Guns, what good are they....?

Originally posted by andre18
Can you show me an example like a link of how Israeli citizens are doing this…?

It starts with preparedness:


Jon

reply to post by Voxel


So you’re accepting that even America will eventually crumble……?

Wow....look at that photo.......

[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

reply to post by andre18


Of course and given our insane levels of corruption, greed, and waste it will probably be long before Australia!

Jon

Originally posted by JackCash
Speaking as a former Marine, NO!

My M4-A2 and I are acurate up to 500 yards. Try to stun someone from that distance.

500 yards? So what sort of activity is your target doing that you're envisioning blowing them away from 500 yards "in self defense"?

But to really answer the question, Would you yourself like to be in a situation that an unknown armed intruder in your house at night has a Glock or Smith & Wesson that can reach out an touch you from any distance in your house while you have to get within arms length to stun them?

You are protecting yourself and your family, why whould you want to give an intruder the upper hand. You DON'T know what they are armed with. You have to be prepared.

While I agree having a weapon around for a "just in case" situation is a fairly decent policy, none of those situations call for a stockpile of military-grade weapons, to be honest. You can take down some jackass in your house with a saturday night special just as easily as with that 500-yard thing of yours.

A question though, how often does this become a realistic concern for someone? I'm maintaining that for the most part this is an insecurity based on your government telling you to be paranoid and suspicious of the people around you. Even if you have the bad luck, what are the odds that you'll actually be able to make use of that gun?

I'm sure as a former marine, you understand that MOST people aren't. And that there's a difference - a huge difference - between being trained and awake in a situation you know will lead to combat, and being rudely awakened by an armed and alert intruder when all you have is a few hours of practice at the range under your belt, if that.

Switzerland is said to have the very lowest crime rate in the world....why?
its a well know'en fact that when a man or a woman comes of age they must do military service and when they finish their term they take their service rifle and sidearm and ammo home with them and they keep it in their possession
for the rest of their days........so if an army decides to invade switzerland they don't only have the current army to deal with there is also the rest of the adult population as well......

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by JackCash
Speaking as a former Marine, NO!

500 yards? So what sort of activity is your target doing that you're envisioning blowing them away from 500 yards "in self defense"?

perhaps sending bullets back at you!

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
500 yards? So what sort of activity is your target doing that you're envisioning blowing them away from 500 yards "in self defense"?

What a good laugh I got Trying to imagine a high-power sniper rifle with a huge scope, used to protect a house from a mile away.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

500 yards? So what sort of activity is your target doing that you're envisioning blowing them away from 500 yards "in self defense"?

I see what you are trying to say, but I was just making a drasting statement that a gun or rifle would be more of a protectant than a stun gun in the event of an intrusion. But on the other hand, say you are a farmer and in time of a food shortage, I could see a rifle with an accuracy of a few hundred yards coming in handy to protect the food supply of you and your family.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
While I agree having a weapon around for a "just in case" situation is a fairly decent policy, none of those situations call for a stockpile of military-grade weapons, to be honest. You can take down some jackass in your house with a saturday night special just as easily as with that 500-yard thing of yours.

A question though, how often does this become a realistic concern for someone? I'm maintaining that for the most part this is an insecurity based on your government telling you to be paranoid and suspicious of the people around you. Even if you have the bad luck, what are the odds that you'll actually be able to make use of that gun?

I'm sure as a former marine, you understand that MOST people aren't. And that there's a difference - a huge difference - between being trained and awake in a situation you know will lead to combat, and being rudely awakened by an armed and alert intruder when all you have is a few hours of practice at the range under your belt, if that.

I don't believe that I would classify a shotgun and an M4-A2 as a "stockpile of military grade weapons". True, the M4-A2 does look menacing and is a semi auto, I actually bought this for what I would call fun. I joined a local fish and gun club and I shoot targets. The shotgun is fitted for turkey hunting. We have to get our food somehow.
Gobble Gobble

I don't think that you need as you say a few hours of target practice to know how to aim and shoot down a hallway. you don't need military training to know how to pick up and shoot a gun. You can learn that from all of the crime that we have in the world.



I'm sorry, but my quoting skills are lacking.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by JackCash]

[edit on 31-1-2008 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 31-1-2008 by JackCash]

Andre18,

No I dont believe in world piece. I believe anyone trying to sell world piece is a phoney and a counterfitter. A politician trying to sell snake oil to people they look down on and folks they dont think know any better.

