Do people who aren’t Christian deserve be tortured in hell?

Originally posted by skyshow
reply to post by AshleyD

 

blah, blah, blah, blah, Mathew verse 5 chapter 3, blah, blah, blah, blah, Jesus, blah, blah, blah, must be saved, blah, blah , blah, blah....

ZZZzzzzzzzzz, god your posts bore the dickens out of me...do you ever say anything groundbreaking, unique or profound, ever???

Nope. Not really. But as you might have failed to notice, the person posted the same thing twice at separate intervals (not a back to back accidental post). So, I assumed they wanted an answer.

Do you ever have anything new to say or is it all Christian bashing. The world will never know. I'm assuming a thread about Christianity will be calling for a Christian answer, correct? Maybe the world's logic turned upside and I have yet to notice.

reply to post by AshleyD


Nope they just want to continue your two groups little bicker war.
And you enthusiasticly take the bait.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
why oh why are the vast majority of anti-abortion groups also against sex ed, why are they also against contraceptive?

I think your biggest gripe regarding contraceptives lays with the Catholic church. The the ones who believe contraceptives are ungodly. Not sure what Protestants think about them.

Why do they instead say "just save it for marriage"

Because it seems to alleviate a lot (not all) of problems. Try to think of some of the problems that would decrease if there was abstinence until marriage.

and thus propagate the myth that the only people who ever get abortions are scared teenagers, rather than the reality that most abortions are performed on married women who already have kids and don't want any more?

No clue. I don't know much about abortion statistics except that only about 2-3% of them are due to incest, rape, and the mother's life being in danger. The other 97% are mainly acts of convenience. However, how did a topic about hell become one on abortion?

What is the anti-abortion solution to the male side of the pregnancy? If the woman is to be required by law to carry to term, why are there no anti-abortion organizations that want the male in the equation to be responsible for supporting mother and child, without chance for appeal as the current child support system allows.

You see, this is one of the things abstinence until marriage would help alleviate. Notice the term alleviate. Not cure.

If i had to pick an Abrahamic faith that disgusts me the least, it'd be Judaism, so I'm in the same boat. I do recognize there's a gulf of difference between the Jewish religion and people, and the nation of Israel. Equating the two is like saying Mexico and Catholicism are the same.

Exactly. The Jews (as a race or religion) basically stick to themselves. They aren't out there evangelizing or driving anyone nuts. They are known to keep to themselves.

Oh don't worry, I would have just bought a meal for a homeless guy or something with it. Building a concrete wall three miles into another people's land is a much more Christian use of it, I think!

Your dreams are soon to come true. Promise. That wall and security fencing is going to come down. Just watch.

I have gay relatives.

I do, too. One gay brother I adore, his boyfriend who is equally wonderful, and about 10 gay and lesbian friends. They all know I'm a Christian but also know they are loved immensely and accepted by me. But they know what the Bible says about it so it isn't my place.

So let me guess - despite your belief that death is a godsend to free you from your earthly binds in the sinful world, you don't work as a minesweeper in some war-ravaged eastern European country, nor do you volunteer to care for ebola victims in Uganda, do you?

Why is it that the people most certain that they'll reap an eternity of joy in the afterlife always seem to be the most evasive towards death? Even the pope keeps two inches of bulletproof glass between himself and the rest of the world.

I answered this in another thread. No, I don't help Ebola victims in Africa because I am married and have children here. But I do what I can do and that includes hospital volunteering. I almost joined the peace corps actually until my husband and I met and that was the end of that dream. If I don't put my son first, who will? Got to take care of him first and do what I can in my own backyard.

[edit on 1/23/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
reply to post by AshleyD

 

Nope they just want to continue your two groups little bicker war.
And you enthusiasticly take the bait.

The way I see it is that they aren't bringing up anything or asking anything I didn't back when I was a belligerent atheist myself. As much as I moaned, groaned, and criticized, my ears were hanging onto every word and answer Christians gave me. Sometimes I hope that is really what is going on in their heads. It's at least nice to give them the benefit of the doubt instead of immediately assuming they are brain-dead, hateful people who hate something they know nothing about and have no interest in but keep bringing it up over and over again. Or maybe I'm naive.

Not believing in Jesus is not a sin then?

And how is Heaven depicted in the bible? And why did Jesus come into this world? Does this mean God's old system in the Old Testament failed? If we did fail, he should have assumed that his own creation would be ignorant in nature, however it seems he failed to understand this.

