Let's try to cast a different light on this.

What if your government made policies based on the assumed existance of Zeus?

How about if people preached to you about Zeus while you went about your daily business?

What if politicians had to publicly reaffirm their belief in Zeus every now and then?

What if the commander in chief said that Zeus spoke to him?

You might get fed up and decide that you'd like to tell all of the believers that they're nuts whenever you can.
Or, a weak minded person might join up with the Zeus believers, either just to fit in or because of fear of the afterlife.

I really don’t think I could have said it better myself…...I mean, I’ve thought about it like that…..but to put it into words like that……nice……




[edit on 23-1-2008 by andre18]

I dont think that christianity is a belief system. I think it is an identification.

The religion of christianity is based on an assumption that everyone is born something else and is capable of changing into a christian by an act of personal intellectual assent. However I believe the Bible teaches something quite different from the religion that goes by the name of christianity.

A hebrew family entered into a contractual arrangement with one of the gods which guaranteed them enormous benefits in exchange for carrying his seedline down through history. The deal required they keep themselves separate from the peoples around them. Take a look at this gods reaction whenever they adopted a multicultural outlook example - "The Holy Seed has mingled itself" followed by severe ethnic cleansing. See the return from babylon etc (hey dont get mad at me, go read the book for yourself).

However, its more complex because the original kingdom was divided into 2 nations circa 731bc and they are always spoken of as two independent nations from then onwards in the Bible. Different books of the bible record their independent rulership dynastys and the fact they often went to war with each other, usually allied with other nations. They are well known in histories of other nations and were never called Israel. Thats a name we apply today but it was not the name they used in their nations npr is it the name their neighbors knew them by.

Eventually, their contracted god gets real fed up with them, implements the penalty clauses in their agreement and one nation gets removed entirely from the land of promise and disappears from the Bible story.

This is where I believe christianity enters the picture. The nation which remained, turned out to be even more unreliable than the one that was removed. So their contracted god makes a decision to restore the first one and terminate the second one which remained. He says he will restore the first under a new name and with a new agreement which he will give them of his own choosing. They will be called after himself but will suffer a loss of original identity. The nation which remained would keep their name and full awareness of their identity to their shame.

in due course (centuries later) someone came as a representative of this god out of the second nation but this Christ states categorically that he came exclusively to the other nation that went missing because his own would reject him.
He activates an exit clause from the penalties of the original contract by fulfilling all its terms and conditions and sends emissaries all around the world to tell the good news to the scattered descendents of the missing millions.

This new nation of ethnos peoples are non geographically defined but are recorded wherever they are found as the christians. in this way their god renames them after himself in such a way that they have no recall of who they once were. The word has no religious meaning whatsoever. it simply identifies by a new term, descendents of an old peoples as foretold in the book of jermiah ch 33 vs 31 etc.

If those who claim to believe what the Bible says care to check it out, the hebrews contracted god also told them on the exodus from egypt that they would multiply by a factor of 1000 times before the end of this age. Do the maths and it works out at about 1/3 the worlds current population or basically all the nations of christendom irrespective of their self-perceived theological positions of neutrality or whatever. The identification as christian as understood universally to mean the nations of the west is a political reality and not a religious grouping.

So I believe the going to hell stuff refers to this group only and the traitors among them and ruling over them conspiring with their enemies to bring them down. Deserve to go to hell? Too right they do! And they will.

The same Bible states that following the coming cleansing and when there is only a remnant left after the conflagration, that the other nations will continue as they are with their own governments, their own laws, life will go on as normal except there will be a new order in Jerusalem which all will have to respect but it will not be under the new madam (President).

I like George Washington's take on this. In his vison of the end of the Republic after the invasion of America is reversed by alien technology, he sees a new type of society based on the regional magistrate pattern that was originally setup in the days of Ruth. A new day and a new world order with no fed to be corrupted. Real order out of chaos but not the false image about to be unleashed which will be hell on earth for those who are not christians equally with those who are.

Originally posted by andre18
Ok so show me the links to the verses that say it…….accountability….lol…..

There are two of them I can think of off the top of my head. One is David's son who died only days after he was born. David said he will not morn because even though his son cannot return to him, David will go to his son after his own death and that his son was in Heaven. In the New Testament, Paul talks about "default salvation" for children. He talks about how we are all saved in the beginning at birth and in our childhood. Once we reach the age (it differs on an individual basis) then we are responsible to accept Salvation.

most countries have different ages where children can be charged for such things as murder...