I do know better...how is this you may ask?? Most certainly I will tell you.
Read a history book.

The track record of men and peace is horrible...all of it...from recorded time unto today. For some reason this concept seems to escape you.

Do not misunderstand me Andre 18. Peace is a valuable commodity and a commodity after which to be eagerly sought.

It is for this reason I do not covet my neighbors goods. If they have goods I see which I see useful and worthy ...I go out and work to purchase these goods myself. Remember that "risk" buisness??Or I build them myself....often here too involving risk. It is not free.

I do not live in a state of fear. Remember what I told you that I do for a liiving. I am not alone in this. Many people work in hazardous occupations. We do not walk around in fear. We will not walk around in fear of others with guns.

I hold little value in the concept of world peace. It is a pipe dream affordable only by people who watch to much television...star trek et al.
I hold little hope for the prospects of world peace coming through the UNited Nations....they are such a phoney baloney counterfit operation.

Peace begins at home with proper training..not a television education ...but training from parents who teach respect for others and the concept of the privateness of property...ie..private property.
Private property is a concept which in the future will be severely lacking in both education and goverenments as they try to force thier will on the public. Through education first...but eventually by force...using guns. Imagine that!!?

Once again..we are Yanks here...not feudal serfs. Beholden to the soverign.
We do not run around here asking..." by your leave Lord??" yes governor ..yes governor!! We do not do this here.

All of this begings with private property...private ownership of property...which includes our guns...of any type.

Orangetom

for defense and sport. defense because it's a god given right (and I say that very loosely, meaning simply that it is an innate right that no one has the right to take away). and sport because, well grab a gun and go to a shooting range, you'll probably suck your first time. shooting is a skill that has to be honed.

btw, if you say guns kill people, you also have to say the same for knives, sticks, baseball bats, bricks, keys, and every other object on the world that could be used to kill someone.

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by photobug

 

Scenario: 1 Person breaks into a house with no gun (A), the person living there has no gun. (B)

Most of the time a burglar will only rob an empty house, if someone suddenly turns the light on and appears to be there, they’ll usually escape quickly…or, stab the person…..in this case…..a stun gun could have been used instead of having nothing to defend themselves……also a stun gun won’t kill the person…..a handgun, shotgun etc will..

Scenario: 2, Person breaks into a house with a gun, the person living there has no gun.

In this case person B defending themselves with a stun gun would have been more beneficial as well compared to not having anything.

Scenario: 3 Person breaks into a house with a gun, the person living there has a gun.

In this case both persons would shoot at each other, killing either person…..If person B had a stun gun, it would be the same result only person A would be stunned instead of dead…..

Scenario: 4 Person breaks into a house with no gun, the person living there has a gun.

In this case person B would kill person A, but if person B had a stun gun, person A would still be alive and would just be paralyzed for a few minutes……

And so…..a stun gun…..simply solves the defending you home scenario….no need for handguns machine guns shotguns etc.

[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

You are missing the entire point of my post. If you want to argue semantics then a stun gun is still a weapon and yes stun guns have killed people. If you want to debate then debate upon my points rather than posting 4 differant scenerios of a break in. Answer and analyze my original post rather than try to derail the conversation with a bunch of scenerios. I can provide just as many scenerios if you wish but that is not the point. Look at the big picture.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
I can't believe this stupid thread has made it to 8 pages. Christ already. Everyone keeps repeating the same damn things over and over just to get some 14 year old in Australia to stop repeating his same line over and over.

What a waste of space.

AMEN Brother

Originally posted by andre18
reply to post by C0le

 

So…..what, you don’t believe in a world peace ever happening, or better yet, you don’t want it to happen….?

[edit on 31-1-2008 by andre18]

Here is the real answer right here. Andre wants world peace and is using that as his defense agaist guns. Let's see world peace = one world government = no one has guns = everyone gets a chip = NWO = antichrist


THats It Andre wants to be the antichrist!!!! This whole thread now makes sense. Andre isn't concerned about muggings and break ins he wants the entire world disarmed so he can take control.

reply to post by andre18


First, guns (synonymous for firearms) are smaller versions of cannons, which is used to propel objects into other objects, much like what people use with sticks and stones. Basically, guns are good for survival and get the job done faster than spears, for example.