Believe in Jesus = Heaven
No belief in Jesus = Hell

Is this not a punishment for not believing in Jesus? If not, what is it?

reply to post by AshleyD

It's at least nice to give them the benefit of the doubt instead of immediately assuming they are brain-dead, hateful people who hate something they know nothing about and have no interest in but keep bringing it up over and over again.

You see.
Right here your using the same langauge they use just aimed at them rather then them aiming at you.
Neither side is in the right in this case.
Agreeing to disagree is the only sane course of action here, for both sides.
They seek to rile you (and Christianity) up.
There are a great many people out there that believe that once they get someone riled up, they win (and are right), end of story. And there is no arguing otherwise, or really point in arguing with them really, might as well talk a brick wall into being soft.

I am not Christian.
I decided it was wrong. For me.
But I am different in that I don't need my path to be the loudly proclaimed "right one for everyone".

Christianity is waning in power. You can't deny that.
Alot of atheisms leaders (yes they have leaders Dawkins comes blaringly into mind) want that power and deny it vehemently, of course.
It's the great wheel turning again.
Just as Christianity once took the power from other beliefs.



*goes back to being ignored*

[edit on 23-1-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by AshleyD
I think your biggest gripe regarding contraceptives lays with the Catholic church. The the ones who believe contraceptives are ungodly. Not sure what Protestants think about them.

I'm actually talking about anti-abortion groups on either side of the schism. Their problem is with women having sex, period, not with abortion itself.

I do want to point out that my issue is with organizations rather than individuals. Be anti-abortion all you want, but the moment you start trying to make it law for someone else is when it becomes a problem.

Because it seems to alleviate a lot (not all) of problems. Try to think of some of the problems that would decrease if there was abstinence until marriage.

And imagine if food just fell from the sky whenever we asked for it. Why if that happened, it would cure most of the problems in the world, true story. Unfortunately, manna does not rain from heaven and people are going to screw. That's reality. If you're going to try to make laws based on utter fantasy, you could at least be useful and try to get the Unicorn declared an endangered species - you know, just in case.

No clue. I don't know much about abortion statistics except that only about 2-3% of them are due to incest, rape, and the mother's life being in danger. The other 97% are mainly acts of convenience. However, how did a topic about hell become one on abortion?

Actually it's still a topic about how members of your religion wish to impose that religion on the lives of those around them. Abortion happens to be a very visible aspect of this.

You see, this is one of the things abstinence until marriage would help alleviate. Notice the term alleviate. Not cure.

Food falling from the sky would help too, but I think I already covered that ground.

Exactly. The Jews (as a race or religion) basically stick to themselves. They aren't out there evangelizing or driving anyone nuts. They are known to keep to themselves.

Which makes me wonder why according the the bible, Jesus is going to massacre most of them for not worshiping him. You HAVE read Revelations, right?

Your dreams are soon to come true. Promise. That wall and security fencing is going to come down. Just watch.

I'm fully aware. Israel is in for some big, big changes in the next decade. Either the nation will catch up with the rest of the postcolonial world, or we'll have baked glass from Cyprus east to the Hindu Kush. I'm wagering on the first, but I'm an optimist

I do, too. One gay brother I adore, his boyfriend who is equally wonderful, and about 10 gay and lesbian friends. They all know I'm a Christian but also know they are loved immensely and accepted by me. But they know what the Bible says about it so it isn't my place.

That's awesome, and I hope you do notice my critique is the religion at large, not you personally. You just happen to be an adherent who's handy Unfortunately for your beloved relatives, there are many strong movements based on Christian theology to make people like them criminals under secular law. If you can call it secular after that point.

Originally posted by memory_nuke
Not believing in Jesus is not a sin then?

Unfortunately (and I wish I could tell you want you want to hear), yes. But that is what sets Christianity apart from many other religions. Real Christianity- not man made dogma frequently found in churches like Catholicism. Instead of rites, rituals, works, and running around in circles trying to "earn" Heaven, we are told the only thing required of us is to believe in Jesus. Then, "if you love me you will obey my commandments." As in to love Him and one another and taking care of each other. That is a transformation that comes after we are saved. Unlike other religions that say we must be "perfect" to win salvation, Christianity says come to Jesus and He will make you perfect in His eyes.

And how is Heaven depicted in the bible?

