i trained her well so dont jump to conclusions just yet. i'll let you know if she gets asked

I'm just going to be real about this and true to myself and if any of this is too crazy or whatever for you, thats okay. I feel like I have to take part, I\'ve been very quiet and just a spectator until recently.

To me there is no denying that we are leading up to something. We know that our Government does not have our best interests at heart, and they show that on all levels. Whether it the FDA or the CIA their task has not been one to progress the American people.(or human beings at all) No, rather, they have their Agenda and we know bits and pieces of it. Some of it complete disinformation and some of it forewarnings and truths. There has been much suffering for any real info and there are still far too many questions.
But I propose this, that we can\'t afford to wait and hope all of our questions are brought to light. they might never be, or only when it is too late.
What we know for certain right now is that we no longer live under the Constitution and we are NOT free people. We are under the UN Constitution and Homeland Security is the Police of the Future for America.
Right now, we dont have the right to protest. In days to come, the internet will not be available to us either. At any moment there could be a real, or staged terrorist attack, Martial Law implemented and it\'s checkmate.
Our Congress has sold us down the river. Real ID RFID Chip is at our doorstep. Americans are gladly handing over the last shreds of Freedom in the name of any kind of Security.
The majority of Americans are a slave to our fast paced society, resorted to recieving their news in headlines. They are not going to wake up. Not until Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck decide to tell everyone. Not gonna happen. The Revolution was won with 4% of the population, roughly. The rest did not take part. It will be the same, and we have the same weapons. Truth, Love, Freedom, Equality, Justice, we are the righteous, we are the divine, the rightful inhabitants to this Earth and we will not go quietly into the night. We must fight. We may die. We must go into Eternity knowing we did what we could to make this World a better place for all who inhabit it with us and after us. Please join me in brainstorming ideas on how we can still mobilize in mass in peaceful protest and create an impact. And when I mean in mass I mean all of us who are fed up. Millions? Hundreds of Thousands.
We need enough people so that the Media cant spin it badly, so that we create a voice loud enough they MUST listen. They divide us every day, Democrat or Republican, SAME THING!, its just a division game. We must unite for Freedom. We must stop these bills that are passed every single day designed to take away our freedoms, we must stop Diebold and go back to Hand Ballots, we must storm the White House and take back our Country! We need Ron Paul to tell it like it really is to the Nation if the MSM ever lets him in front of one of their cameras again, We need Bono on the case! we need big names to get the Media coverage and all of us behind it. We need to do our own repeating of History. In the name of Good.

Originally posted by ludaChris

Values Message from General Petraeus

This letter to the troops in Iraq gives us all a good glimpse into Petraeus' values and into his personal views. This doesn't sound like a commander who would allow such actions to be taken against American Citizens and certainly doesn't tolerate such actions against non-combatants in Iraq. I pray to God that we have more commanders like him in our military and am sure we do. If such a 'round up' of Americans ever does come to pass, I believe we can rely on such men in our military to help prevent it from going any further and hopefully prevent it completely. This is why I believe we have the military on our side and we should not fear but embrace that idea.

I worked for him when he was lowly Colonel Petraeus, and can vouch for him that he's not the kind of guy that American citizens have to fear.

Originally posted by RedDragon69

One instance I will state as an example, is one soldiers son was attacked by several other students in school and basically had the chit beat out of him. This young man was disciplined by the school for defending himself. The mother raised hell with the school because the son was merely defending himself when he fought back. The soldier returned home from his tour a couple months later and went ballistic towards the wife and son because they were "contesting the school's rules" towards no fighting.

The relevancy here is that this soldier and his whole platoon had disappeared in Iraq for 2 weeks with no word in or out of the platoon. It was AFTER this disappearnce that said soldier started showing signs of a very unhealthy mental attitude for "obeying the rules" After some inquiries to friends around the country, literally thousands of our troops have had this same 2 week "disappearnce" happen and afterwards most have severe personality changes. Many returning from Iraq have demonstrated bizarre behaviors, some to the point of killing their families before turning the guns upon themselves.


So.......based on what I know of the number of returning troops exhibiting this behavior pattern of "obeying the rules", Do I think they will fire on American Citizens? Damn right they will if they perceive the Citizens as not "obeying the rules!"