What is it with people and wanting guns…?

People want to have some fun as in hunting sports meant to kill sentient beings, like games and wildlife.

Is it to defend your home….?

People work hard to live in a home containing inanimate object of desires (or sentimental values for some) that needs to be defended from outside intruders who would otherwise break and enter to steal their precious junk.

To defend yourselves….?

People didn’t choose to live in the land of the free and feel threatened by those who want to do bodily and mental harm and ultimately loose their lives for whatever reasons.

So..…is there some kind of scare in America[...]

Scare tactics in America work well in the minds of its citizens through televised programmings (lots in the media) and this encourages people to own guns in the first place.

or it just the overwhelming desire to have one, to own one…..?

People may have a subconscious need to fulfill their phallic desires to control their environment, like pesticides is to weeds. Owning a gun provides a sense of security (i.e. a baby blanket) from the 'bad' people, too.

Or is this something to do with 9/11……

This 9/11 event is part of the reason why people should uphold the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution as set forth by our ‘Founding Fathers’ -- to protect and defend against tyranny and in self-defense.

It's always the young that die and the older politician planning their death!? Something is REALLY WRONG with our world!

I think you have it backward -- guns don't kill, they protect, they save lives.

If somebody is about to shoot someone else and you don't have a gun because you think guns are bad, then you can't help much to save that life. Your not in a position to do a good thing and sadly enough we're in a world that actively promotes inhumanity not by ignorance but by design. Human birth is the most precious and special gift of all life forms and it would be unfortunate to have to take someone else's life to to save a life but it isn't wrong.

There are better means to kill and control humans, being worked on all the time. That is the basic reason behind WWII, Area51 and the practice arenas like Panama and Iraq. If the technology ever reaches the point that the masses of people can safely be annihilated and the rest controlled completely that will take place at the drop of a hat. Until then, keeping people weak, sick, brainwashed, distracted, degenerated and disarmed will be the goals. So they can have the guns if they give me untraceable particle beam, rail, or laser weapons instead.

I suggest that you try thinking from the premise that guns are good and not feel compelled to swallow the poisonous fodder being fed to you by those seeking to perpetuate their job security by exploiting you.

Some people, like myself, like to go hunting. I live in Wisconsin, I go up north during hunting season with my dad. What's wrong with going Duck hunting? And Deer are a major problem here with their disease they are suffering and so many car accidents. Deer Hunting is strongly encouraged here. (Though I have yet to do so. Duck Hunting is more exciting to me, but I might go next year)

I believe in the right to own guns so much so, that I vote according to the candidates choice on the subject. I do not want to loose my right.
Years ago I did hunt but not anymore. I am licensed to carry concealed and do so. It is like the old saying "don't leave home without it". I don't. I also have hand guns in a couple of places in my home for self defense. Why? It is simple. I am female, getting older and unable to match someone in physical strength. I also am out in the public with my elderly father &/or handicapped brother - making us a perfect target for those who prey on the "helpless" like wolves.
Some might say I am paranoid. No, as a matter of fact I am more informed than the average citizen. I say so because for several yaers, I worked at the police, fire and ambulance dispatch for our county. I know how many calls came in for real and not just the few published in the paper. It would mentally blow the sheeple away if they had a clue as to how much is really going on around them in what they believe is their "safe" little community. I realize not all counties are as populated as mine and would have far less crime but I live here and deal with - here.
To be licensed to carry in our state, you must pass a background check for crime, mental conditions, and even any domestic situations even if there were no arrests made. You have to complete a gun safety course, including proficiency at the range. You have to have 5 signatures of county residents certifying your personality and mental state as "fit". I know that criminals carry weapons without all of this, but having the ability at least keeps me on equal ground as them. Thank you Sam Colt!
Have I used it? Yes. Thankfully, I have never had to shoot anyone, but I would not hestitate to do so to protect my family or myself. The time I used it was a little different. The sight of it was enough to make the assailant flee. In brief, here is what happened. I had to go into a bad part of the nearby city alone. I always keep my doors locked because it gives you time to flee if you can or at least react should a problem arise. It did. When I stopped at a red light, a very large man ran up to my car and grabbed the door handle trying to jerk it open. It would have been a robbery, car jacking or worse. The lock stopped him and as he was glaring at me, I pulled my pistol and aimed it through the side glass in his face. His hands went up and he backed away. Had he made a move to break the glass I would have pulled the trigger. I doubt anything would have changed his mind faster than staring down the barrel of a gun.
It it right for everyone? Probably not. It is a personal decision and if you are unsure of your actions, don't own it. If you feel safe and think the police are everywhere, all the time to protect you, fine, BUT - do not try to convince me.
I do believe if you choose to own one, even if only in your home, take the time to research, learn and practice. Find a gun that you are comfortable with many times there are shooting ranges at stores where you can "rent" a gun at the store, go next door and shoot it so you know. Research the ammo and have a proper load. Mine are made to disentigrate in my target. I do not want a bullet that would pass through a "perp" into an innocent bystander farther down field. You must know and protect your "back stop". If you own then keep in practice. If you are not familiar with it's operation it will not do you any good.
Just my two cents -