We are given some descriptions but the main thing is "no eye has seen or ear heard what the Lord has in store for those that love Him." There will certainly be no more death, disease, sorrow, loss, etc. But that is what it is not- not what it is. It will be better than we can imagine. No point in going into all the descriptions.

And why did Jesus come into this world? Does this mean God's old system in the Old Testament failed?

Yes and no. It failed but we are told it was supposed to fail. A common misconception is that the law was imposed on the Jews. This is not necessarily so. They demanded a law, judges, and kings. So, they were given them. The foreshadowing of the law in regards to Jesus is amazing. The purpose was to show how hard it is to earn our own salvation through rites and rituals. We are told not even the temple leaders did it perfectly so how could the typical layman? So, Jesus did not abolish the law, he fulfilled it by paying the debt of the law, past, present, and future.

Absolutely not, but people who think such things do, because they are allowing a brainwashing religion that advocates the destruction of nature by saying the plants & animals we created for us, & to actually believe we we created from the bloody dust off the ground is ... disgusting, & that's an understatement; I've just had to have a shot of gin after seeing how all this REALLY ties together... - Conspiracies, & mind control... Welcome to ATS, or if oyu are not new, welcome to me , when I feel like saying it as I feel, as long as I maintain that I in no way intend to insult your beliefs, & amm saying that we have to as a MASS, the populatoin of the world, WAKE UP! It's time to smell the extraterrestrial induced corruption that formed the government, & will eventually enlave us because they created not only religions that keep us from connecting TRULY spiritually with the earth, & why is it that that government doesn't tell us of the benefits of facing north? (we are very sensitive to the magnetic field of the Earth. - The Pyramids, created by advanced (most probably ET Reptilian, AKA Drako technology are aligned to these forces. - So, as to whether there is a hell or not, ... I have no idea, but I assume there are realms refered to as the 4th dimension, & that is where the demons & evil spirits reside. - Do a search for Alexander Wilder, & see that she ahd conducted rituals, & there have been incidents where creatures were brought out of these dimsension, or raelms, whatever you want to call them. I think, as Dacvid Icke says, 'God save us from Religion' , basically. - We need to look inside ourselves, & really concider that this may really not need to be an apocalype, & that we CAN reclaim our Planet from the MASSIVE deception & if you look at all the accounts of the ancient civilizations, they all have records of their leaders being able to 'shapehift' from & to human & lizard form, & back again. - They interbred with us after they people realized their true nature, & that they were in fact, not gods, & they went undercover, by mixing with our genes. - The fact that the genealogical research into the 13 royal bloodlines that move into outr current government goes back to those times, thousasnds of years ago, & there was a time when we lived in harmony with the Earth, prior to the physical manifestaion of these malevolent strains of the cosmic Reptilians, but we ... REALLY have to wake up man, because hell does exist actually, mate; There are underground bases, the size of cities, containing ... a disturbing range of creatures that would blow your mind... - Many will say, simply because I am speaking as if I have witnessed these genetic experiments firsthand, ' Well, when did you see it, where's the proof? ' .... I could go now & find irrefutable evidence, but I challenge you to look it up yourself;

Hint (keywords): Denver Airport , (google) & try just typing 'underground bases' in You Tube.

Originally posted by criticalunity
Absolutely not, but people who think such things do, because they are allowing a brainwashing religion that advocates the destruction of nature by saying the plants & animals we created for us, & to actually believe we we created from the bloody dust off the ground is ... disgusting, & that's an understatement;

Just gonna stop you there, because i really have to argue. This is actually one of the smarter parts of the bible. It expresses the belief that mankind is created from the earth, that there is a bond of flesh and bone there, and that mankind is meant to be stewards - i.e., caretakers, of creation. You'll notice that the most sacred places in scripture are all outside the cities and the temples, out in the wilderness. Agricultural and pastoral lives are lauded over more urbanized careers.

The Bible does not tell mankind to denude and despoil - rather it states that god is entrusting humankind with the caretaking of what he has created. Which, to me, goes a long way towards showing that the biblical god probably isn't all that sharp, as far as deities go.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
They seek to rile you (and Christianity) up.

I'm not remotely riled. Promise.

Christianity is waning in power. You can't deny that.

You are correct. It is waning and we cannot deny it. But that is exactly what we are told will happen in the last days. Christianity will continue to grow, grow, grow until everyone knows about it world wide and then plummet with a great falling away.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I'm actually talking about anti-abortion groups on either side of the schism. Their problem is with women having sex, period, not with abortion itself.