It has nothing to do with man's definition. We'll take the Jews for example because it is the most famous. We know at 13, boys become a "man." In other countries, you might be considered an adult at 18 or 16 or 12. It has nothing to do with the price of tea in china. Our rules are not God's rules. God takes it all on an individual basis as to when each person was capable of understanding and accepting. You could be 50 years old and mentally handicapped all your life. Guess what? You never understood- free ticket to Heaven. You could be five years old, heard the Gospel throughly, die, but get a free ticket to Heaven because you weren't developed enough to understand. The "age" isn't set because everyone matures at different rates.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
If that is the case are you saying all missionairies should not take the gospel to every corner of the world? Assuming most reject it then mathematically would be doing their society a disservice. I'd be interested to hear where in the bible a statement backing that statement up is.

Lot's of people, including Christians, have asked the same thing and said if this is the case, let's all burn our Bibles, tear down our churches, and make it illegal to ever say the name of Jesus. This way no one could be accused of rejecting God. The New Testament makes it clear "those who have heard and understood but still reject the Gospel" are damned. So why spread Christianity then?

What are we told? Not that the truth makes us free but knowing the truth makes us free. It liberates us, transforms us on the inside, and gives us a personal relationship with God. It frees us from Satanic bondage and gives us authority. It says we are the light of the world. Jesus came to give us light, freedom from spiritual bondage, and call us "out of darkness." Compare Christian societies or societies that were based on Christian principles to the others. Freedom vs. bondage.

But this is somewhat controversial. Some also point out the verses that state it will be worse for those on judgment day who rejected the Gospel than it will be for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The way I see it is that is not the heart of God to condemn those who never heard of Him. Only those who knew, understood, and said, "No thanks!"

Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
Let's try to cast a different light on this. What if your government made policies based on the assumed existance of Zeus? How about if people preached to you about Zeus while you went about your daily business? What if politicians had to publicly reaffirm their belief in Zeus every now and then? What if the commander in chief said that Zeus spoke to him?

Then I would be so sick of hearing about it and wouldn't want to come to an internet forum and make multiple posts asking about it. Maybe one or two just for debate or to ask some questions but not to obsess over it or belittle those who do believe in Zeus and try to answer my questions according to their belief. I would simply roll my eyes and move along.

[edit on 1/23/2008 by AshleyD]

AshleyD,
You said..>>But this is somewhat controversial. Some also point out the verses that state it will be worse for those on judgment day who rejected the Gospel than it will be for the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. The way I see it is that is not the heart of God to condemn those who never heard of Him. Only those who knew, understood, and said, "No thanks!" <<

So again it is based on a feeling not on the word. If man is sinfull and separated by God through inheritance of sin from Adam + his own sin.then it follows that All are lost without Christ. Yes, I agree with a previous post that there are exclusions to this for those under age of accountability(a cultural based age so deemed by God)...I do believe there are verses written by Paul that allude to the possibility that those that have not heard may somehow be held to a different standard and recognize a creator based upon their perception of the world and their own heart...

I don't think their will be any legal cases in heaven that God loses.

I always looked at hell as a marketing tool the cash cow as they say. I'm a pagan so what do I know about your marketing anyway.

mikell

Originally posted by camain
Your not taking into account the time, in which the bible was written. This goes back to whether or not the bible should be taken literally.

They bible also says that only 144,000 will be rulers in heaven. It goes on to mention the other sheep, that though there not rulers are still going to heaven.

like you said don`t take it literaly.
like if it says the 144,000 will rule in heaven.

we just assume that it means 144,000 people.....ITS NOT
144,000 is one of the Key harmonics/frequency of our universe.
And I mean this scientificaly as well as spiritually.

and i`sn`t it ironic that in the bible we are refered to as SHEEP...WOW


[edit on 23-1-2008 by Maya432]

Well since I am actually the Angel Gabriel, I can tell you, you will find out.


P.S. Have you ever noticed how the religious zealots are Soooo long winded???


[edit on 23-1-2008 by antar]

It seems absurd for such a complex and superior being to punish his own creations.