[edit on 6-2-2008 by RedDragon69]

There's a difference between citing specific incidents, and concluding what is typical. Obviously as a soldier obeying orders is important, as the failure to do so can result in mission failure or getting people killed/injured.

This platoon that "disappeared" for 2 weeks- can you be a little more specific- did their unit not know where they were for 2 weeks, or was it that they didn't have contact with home for 2 weeks? If it was the latter, then that's nothing unusual. Whenever there's a mission being planned/conducted, internet/phones/etc... are shut down for OPSEC purposes.

Are there soldiers/marines that have returned and behaved bizarre? Yes- the rigors/horrors of war affect different people in varying ways. The more important question is what is the prevalence of this phenomenon. I've been downrange and know an awful lot of people that have too, that have come home without any unusual behaviors. Many of these killings you spoke of are when soldiers came home and met their spouse's boyfriend, or finding out that their spouse emptied their bank account, etc....- this is not to justify or excuse their behavior, but just to give a little more context for what might have set them off. In any event, there's no evidence that you've presented that would show a propensity among soldiers to be willing to shoot citizens that were being disobedient.

reply to post by LoneGunMan


Answer this question with regards to the Government doing what people want- do all the people want the same thing? You have people that want anarchy, some want socialism, some want capitalism, some are socially liberal, some are socially conservative, etc.... Exactly who are you referring to, when you say the Government isn't doing the will of the people? What percentage of the people's will should be the yardstick by which it can be determined if the will of the people is being served? You do understand that we live in a Federal Republic and not a Democracy. There's a distinct difference.

www.answers.com...

republic

Form of government in which a state is ruled by representatives elected by its populace.

IN BRIEF: A government where supreme political power is exercised by elected representatives acting for the citizens.

In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power. — Cicero (106-43 BC)




As Madison pointed out, the representative principle militates against the irresponsible exercise of majority power, for it makes a large republic possible, and it is difficult in a large republic for any faction to become a majority. According to these authors, a large republic would foster the formation of many factions, and this sheer multiplicity of interests in turn would create shifting coalitions, which would hinder the formation of an oppressive or irresponsible majority. Furthermore, because of the checks and balances and separation of powers between different branches and levels of government, any upstart tyrannical faction would encounter many legal and institutional roadblocks.


en.wikipedia.org...

Democracy-

Majority rule is a major principle of democracy, though many democratic systems do not adhere to this strictly - representative democracy is more common than direct democracy, and minority rights are often protected from what is sometimes called "the tyranny of the majority". Popular sovereignty is common but not universal motivating philosophy for establishing a democracy.

The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek dēmokratia (δημοκρατία) (literally, rule by the people) formed from the roots dēmos (δημος), "people,"[4] "the mob, the many"[5] and kratos (κρατος) "rule" or "power".[6]

A characteristic of representative democracy is that while the representatives are elected by the people to act in their interest, they retain the freedom to exercise their own judgment as how best to do so.

reply to post by BlueRaja
Fascinating response, except for the last part, where reps can use their own judgement, so in other words, their agenda. Every politician has an agenda, be damned what they say while campaigning, they all say whatever we want to hear just to get elected, then they give the finger to those whom, elected them, they have their own agenda to fulfill.

Perfect, Liars, cheats and theives, all of them.

I's still like to see Ron Paul get some air time.

Originally posted by saturnsrings
reply to post by BlueRaja

 

Fascinating response, except for the last part, where reps can use their own judgement, so in other words, their agenda. Every politician has an agenda, be damned what they say while campaigning, they all say whatever we want to hear just to get elected, then they give the finger to those whom, elected them, they have their own agenda to fulfill.

Perfect, Liars, cheats and theives, all of them.

I's still like to see Ron Paul get some air time.

Like it or not, that's how the Founding Fathers set up our system of Government. That's why you pick the politician that most closely resembles your philosophies, and if they end up in left field from what you thought, you don't reelect them. What we need is term limits for Congressmen and Senators. That way, that limits the number of times idiots can reelect folks who aren't serving their constituents.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

Originally posted by COOL HAND
Aren't there rules about submitting heresay articles around here? If not, there should be.

I am not sure I see a problem here, anyone who joins the military takes an oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies foregin AND domestic.

Why is this suddenly a shock to people around here?

Those domestic enemies would most likely be government officials who find ways to circumvent the constitution. I have no idea do you?