I hear what you're saying but I can't tell you what is going on their heads or what their true intentions are. But I can speak for myself: Again, have an orgy with 50 people. Not my business. But I love babies and kiddos. The concept of abortion breaks my heart and did so back when I was an atheist. It's horrifying.

...you could at least be useful and try to get the Unicorn declared an endangered species - you know, just in case.

hehehe. Are you talking about the reference to unicorns in the KJV? That is a mistranslation due to an idiom that doesn't translate well into English. The original Hebrew simply means "one horned beast." Like the rhino.

Which makes me wonder why according the the bible, Jesus is going to massacre most of them for not worshiping him. You HAVE read Revelations, right?

The Messianic Jews are actually stated as having special protection in Revelations. Us Christians and Orthodox Jews will be screwed, though.

That's awesome, and I hope you do notice my critique is the religion at large, not you personally. You just happen to be an adherent who's handy

LOL! That literally made me laugh out loud.

Lol, I had first said, that according to Christianity we end up in hell if we sin. You replied this is not true.

I then said "then not believing in Jesus is sin then?"

You replied:"Unfortunately (and I wish I could tell you want you want to hear), yes. But that is what sets Christianity apart from many other religions. Real Christianity- not man made dogma frequently found in churches like Catholicism. Instead of rites, rituals, works, and running around in circles trying to "earn" Heaven, we are told the only thing required of us is to believe in Jesus. Then, "if you love me you will obey my commandments." As in to love Him and one another and taking care of each other. That is a transformation that comes after we are saved. Unlike other religions that say we must be "perfect" to win salvation, Christianity says come to Jesus and He will make you perfect in His eyes."

So it is true we end up in hell because we sin. Thanks for contradicting yourself!

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Originally posted by memory_nuke
Lol, I had first said, that according to Christianity we end up in hell if we sin. You replied this is not true.

I then said "then not believing in Jesus is sin then?"

So it is true we end up in hell because we sin. Thanks for contradicting yourself!

Are you high? Put down that doobage! (just playing with you). Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else but you said Christians go to Hell if we sin. That is not true. Christians sin because they are human, too, but they are saved through grace.

Belief in Jesus (accepting He came to earth and died for your sins): Heaven.
Denying Jesus and saying, "No thank you," to free salvation: Hell.

I'm sorry if that is not what you want to hear but that is what we believe.

"And behold, I am coming quickly,and My reward is with me, to give to EVERYONE according to his work"

Revelation 22:12

He doesn't say every Christian. He does say his not his and her. But I don't believe Jesus will exclude girls.

A lot of people don't even understand what believeing in him means.

Believing in him means loving God and eveyone like yourself. If you do that you believe in him titles don't mean anything.

Love is all you really need. Loving everyone and everything by defult means you love God whether or not you believe a higher power exists.





[edit on 23-1-2008 by Shawn B.]

Originally posted by andre18

Without giving it a whole lot of thought Christians will frequently say all those who don’t accept Jesus deserve to go to hell, they don’t deserve salvation, they deserve to be tortured forever.

Hi andre/
You are wrong,any reasonable person who has a faith in God would not say such words.
Hell was created for Satan and his demons.
Everyone deserves to be forgiven, and many will be forgiven if it is in Gods Mercy.
Where did you get 'tortured' from?

But do they really think that…. you see when there’s a movie with a lot of violence a lot of blood and gore in it, Christians are usually the first ones to stand up and argue that they don’t want that sort of thing displayed to their kids or available for the general public to see. But they’re the first one to say people deserve that sort of treatment, that pain, that immense physical and emotional pain is the only thing that we all actually deserve because we’ve all fallen short of the glory of god.

A movie is a movie, it may depict real life happenings but still is a movie.
Again why would a child want to watch a movie about blood and gore?
I dont disagree with a child knowing about war and what is has done to mankind...this is real life,it has happened and children should be made to understand between fact and fiction.
Why do some parents allow their children to play video games with shooting and blood and gore?
Again no person deserves torture or that which is depicted in the movie 'Hostel'....it is a movie, not 'hell'.
When one is 'short of the glory of God' it means they have fallen away from God, not that they will be tortured as in the movie....
God will hear all true repentance....it is then when we suffer in our sins(away from God) that we come to know God.
It is through suffering that we become aware of what it's like to feel alone and have no compassion.
Hades......a place away from God when Adam and Eve sinned(missed the mark)
Hell was created for Satan and his demons........this will be for eternity away from God, living in a state similar to what life was on earth...one will live with their own pain and all that comes with it.....it will be suffering without compassion, for Satan knows not what compassion is.