I find it hard to believe that man, with all his capabilities, desires, and complexities was created merely to sit and bow and scrape and worship. (let alone for eternity)

"All Christians or Jews, who have faith, believe that they will go to Hell if they sin. Allow me to present this parable. Each Christian is like a man who stands at the top of a cliff: he knows that if he commits a sin, he will fall to his death, or worse, to eternal torment. You have said that Hell is worse than any possible earthly misfortune. No matter how severe his earthly misfortunes or his desires, no man who was a faithful Christian, would commit a sin; that is, jump off the cliff to eternal torment. You have said that all men, including faithful Christians and Jews, are sinners. It follows that not one Christian or Jew since the beginning of time, ever really believed that he would go to hell. Because if he did believe it, he would not sin: he would not jump off the cliff if he believed that Hell and eternal torment awaited him below. All men do jump off the cliff; all men do sin. Therefore, not one in all these centuries really believed in you. It follows that God did not come into their hearts any more than he did into mine a few moments ago. Therefore God has no right to expect them to act in a Christian manner or to have faith in him. Therefore, God has no right to punish them or send them to Hell. Therefore your God is not just. Therefore your God is not God."

Originally posted by Maya432
and i`sn`t it ironic that in the bible we are refered to as SHEEP...WOW

I've seen you use this "sheep" reference many times in the past but was too lazy to explain it. Now seems like a good time.

If you notice, every time a sheep is referenced, there is a very specific correlation to the shepherd. The shepherd tends to the sheep, protects the sheep, loves the sheep, goes out of his way to save the sheep, dies for his sheep, and keeps the sheep. He never controls the sheep.

This is exactly what Jesus does and what pastors are instructed to do, "feed my sheep" and "watch over the flock." Never control them or harm them. Even die for them if necessary. That's one awesome shepherd.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
This whole anti-abortion thing?

Bad evil Christians! How dare you try to protect the unborn. And it has nothing to do with "punishing women." It has to do with "protecting babies" regardless of what you have been told. You can have an orgy consisting of 50 people. None of my business. But yes, I will stand up for children. If that makes me a bad guy, then I'm proud to be called a bad guy in a society that declared the bad good and the good bad. Throw around your labels if it floats your boat.

Our foreign policy? Your team needs there to be an Israel

Not necessarily. There are many, many Christians against Israel and they are growing in numbers. This saddens me greatly. You can assume I'm pro Israel and you will be correct. I'm the most pro-Jew non-Jew you will probably ever meet. Be thrilled I'm not in politics.

My tax dollars are going towards YOUR stupid apocalypse prophecy.

Er... Many thanks to you and your tax dollars? But take heart. We think it's "us" who is doing this. Not so. Israel has much, much opposition yet they are still coming out ahead. The whole world can turn against Israel but what is meant to happen will happen.

My family stands to be impacted by YOUR god's obsession over genitalia and who does what with them.

Has fire and brimstone reigned down on anyone recently for what they do in the bedroom? I don't even know what you are referring to (no need to explain) so I don't know what else to say.

Protestant Christians... keep acting terribly surprised when other people point this out and express discontent.

You can count me as one who is not surprised.

Nice chatting with you but what man declares as evil, those who know Him can see the good. Man can say God is evil because there is death, for example. We can say God is merciful to allow death and not keep us confined in this ungodly world in immortal bodies. Thank God this is only temporary and we can be reunited with him.

It seems absurd for such a complex and superior being to punish his own creations.

I find it hard to believe that man, with all his capabilities, desires, and complexities was created merely to sit and bow and scrape and worship. (let alone for eternity)

"All Christians or Jews, who have faith, believe that they will go to Hell if they sin. Allow me to present this parable. Each Christian is like a man who stands at the top of a cliff: he knows that if he commits a sin, he will fall to his death, or worse, to eternal torment. You have said that Hell is worse than any possible earthly misfortune. No matter how severe his earthly misfortunes or his desires, no man who was a faithful Christian, would commit a sin; that is, jump off the cliff to eternal torment. You have said that all men, including faithful Christians and Jews, are sinners. It follows that not one Christian or Jew since the beginning of time, ever really believed that he would go to hell. Because if he did believe it, he would not sin: he would not jump off the cliff if he believed that Hell and eternal torment awaited him below. All men do jump off the cliff; all men do sin. Therefore, not one in all these centuries really believed in you. It follows that God did not come into their hearts any more than he did into mine a few moments ago. Therefore God has no right to expect them to act in a Christian manner or to have faith in him. Therefore, God has no right to punish them or send them to Hell. Therefore your God is not just. Therefore your God is not God."

