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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
I just picked it up and read it as a book, no preconceptions etc, but obviously I needed a better understanding of the background before I tackled it and didn't give it justice. I'll try it again - however, your passion though contagious doesn't detract from the fact that I did find it a difficult read - so no immediate hurry, some day (or perhaps there is a Plato for Dummies :lol
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
It is fine if you dont remember the place where Plato says that about initiations, I am sure it is there somewhere, like you say perhaps just in a different work, and if it isnt easily accessible, it isnt that big a deal. No need to do a research project for it.
I think that it is a HUGE mistake to think of Plato as "elitist." Although TONS of philosophy teachers in modern times take great pains to leave their students with that idea of Plato. Socrates did not turn anyone away who wanted to learn from him and dialogue with him. AND he charged no fee. The charging of a fee is "elitist" as well, remember. Not everyone makes the money required to spend on "luxuries" like education. Trust me, I know. I had to perform years of hard labor, (literally) earning the money to pay for my degree.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Plato on the other hand is widely read,
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
classics.mit.edu...
If she should appear to him to be following a policy which is not a good one, he should say so, provided that his words are not likely either to fall on deaf ears or to lead to the loss of his own life. But force against his native land he should not use in order to bring about a change of constitution, when it is not possible for the best constitution to be introduced without driving men into exile or putting them to death; he should keep quiet and offer up prayers for his own welfare and for that of his country.
For the one thing which is wholly right and noble is to strive for that which is most honourable for a man's self and for his country, and to face the consequences whatever they may be. For none of us can escape death, nor, if a man could do so, would it, as the vulgar suppose, make him happy. For nothing evil or good, which is worth mentioning at all, belongs to things soulless; but good or evil will be the portion of every soul, either while attached to the body or when separated from it.
Therefore also we should consider it a lesser evil to suffer great wrongs and outrages than to do them. The covetous man, impoverished as he is in the soul, turns a deaf ear to this teaching; or if he hears it, he laughs it to scorn with fancied superiority, and shamelessly snatches for himself from every source whatever his bestial fancy supposes will provide for him the means of eating or drinking or glutting himself with that slavish and gross pleasure which is falsely called after the goddess of love. He is blind and cannot see in those acts of plunder which are accompanied by impiety what heinous guilt is attached to each wrongful deed, and that the offender must drag with him the burden of this impiety while he moves about on earth, and when he has travelled beneath the earth on a journey which has every circumstance of shame and misery.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Where the actual "source" country for this mystic truth is, we may never know. I think it is actually more likely that there are born those who discern it in every time and place. We only have the recorded words of some very few of them.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
You mention later that Plato took great pains to ensure that his work was preserved...can you tell me if there was continuity in its scholarship in the west - I had believed that much of Greek knowledge migrated east rather than west... If so, was there a point at which the study of Plato was rediscovered/revitalized in the west?
I did not, however, give a complete exposition, nor did Dionysios ask for one. For he professed to know many, and those the most important, points, and to have a sufficient hold of them through instruction given by others. I hear also that he has since written about what he heard from me, composing what professes to be his own handbook, very different, so he says, from the doctrines which he heard from me; but of its contents I know nothing; I know indeed that others have written on the same subjects; but who they are, is more than they know themselves. Thus much at least, I can say about all writers, past or future, who say they know the things to which I devote myself, whether by hearing the teaching of me or of others, or by their own discoveries-that according to my view it is not possible for them to have any real skill in the matter. There neither is nor ever will be a treatise of mine on the subject. For it does not admit of exposition like other branches of knowledge; but after much converse about the matter itself and a life lived together, suddenly a light, as it were, is kindled in one soul by a flame that leaps to it from another, and thereafter sustains itself. Yet this much I know-that if the things were written or put into words, it would be done best by me, and that, if they were written badly, I should be the person most pained. "
"Again, if they had appeared to me to admit adequately of writing and exposition, what task in life could I have performed nobler than this, to write what is of great service to mankind and to bring the nature of things into the light for all to see? But I do not think it a good thing for men that there should be a disquisition, as it is called, on this topic-except for some few, who are able with a little teaching to find it out for themselves. As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty."
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
You’re more of a poet than I am, I see loss and rediscovery as a possible explanation. A more cynical eye.
Originally posted by Masonic Light
In the Timeaus, Socrates and Timeaus are discussing virtue. They finally map out a few solid doctrines when, towards the end of the dialogue, Socrates tells Timeaus that if he *really* wants to learn virtue, he should accompany him to the Mysteries and be initiated.
Originally posted by Masonic Light
Amen, I agree completely. Plato espoused meritocracy. This can be considered "elitist", but in a good sort of way. It has nothing to do with money or influence. Plato's "elite" were those who sought justice, truth, knowledge, and virtue, and who lived by the principles they learned.
