Guns, what good are they....?

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.” – George Washington

"God created man, Samuel Colt made them equal."

If that ain't enough, personally speaking, I'm old, weak and disabled but I'm a good shot. Without a weapon I would be an easy mark. With one I'm the equal of any man. And I have the DUTY to protect my family and my fellow man from harm.

You're opinion of guns seems to be shaped by the fact that you, or a member of your family, personally haven't been a helpless victim of a violent crime,,,YET. On the other hand as a paramedic for 25 years I dealt with the victims on a daily basis. I have no fantasies, I know that some of my fellow man are just inherently evil.

The bad guys are out there with guns already and always will be. Concealed carry laws are about increasing the ratio of good guys to the bad. If you wait for a cop to come to your aid you'll just die inside a chalk outline.

reply to post by andre18


Let's rephrase one of your points-

why would anyone want to own anything that had the "potential" to kill?

Let's compile a list of everything that falls into that category.

Here's a reason why people want to own guns. Because they like to have even odds against criminals who also have guns/knives/etc.... Self defense is an inalienable right.
Another reason is because our founding fathers knew that an armed populace would be much harder to subjegate by a tyrant, than an unarmed populace.

ok lets say it happens the you describe it the 17 y/old gets the gun and manages to shoot school kids that would be very sad indeed. if the shooter doesn't turn the gun on himself/herself and get caught by police, i Guarantee the shooter will get at least a life sentence, maybe even "never to be released "
oh one more thing all schools in Australia have camera surveillance and or security guard s ( for drug dealers, pedophiles, shooters, knifer's )
now for the 21 y/old ..... remember that form that has to be filled out at the shop that form has the details of the person that showed the id ( 21y/old ) if the
weapon is recovered by police its just a matter of looking up the records to find out who owns the gun and the owner more than likely will spend more time in the can than the 17y/old and besides if this happens my response to this would
be wait 1 more year and get the gun yourself that way its his problem not mine!
at the same time i would notify NSW police about him and they will investigate it further....no if's

reply to post by andre18


Well we are not allowed to have automatic weapons in the US either not unlike Australia you do have to have a class 3 federal firearms license in order to possess any of the automatic type weapons.. as far as gun owners in Au you have quite a large contingent of people that are collectors and shoot for sport according to what I have read now there are politicians that are becoming more outspoken about fire arms and firearms ownership in AU again according only what I have read..

I might add that in the U.S. there is a waiting period to purchase any type of gun while a background check is performed, also to carry a handgun you have to attend concealed carry classes and pass a test to obtain a concealed carry permit, there are exceptions to this rule, Arizona for example you can carry a gun on your hip like in the old west and that is what the people of arizona like and how they have voted to support their viewpoint..

so our gun laws are not really all that different with one exception we are not required to have a gun safe (you should have one) I don't know any shooters though that don't at least have some type of trigger lock (to protect the kiddies at least) I have lock on mine that feeds down through the barrel and into the action rendering it unusable until the lock is removed..

Also the only gun I have is a family heirloom it has been handed down to me from my grandfather to my father and I won't give it up period it means a lot to me though the only use it gets is when I take it out and clean it but still it means a lot to me...


at any rate our laws are not that different in the apples to apples comparison it would seem though that unlike Australia the urbanized areas in the U.S. have yet to inflict their opinions on the people of rural areas and probably won't..

Respectfully
GEO

[edit on 1/31/2008 by geocom]

Since nothing stops a 17 year old from getting in their parents car and running down people in the streets, I guess we should ban cars too.

Good point, didn't think of that......
I’m willing to accept I guess you could say….defeat…. throw in the towel……etc….

Points have been proven......guns can have a beneficial purpose....only and I will say only, when it comes to people defending themselves against criminals.... but that is to say.....as long as there are criminals, people will always have a reason and a right to protect themselves against them....

I guess this is all to do with law, poverty etc.....I’m just trying to think if the world could ever reach a point where the need for guns will disappears, how could that happen....world peace etc.....

I always thought guns were negative in a world peace scenario, but now I guess it's not so much the weapons that are the problem....but the people who use them...............

Well all I can say in that case is this thread has actually changed my mind on guns....WOW.....but one last thing.....for all you people that think the government would try to take control and dominate the public NWO style because they have no guns and are defenseless........lol, even Australians will agree that our government, the police etc, isn't doing anything of the sort....so you guys can say good by to that theory....

40 Reasons For Gun Control
Significant portions of this article are excerpted from Michael Z.
Williamson's excellent and witty piece, "It's amazing what one has to believe to believe in gun control"

1. Banning guns works, which is why New York, DC, & Chicago cops need guns.

2. Washington DC's low murder rate of 69 per 100,000 is due to strict gun control, and Indianapolis' high murder rate of 9 per 100,000 is due to the lack of gun control.