The movie Hostel, from what I’ve heard from my friends who have seen it, it is a very graphic movie with some very graphic torture scenes. People getting their legs severed, their arms severed, just really, really bloody graphic deaths and a lot of screaming and a lot of pain….

The movie 'Hostel' is not hell.
It is a movie that depicts 'torture' .....sadly this has happened to real people and will happen again...

I challenge any Christians who thinks unbelievers deserve to go to hell to go rent that movie, go watch it all the way through, sit down and watch the entire movie and watch how the actors portray being tortured.

Again you are wrong........nonbelievers do not deserve to go to hell as depicted in the film 'Hostel'....this is a movie and it is people that are doing the torturing, not God!
If anything like this was to happen and it will, it wont be God, but Man who will do this.....for man that has no fear of God, will justify only himself.

After you’ve seen that, come back and tell me if you still think I deserve that same treatment. I’ve seen some videos like faces of death and clips of people shooting there brains out, and I’ll tell ya, it’s extremely disturbing to see that and to see the pain and torment these people are going through. After seeing something like that, I can’t sit by and say, yes I deserve the same treatment for not accepting Jesus and everybody in the world deserves the same treatment.

Andre no one deserves that kind of torture.....not accepting God will not get you 'torture' as depicted in the movie 'Hostel'....not accepting God will be your own 'souls' torture.
In heaven there are many mansions(as told by Christ in the Gospels)and so each will receive according to ones life on earth.....each to his own glory of the state of the soul.
Likewise in 'hell' each will receive according to his/her won sins and life on earth....

Is there a single Christian out there who could watch a movie like Hostel or watch the movies like faces of death and look at it saying yes, that ten year old child who died not excepting Jesus deserves that sort of treatment? That kind and soft spoken Hindu monk who died worshipping in his own faith deservers to be burnt alive, deserves to be screaming in pain for ever…..

Gods Mercy is above all things!
I would suggest you don't watch movies like that.
Eternity for each soul begins not now....it will begin after the Judgement Day of God for all mankind.
In the old Testament prayers.......

In ancient times, before the beginning of Confession, it was appointed to read an entire series of Psalms from which Psalm 51 has been preserved in the present rite, being known as the Penitential Psalm.
Then the Priest reads certain prayers, the first of which recalls King David who repented before Nathan the Prophet when he had caused the death of Uriah, the husband of Bathsheba whom David loved.
After being rebuked by Nathan, David confessed, I have sinned against the Lord!
Upon hearing David's repentance, Nathan proclaimed God's forgiveness, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die (2 Sam. 12:13)

You shall not die?
No, not bodily death..for all Mankind will experience 'bodily death'.......
You will not die?
You will once again be united with God...
After Jesus Christ spilled His blood was man allowed to enter Heaven and be reconciled with God.
It is said that Adams Skull layed beneath the 'Cross' of Christ where Adam was forgiven for braking the Commandment of God in the Garden of Eden.

IX
helen

Originally posted by AshleyD
You are correct. It is waning and we cannot deny it. But that is exactly what we are told will happen in the last days. Christianity will continue to grow, grow, grow until everyone knows about it world wide and then plummet with a great falling away.

I know it's not addressed to me, but I like mouthing off, so I'll start here. All three Abrahamic religions - Judiasm, Christianity, Islam - and all their spinoff groups, tell themselves this. It's supposed to be "prophecy" sort of like that one, "many will stand against you" or something. It IS part of a cultish indoctrination process. Basically it's telling you "You are special because you know this, and the fact people don't agree means YOU ARE RIGHT. When this wacky religion starts waning, that's how you know it's TRUE and should be followed!" - It's a self-perpetuation system.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I hear what you're saying but I can't tell you what is going on their heads or what their true intentions are. But I can speak for myself: Again, have an orgy with 50 people. Not my business. But I love babies and kiddos. The concept of abortion breaks my heart and did so back when I was an atheist. It's horrifying.

Oh, I find the idea repugnant myself. However I find the idea of forcing women to carry through a pregnancy that they may not be able to support even more repugnant.

Usually when I state that, the reply I get is "Well, she should have thought about that before sleeping around!" or something along those lines. I'm wagering it popped into your head as well. Keep it there. Think about every meaning behind that thought.