Originally posted by bonijean
Since the New Testament tells us "There is nothing hidden that won't be made manifest" I personally doubt that secret societies and mystery rites were sanctioned by the Biblical Hebrews. However, other ancient tribes practiced goddess worship which involved secret cults and weird rituals (such as human sacrifice). And for this reason Abraham was called out from amongst them to be the father of a separate nation with Yahweh as their only Supreme Deity. This was a Win-Win situation for the Hebrews!
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
… the further from the core "mystery" or "truth" you get, the more elaborate the rituals become. When you get back to the source, you should expect to find none.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Two things completely slip the minds of most readers, (and teachers sometimes.) One, you were not BORN into a "class." He makes it very clear that while it is more likely that Bronze parents will have a Bronze child, it was entirely possible that a Gold or Silver child could be born to Bronze parents, and a Bronze child born to Silver or Gold parents. It is evaluated on a case by case basis and your birth does not dictate your class…a TRUE meritocracy,…
He is describing the "nobility" of the metals. The relative natural affinity for or resistance to "corruption." Gold is considered a "noble" metal in that it is very hard to "corrupt" or tarnish. Bronze, on the opposite end, tarnishes or "corrupts" quite easily. Silver is between the two. His was a statement on the proper sort of soul to be entrusted with power, the ultimate corrupter, not some value laden statement on the WORTH of an individual. He states over and over again that the parts must work in harmony, in their naturally suited places, where they "fit" not where some one randomly decided they should go. They had to work together as each served a purpose and each was valuable to the whole. Everyone seems to forget that his Philosopher kings/queens had very little "luxury" or personal freedom. There was no benefit to power, except the benefit of a justly ruled society for all. His "lowest" class had the greatest material benefit AND the greatest degree of personal freedom.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Sometimes, either by accident or design, (as in the case of meditation practice) the "habitual mind" (the persona constructed of memories and thought patterns, "ego") is weakened, and this "truth" is "visible" long enough to impact the consciousness and actual change the "habitual mind."
….Plato firmly believed that there was a time in a persons life for learning certain types of things, which he outlines in great detail in the "Republic." Philosophy, in his mind was best learned later, though the field of a persons soul was to be tended and cared for throughout life in order to ensure the soil was fertile when it was time for the seeds to be sown.
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
"As for the rest, it would fill some of them quite illogically with a mistaken feeling of contempt, and others with lofty and vain-glorious expectations, as though they had learnt something high and mighty."
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I am struggling here, but I feel that what you are implying is that the mystery cannot be ‘taught’ by any system or ritual presentation. It cannot be taught, it cannot be preached and it cannot be learnt by rote.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
The implication here is that those who ‘see the light’ through enquiry and self-discovery achieve humility, while those who are given the ‘light’ use the knowledge for their own ends (and therefore are blind to what they have been shown). ???
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I am not sure I even grasp what the mysteries are, I am assuming they were ‘plays’..? Can you help me with this – when Plato discusses initiation into the mysteries (in the context I mention above) – to what is he referring to? Commencement on the path to understanding the truth or a version of the truth that has been developed into ritual?
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It is quite breathtaking in its simplicity. The failing of (almost) every society and civilization has been (and for the foreseeable future will be) corruption, therefore success (for the many) depends upon placing the greatest value on those that cannot or will not be corrupted. Service as its own reward, as opposed to reward for service. It seems that we have been fighting the same demons for centuries, if not millennia…
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Returning to Protagoras and the Sophists, would I be right in saying that Plato’s judgement was based not on a sense of superiority but in a belief that ‘understanding’ cannot be taught, and that to try, demonstrated Protagoras lack of ‘understanding’ (especially when coupled with pupils who felt that the information could be bought)? If someone is not ready they cannot accept the truth and more over if one does not discover it themselves they cannot believe it?
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Does Plato discuss the moral implications of this knowledge? For example the Cainites and Sethites both believed that the body should experience everything of the material world (more preached than practiced I believe) - we can see how these beliefs progressed towards predestination and we can see where they came from... In the extreme we have hedonistic beliefs, including satanism that fully embrace the material/physical experience... Does Plato discuss those that use the understanding that they have gained to exploit others? Or how the use of ritual can in itself prevent people from 'knowing' - ie those wishing to control knowledge?
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I am attempting to get my head around a number of concepts here and I apologise if I am somewhat erratic.
Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
I am not sure I even grasp what the mysteries are, I am assuming they were ‘plays’..? Can you help me with this – when Plato discusses initiation into the mysteries (in the context I mention above) – to what is he referring to? Commencement on the path to understanding the truth or a version of the truth that has been developed into ritual?
Originally posted by Skyfloating
1. What are the most ancient known secret societies and fraterneties?
Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
The Dark Mountain
So climb. Look to the bright lights ahead of you, but look knowing the path is yours and yours alone. Dont shout to those below with too much detail, their path is also theirs and theirs alone. Just shine. "
Originally posted by Masonic Light
The ceremonial ritual of the Mysteries was witnessed only by the initiated, and they did indeed take the form of an allegorical drama. Modern Freemasonry has inherited much from these Ancient Mysteries.