3. Statistics showing high murder rates justify gun control but statistics showing increasing murder rates after gun control are "just statistics."

4. The Brady Bill and the Assault Weapons Ban, both of which went into effect in 1994 are responsible for the decrease in violent crime rates, which have been declining since 1991.

5. We must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid.

6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals.

7. An intruder will be incapacitated by tear gas or oven spray, but if shot with a .357 Magnum will get angry and kill you.

8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet.

9. When confronted by violent criminals, you should "put up no defense -- give them what they want, or run" (Handgun Control Inc. Chairman Pete Shields, Guns Don't Die - People Do, 1981, p.125).

10. The New England Journal of Medicine is filled with expert advice about guns; just like Guns & Ammo has some excellent treatises on heart surgery.

11. One should consult an automotive engineer for safer seatbelts, a civil engineer for a better bridge, a surgeon for internal medicine, a computer programmer for hard drive problems, and Sarah Brady for firearms expertise.

12. The 2nd Amendment, ratified in 1787, refers to the National Guard, which was created 130 years later, in 1917.

13. The National Guard, federally funded, with bases on federal land, using federally-owned weapons, vehicles, buildings and uniforms, punishing trespassers under federal law, is a "state" militia.

14. These phrases: "right of the people peaceably to assemble," "right of the people to be secure in their homes," "enumerations herein of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage others retained by the people,"
and "The powers not delegated herein are reserved to the states respectively, and to the people" all refer to individuals, but "the right of the people to keep and bear arm" refers to the state.

15. "The Constitution is strong and will never change." But we should ban and seize all guns thereby violating the 2nd, 4th, and 5th Amendments to that Constitution.

16. Rifles and handguns aren't necessary to national defense! Of course, the army has hundreds of thousands of them.

17. Private citizens shouldn't have handguns, because they aren't "military weapons", but private citizens shouldn't have "assault rifles", because they are military weapons.

18. In spite of waiting periods, background checks, finger printing, government forms, etc., guns today are too readily available, which is responsible for recent school shootings. In the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's, anyone could buy guns at hardware stores, army surplus stores, gas stations, variety stores, Sears mail order, no waiting, no background check, no fingerprints, no government forms and there were no school shootings.

19. The NRA's attempt to run a "don't touch" campaign about kids handling guns is propaganda, but the anti-gun lobby's attempt to run a "don't touch"
campaign is responsible social activity.

20. Guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20.

22. Women are just as intelligent and capable as men but a woman with a gun is "an accident waiting to happen" and gun makers' advertisements aimed at women are "preying on their fears."

23. Ordinary people in the presence of guns turn into slaughtering butchers but revert to normal when the weapon is removed.

24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows.

25. A majority of the population supports gun control, just like a majority of the population supported owning slaves.

26. Any self-loading small arm can legitimately be considered to be a "weapon of mass destruction" or an "assault weapon."

27. Most people can't be trusted, so we should have laws against guns, which most people will abide by because they can be trusted.

28. The right of Internet pornographers to exist cannot be questioned because it is constitutionally protected by the Bill of Rights, but the use of handguns for self defense is not really protected by the Bill of Rights.

29. Free speech entitles one to own newspapers, transmitters, computers, and typewriters, but self-defense only justifies bare hands.

30. The ACLU is good because it uncompromisingly defends certain parts of the Constitution, and the NRA is bad, because it defends other parts of the Constitution.

31. Charlton Heston, a movie actor as president of the NRA is a cheap lunatic who should be ignored, but Michael Douglas, a movie actor as a representative of Handgun Control, Inc. is an ambassador for peace who is entitled to an audience at the UN arms control summit.

32. Police operate with backup within groups, which is why they need larger capacity pistol magazines than do "civilians" who must face criminals alone and therefore need less ammunition.

33. We should ban "Saturday Night Specials" and other inexpensive guns because it's not fair that poor people have access to guns too.

34. Police officers have some special Jedi-like mastery over hand guns that private citizens can never hope to obtain.

35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.

36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun.

37. "Assault weapons" have no purpose other than to kill large numbers of people. The police need assault weapons. You do not.

38. When Microsoft pressures its distributors to give Microsoft preferential promotion, that's bad; but when the Federal government pressures cities to buy guns only from Smith & Wesson, that's good.

39. Trigger locks do not interfere with the ability to use a gun for defensive purposes, which is why you see police officers with one on their duty weapon.