Wow!!!

Great post Stillwater. I too have a CCW. I am also a licensed Ham Radio Operator. I often listen to my trunk tracking scanner so I am aware of how much does not get into the local news formats. Some of my fellow Hams are in the seccurity buisness at night. THey have good relations with the local constabulary and often relay informations to me about what is going on with the local wildlife.

I have little intrest in matching someone in physical strength. I have intrest in being left alone and to make my own decisions on managing my propertys and person.

I ,too, am often out and about with my elderly parents.

I do not hunt though I would not leave it out in the future. I would rather fish as I dwell close to the coast and work on the river here in shipbuilding.
Fishing just suits me much better.

I do not watch sports with the exception of a fishing program. I consider many sports to violent and the commercial appeal in sponsoring the program to be insulting. I have no intrest in living second hand through the gods of sports and sports heros nor the commercial buisnesses which support the same. Most sports are to violent for me.
I will not be in front of a television set when kick off time for the superbowl arrives. I will most likely be with my parents or shopping or both. After kick off time in this country is a great time to be in the stores as they are noticably empty.

Agree very much with your rationale if one decides to own a firearm..even a rifle...practice ..read, research, and then practice more.

I also taught myself reloading from books and with tips and hints from the members of the gun club to which I belong. Lots of Hams there too. I enjoy a relaxing day at the reloading bench as much as shooting. A good cup of coffee a sandwich and snack and I am good for hours at said reloading bench.

I greatly dislike the premise of which many here who oppose gun ownership utilize as if none of us can see it or its implications.

That premise or assumption attempting to play through unchallanged, is that we are automatically guilty of some crime or burden simply because we are gun owners. There is something flawed in us. We are something less becasue of our ownership of firearms.

This is why my emphasis here on "the rights of private ownership of property" This is an American Right..and all our other rights extend from this singular right to own and regulate our private property. We are Soverigns and not subjects.

We are not guilty without trial/due process or in the court of public opinion because we have the right to own or not own private property.

We are not less than other peoples because of this and we have no intrest in joining the beliefs and standards of the rest of the world.

Good post you have made Stillwater..especially about what is going on in our citys daily.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I'm 6'4", I weigh in the neighborhood of 270 lbs., very little of it excess. I'm a big guy. I've met few women, in fact make that none, that match me in size or strength. If I'm out to do no good, an average unarmed woman stands little chance against me save through luck. Give that same woman a hand gun of reasonable calibre and the training to go with it, and all bets are off. The playing field just became tilted in her favor, in fact even if I have a gun the odds still favor her, 'cause I'm a much bigger target. Handguns for defense are all about equalling the playing field.

Handguns and/or rifles are tools, nothing more and nothing less. It takes skill and intelligence to use them correctly, not to mention discipline. My weapons are for 3 purposes: 1) self-defense, yeah I can defend myself without a handgun, but why should I? The only time I'm likely to use my handgun for self defense is in my own home, so under the right circumstances, I'll use lethal force and let a jury of my peers decide. 2) Sport. Target shooting. Fun for all the family. Teaches discipline. Dev elopes responsibility in children. 3) Filling the pantry. I don't do this as often as I used to, but the way things are trending these days, that is going to change... You'll notice that not one of these reasons has anything to do with Godlike power...