Originally posted by memory_nuke
"All Christians or Jews, who have faith, believe that they will go to Hell if they sin."

I cannot speak for Jews but Christians do not believe we go to Hell if we sin:

"For all have sinned and have fallen short of the the glory of God and are justified freely by his grace through redemption that came by Christ Jesus." Romans 3:23

Translation: We all make boo-boos. Those boo-boos will be forgiven freely. In order to have your boo-boos forgiven freely, you have to...

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16.

Everyone makes boo-boos. Belief in Jesus forgives those boo-boos. That is what Christians believe.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Bad evil Christians! How dare you try to protect the unborn. And it has nothing to do with "punishing women." It has to do with "protecting babies" regardless of what you have been told. You can have an orgy consisting of 50 people. None of my business. But yes, I will stand up for children. If that makes me a bad guy, then I'm proud to be called a bad guy in a society that declared the bad good and the good bad. Throw around your labels if it floats your boat.

It's not what I've "been told". It's what I've seen. Given that unwanted pregnancies - and thus abortions - decline significantly if there is ample education on hte subject as well as readily available contraceptives and prophylactics, why oh why are the vast majority of anti-abortion groups also against sex ed, why are they also against contraceptive? Why do they instead say "just save it for marriage" - and thus propagate the myth that the only people who ever get abortions are scared teenagers, rather than the reality that most abortions are performed on married women who already have kids and don't want any more? What is the anti-abortion solution to the male side of the pregnancy? If the woman is to be required by law to carry to term, why are there no anti-abortion organizations that want the male in the equation to be responsible for supporting mother and child, without chance for appeal as the current child support system allows.

The idea is that pregnancy is a punishment from god visited upon women for acts of indiscretion. This is the same reason these organizations oppose any advances in the treatment of STD's, why nobody in these organizations adopts children, and why not a single one of them offer postnatal care or support services.

Not necessarily. There are many, many Christians against Israel and they are growing in numbers. This saddens me greatly. You can assume I'm pro Israel and you will be correct. I'm the most pro-Jew non-Jew you will probably ever meet. Be thrilled I'm not in politics.

If i had to pick an Abrahamic faith that disgusts me the least, it'd be Judaism, so I'm in the same boat. I do recognize there's a gulf of difference between the Jewish religion and people, and the nation of Israel. Equating the two is like saying Mexico and Catholicism are the same.

Er... Many thanks to you and your tax dollars? But take heart. We think it's "us" who is doing this. Not so. Israel has much, much opposition yet they are still coming out ahead. The whole world can turn against Israel but what is meant to happen will happen.

Oh don't worry, I would have just bought a meal for a homeless guy or something with it. Building a concrete wall three miles into another people's land is a much more Christian use of it, I think!

Has fire and brimstone reigned down on anyone recently for what they do in the bedroom? I don't even know what you are referring to (no need to explain) so I don't know what else to say.

I have gay relatives. I have relatives who have had abortions. I have friends and family from all walks of life that have done all sorts of thing that assorted lobbies that point to the bible as their backing want to criminalize, because, as we all know, the Christian god is utterly incapable of achieving anything that the united States congress doesn't sign into law first.

You can count me as one who is not surprised.

Surprising!

Nice chatting with you but what man declares as evil, those who know Him can see the good. Man can say God is evil because there is death, for example. We can say God is merciful to allow death and not keep us confined in this ungodly world in immortal bodies. Thank God this is only temporary and we can be reunited with him.

Oh, don't get me started on this crazy fear of death thing... You know that's your camp too, right, the whole perennial fear that if you're not good enough you'll spend an eternity as the subject in sadistic tortures that only an omnipotent being with eternity to think about these things could possibly devise.

So let me guess - despite your belief that death is a godsend to free you from your earthly binds in the sinful world, you don't work as a minesweeper in some war-ravaged eastern European country, nor do you volunteer to care for ebola victims in Uganda, do you? Why is it that the people most certain that they'll reap an eternity of joy in the afterlife always seem to be the most evasive towards death? Even the pope keeps two inches of bulletproof glass between himself and the rest of the world.