40. Handgun Control, Inc. says they want to "keep guns out of the wrong hands." Guess what? You have the wrong hands.

reply to post by andre18


Poverty is no excuse for criminality, nor is it the cause. There are plenty of law abiding citizens who don't have much in terms of material wealth. Criminals are people who have decided that their needs/wants/instant gratification outweigh anyone else's rights/property, regardless of their socio-economic status.

reply to post by geocom



Actually thats not exactly true, Any citizen that can pass the federal background check can own a NFA weapon, Full auto, explosive ect...

one fills out the required BATF forms with fingerprints ect..
pays a one time $200 tax and your good to go.

the trick is finding a PRE-1986 registered NFA firearm, mac10's are the cheapest at around $3,000, AK'/M16 type weapons go for around $10,000-$20,000, and M60/Miniguns go often for around $100,000-$200,000


NFA weapons are NOT illegal to own in the USA, Post 86 NFA weapons are.

These prices put these guns our of the reach of not only criminals but most Citizens as do the extensive background checks that come with the package...

American owned NFA weapons are by far the SAFEST privately owned weapons anywhere.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by fritz

 

Yep.....people kill people......but if you take away the guns....it just becomes that little but harder.....You can’t have a war between countries without guns, without missiles, without weapons…..you take away the most lethal arms and the world’s a happier and safer place…

Well you got me there. There's just no denying wars were so much better before guns were invented. And people were so much happier, and safer, being slaughtered by swords and spears!

OK, all countries need to disarm. Who goes first?

[edit on 31-1-2008 by Muddyrider]

Originally posted by andre18

Well all I can say in that case is this thread has actually changed my mind on guns....WOW.....

andre18, one more thing.. although I am glad you have "changed your mind"
I REALLY want to know why you brought up 9/11 in your OP.

That really bothered me that someone would think 9/11 had anything to do with the subject.
Are you just uninformed or did the media or others on the web put it to your mind that 9/11 somehow controls everything everyone does now?

Seriously.. I don't see how anyone could come up with 9/11 as any kind of catalist for gun ownership.

reply to post by C0le


I agree with Cole here. Following the steps to own an automatic weapon is easy in the US. It's just basically an ATF form and a written statement from your local Law Enforcment Official stating that you alone are responsible for the weapon.

I've researched this and it's easy. It's also easy to aquire a silencer as well, if your background holds up.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by JackCash]

Originally posted by andre18

Well all I can say in that case is this thread has actually changed my mind on guns....WOW.....but one last thing.....for all you people that think the government would try to take control and dominate the public NWO style because they have no guns and are defenseless........lol, even Australians will agree that our government, the police etc, isn't doing anything of the sort....so you guys can say good by to that theory....

You have much to learn Grasshopper.

reply to post by gormly


I just suspected that after 9/11, most people would be more and I have to say a lot of people are....paranoid of terrorists...I suspected people would think more guns would somehow protect them from planes crashing into buildings or buses exploding..... lol….

[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18

Points have been proven......guns can have a beneficial purpose....only and I will say only, when it comes to people defending themselves against criminals.... but that is to say.....as long as there are criminals, people will always have a reason and a right to protect themselves against them....

It's OK to dislike guns, but to dislike guns because"They Kill People" doesn't make sence. There will always be bad people in the world, nothing can change that. Bad people are going to do what they want to do regardless of what weapon they have. Look at prisoners. they are constantly fighting. The majority in prison are probably there because some sort of gun charge, but not all. Even though they don't have guns in prison, they still use shanks that they have made. They improvise, adapt and overcome. It will always be that way.

It's OK to own guns. There are measures in place to help weed out the bad people who buy them, but it won't stop them.

All we can do is strap ourselves and hold down the fort.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by gormly

 

I just suspected that after 9/11, most people would be more and I have to say a lot of people are....paranoid of terrorists...I suspected people would think more guns would somehow protect them from planes crashing into buildings or buses exploding..... lol….

[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

Israeli citizens kill terrorists before they detonate themselves on a semi-regular basis.

reply to post by JackCash

All we can do is strap ourselves and hold down the fort.

Would that not be a never ending struggle that would go on forever....?

Muddyrider

Israeli citizens kill terrorists before they detonate themselves on a semi-regular basis

Can you show me an example like a link of how Israeli citizens are doing this…?


[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18

Originally posted by voxel
Since nothing stops a 17 year old from getting in their parents car and running down people in the streets, I guess we should ban cars too.

Good point, didn't think of that......
I’m willing to accept I guess you could say….defeat…. throw in the towel……etc….

I DID IT!!!

*99 red balloons drop from the ceiling*

I WIN!!
I, um...