The woman is a whore
She deserves what she got
The onus of the pregnancy lies entirely with her
There is no need to consider her further

Check out some anti-abortion sites. Know what their big problem is? As they term it, "Risk-free sex." To these people, sex should be scary and dangerous and full of punishment and retribution. But only for the female side of it (unless we're talking about gay men - you'll see a lot of anti-gay groups using the same arguments as anti-abortion groups, only they use AIDS instead of pregnancy)

It's not atheists pushing this stuff and trying to get it through legislation. It's not Jains, it's not Sikhs, it's not Jews or Muslims or Buddhists. Hell, to be honest it's not really Catholics (by and large Catholic dogma wants babies and the church provides a lot of safety nets for surprised mothers) -it's the prudish, prickish, protestants.

hehehe. Are you talking about the reference to unicorns in the KJV? That is a mistranslation due to an idiom that doesn't translate well into English. The original Hebrew simply means "one horned beast." Like the rhino.

Naw, I'm talking about dewy-eyed prancy ponies with a narwhal tooth growing out of their skulls. Huh. Now that you mention it, I have to wonder... how cool was the Middle East back during Babylonian times, before people killed off all the elephants, cut down all the trees, and turned the whole place into a few thousand miles of goat turds and dust?

The Messianic Jews are actually stated as having special protection in Revelations. Us Christians and Orthodox Jews will be screwed, though.

Well, I wish he would hurry up. The Buddhists are getting a little annoyed that his team keeps beating their kill count in this game!

LOL!

That literally made me laugh out loud.

I do try

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Naw, I'm talking about dewy-eyed prancy ponies with a narwhal tooth growing out of their skulls. Huh. Now that you mention it, I have to wonder... how cool was the Middle East back during Babylonian times, before people killed off all the elephants, cut down all the trees, and turned the whole place into a few thousand miles of goat turds and dust?

Erm wasn't that attributed to climate change?

reply to post by AshleyD


I see I got censored. I know and I guess some enjoy it like an old blanket, but I was raised in religion and went to a Christian private school, and am so bored to tears with it all; I was reading the posts here, and trying to learn from it but actually found my self just scanning words and that really was how I was feeling...it (the standard interpretation) never changes despite so many contradictions and unanswered questions. I'm not "bashing" Christianity, at least that is not my intention (I recognize that people may perceive it so). It's just that there is more to the story, and the standard "Christian" mainstream answers are not addressing this. Also they don't address the contradictions or admit that much of it is "subjective interpretation". and so my frustration is with the standard statements about it all by the "sheep" who to me come off as mindless pre-programmed robots rather than free thinking contributors. Why can't the religion be allowed to evolve, and allow for new research findings to add to the material, and throw out the material that is obviously not supported or inaccurate. Think how long it took the church at the time to finally come around and agree that the world wasn't flat. It shouldn't take that long. Why doesn't religion allow for change and innovation? Ok, so you accept the spirit of Jesus in your heart, alright, so then it should be ok to go ahead and question all that you have read and been told...try and seek out evidence for or against all the puzzle pieces...even if you find out some of it is bogus, your still going to be "saved"...

I just get so bored with the same ole' same ole; it's the same thing now as it was 30 years ago, as it was 50 years ago...the same questions the same answers, despite new findings from archiology, history, anthropology, and the sciences. It gets to where you can predict almost 100% what a Christian is going to say when someone else makes a statement or a question. The only ones I know that are even more predictable are the Mormon missionaries who are nearly 100% scripted out from the training boot camps at LDS headquarters near temple square in Salt Lake.

I know it looked like i was "bashing", but what I was really doing was trying to make a point and get people to see how redundant standard religious replies are. I also feel that the idolatry (every time I see that cross I roll my eyes, because it's a morbid execution device, and as a religious symbol was in use by other religions and cultures way before Christianity...you just walked in at the end of the movie as someone on here recently stated...even in the bible it talks about idolitry and yet what do you see featured sometimes in solid gold under a spotlite at the front of the room...a great big old electric chair er, I mean Crusifix, er I mean Cross...), materialism, political involvement and reactionary side to Christianity is actually prohibitive towards it's goal of recruiting new believers (and thus spreading the message of love and forgiveness).

Anyway, for what it's worth, JM (and a lot of other people's) HO.

[edit on 23-1-2008 by skyshow]

[edit on 23-1-2008 by skyshow]