Originally posted by andre18
Well all I can say in that case is this thread has actually changed my mind on guns....WOW.....

...WE DID IT!!!

*99 more red balloons drop from the ceiling*

Originally posted by andre18
but one last thing.....for all you people that think the government would try to take control and dominate the public NWO style because they have no guns and are defenseless........lol, even Australians will agree that our government, the police etc, isn't doing anything of the sort....so you guys can say good by to that theory....

Uh, oh. Look here is something that takes a little getting used to but it is a historical fact:
States don't last forever.

In fact, most states existence are limited to a few hundred years of prosperity before it all falls apart. Empires if they are lucky and oppressive can last for about thousand years before they are replaced.

I think failure ultimately comes about because governments don't ever deal with corruption they simply hide it away.

The ignorant populace has blindly accepted that government can operate in only one direction. The government can only make new laws not throw old ones away. The government can only create departments and not get rid of old ones.

As the government operates there are more laws and more policy-makers and more staff. Each of those things drain more and more wealth from the nation it claims to be supporting until one day the house-of-cards collapses. The big rats flee the sinking country with a large amount of the wealth and are accepted with open arms as "exiles" in other places. Meanwhile, the country they ran, pillaged, and fled erupts into civil war.

The rich from their far-off and protected new homelands will then use the civil war to increase their profits and control. They will use their power and money to actually pick the victorious group that will become the new government of the civil war ridden country and the whole cycle will start over again.

Jon

reply to post by C0le


My bad I am sorry for the mis information and thanks for the correction..
is good to know like I said I am not a collector or even what you would call an enthusiast but I have one heirloom that I would like to keep (will keep)

I do however think that people are really sheeple in humans clothing and that as soon as the police and military give up guns I will consider giving up mine or making it useless


Respectfully
GEO

automatics where never legal and semi-automatics where banned Australia wide in 1996 since then the only people to have semi-auto's in Australia are shooters with a letter "H " on their licence..mainly for farmers that have a farm of 3000+ acres and professional shooters.... I have a mate thats a farmer in Moree NSW and yes i hunt on his farm for pigs and rabbits...his property is 60,000+ acres in size but he still cant get a semi-auto licence for pest control. the only other people able to own semi-autos is the police,military, politicians.
criminals on the other hand get guns illegally..... these gun dont come into australia through the system these guns are like drugs that get picked up
by customs doing drug busts and the like ... theses guns aren't sold in shops or are they registered theses are illegal and law abiding citizen dont buy theses gun why not you may ask cause we know that they carry a 20 YEAR jail sentence if caught with them.....

Originally posted by StillWater
40 Reasons For Gun Control

Great stuff!

I'll add a few gun-grabber corollaries of my own:

1) Guns are like Tolkien's One Ring, with a magical power to corrupt otherwise law-abiding people and make them go amok in public places. How else do you explain school shootings, mall shootings, church shootings?

2) Guns are an instrument of brutal violence and were responsible for the carnage of the Stone Age, the Dark Ages, and the Middle Ages.

3) All people are good; evil, crime, and violence are illusions. It is fascist elitism to say otherwise. Although all people are good, some people are more good than others, such as police, and only these need to be armed to help enforce the public good.

4) Only paranoids believe that they need some sort of protection from "bad" people. These paranoids must be forcibly detained and drugged for their own good, and isolated so not to infect the public with their delusions. Such delusions include ones of judicial corruption and favoritism leading to bad people going unpunished.

5) Criminals are not bad people, just poor and misunderstood. They obviously need the understanding and support of the public, plus generous handouts of life-giving essentials such as food, shelter, cigarettes, alcohol, heroin, coc aine, crack, meth, porn, and child porn. The also need to assert themselves through crime, to build up their self esteem.

6) Gangsters are victims of a racist, sexist, patriarchical society and have a legitimate need to rebel, and to socialize with others like them. They show a positive socialization by forming gangs - rather than forming cults or being alone like autistic schizophrenics.

7) Society is so horribly racist that the oppressed races need to aggressively claim their fair share. All white people, even those who claim poverty, are exploitative millionaires with Swiss bank accounts and slaveholding ancestors. Whiteys have a moral duty to give all they own to
people-of-colour who ask for a handout.

8) Since people are all equal, they are all capable of equally settling their differences by physical means. Only cowards need to resort to guns and other weapons. If they feel that their life may be in danger, they are paranoid. If they feel they are physically incapable pf being manly, they need to pump iron at the local gym.

9) The social milieu of 14-year-old children in public schools, including their conflict resolution schemes, is a shining model. Adults need to follow it, rather than hiding in their homes with only their guns for company.