Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

Originally posted by Appak

Originally posted by spirit7
Appak, first off I hate to be the one to tell you this, but the Bible is correct and is the only way. There is no assumptions as far as the Bible goes, you are only allowing yourself to be mis-directed.

Why, thank you for turning me back to the right path.

I'll start hating everyone who's not a Christian. Will that make you feel better?

Also, you do not need a white apron

Thank goodness for that. Mine's blue.

and you don't have to do as many good deeds as you possibly can (although it's not entirely a bad thing)

Cool. I'll start being bad now. It's MUCH easier.

but all you have to do is open up your heart to Jesus and speaketh with your tongue.

If thou hadst but read what I have written in past posts, verily would thou have known that I have already done that.

For your information I'll repeat it. I AM A TRINITARIAN CHRISTIAN. (You know..."Father, Son, Holy Spirit"....STRAIGHT out of the Bible)

I will pray for you.

Thanks, but no thanks. I fear that someone like you might invoke the wrath of the Almighty upon me by mistake.

I'd hate that.

Verily

LOL! I obviously need to learn more about Freemasonry other then what I have been seeing. I really am new to finding out about it so I guess I jumped to assumptions a little too early. Okay friend, I will give it a rest. I don't hate anyone by the way, life is too short.

Originally posted by spirit7
LOL! I obviously need to learn more about Freemasonry other then what I have been seeing. I really am new to finding out about it so I guess I jumped to assumptions a little too early. Okay friend, I will give it a rest. I don't hate anyone by the way, life is too short.

Now spirit7,

That's a good attitude to have. As stated earlier...we ALL can learn, if we don't presume to know all there is about a subject from the beginning. There are many facets to Freemasonry, some of which I, myself, have never explored. Some are not even of any interest to me. Any of the Freemasons on-board here will gladly (and honestly) answer any questions you have and will be glad to point you to books and articles of interest that you may read for yourself.

Actually, I'm not even going to bother researching the subject because I'm too entrenched in my belief in Christianity and can't submit myself to mystery. I'm more likely not going to be buying any Chrysler products anytime soon either as I can't help but feel that I may be funding something that goes against my religion, but I don't know, just not a chance Im willing to take.

However, I love all my brothers regardless of what thier belief is.

I'm going to leave you by spreading with this word,

"Do Not Worry" - Luke 12:47

Then Jesus said to his disciples: Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life? Since you can not do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest? Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and to morrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he cloth you, O you of little faith!
And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Okay, so I'm off of the boards for a few weeks and uh...I have to say, things have taken an interesting turn.

So, I just want to address a few things real quick.

First, I want to thank my brothers for keeping an eye on this thread in my absence. So, thanx brothers!

Second, to Colloneh7:
there's no need to be rude (and yes, you were indeed rude) and you are more than welcome on this thread regardless of whether you are a Mason or not.
The whole point of this thread was to dispel (I keep using that word because I like it) rumors and lies regarding the Craft. (I find myself giving this exact same speech every few pages or so...) If you want to debate, that's totally cool. We're all for it. Just keep in mind, that we're all people here and we all have the right to believe what we believe. I myself am a Mason. I am not, however, a Christian, Jew, Muslim or so on. Many of the boys in my lodge are, and that's cool, but they would never tell me that my choice in spiritual path is the wrong one based on theirs. Uh...I don't know where I'm going with that so nevermind. Oh yeah, I meant to say, that as far as I know (y'know, being involved in the Craft and all...) Masonry is not a religion. Yeah...I'm pretty sure that we don't worship stuff and try to find salvation and so on. But, it's cool if you think that. Heck, it's even cool if you tell other people that. I really just want you to remember one very important point (and I'm speaking straight from the heart here): Masonry is about doing your best to be a good person and help other people. Yes, it's rich in allegory, symbolism and we do have a few secrets (of which you don't need to concern yourself with ) but it still revolves around helping people. That's why I started this thread, to be Open and Honest. So, go ahead and ask, poke and prod, please just don't tell us that we're wrong and involved in "nefarious deeds". Well, I mean, you can, but it's just not nice.

...Oh boy, I just realized that you got banned. Darn! I just went and typed this whole thing for you and you can't even read it! Well, if by some chance you show up here on ATS under a new alias, you have the opportunity to read this and perhaps it might make you feel a little better.

Originally posted by Appak
Masonic Light has pointed out his personal beliefs several times. I disagree with his beliefs (as he does mine) but as Masonic Brothers we respect each other's right to believe as his convictions lead him.

That indeed is a beautiful perspective to have, but, if you don’t mind me asking, how far does that extend? Does Freemasonry teach you to treat only your Brother’s beliefs with respect or does it encourage you to take that respect outside the lodge too?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Not really. The oldest known existing Masonic document, called the Regius Manuscript, dates from the 12th century. Other documents, called the Gothic Manuscripts, also date from the middle ages.

The modern Grand Lodge system began in 1717, but the Grand Lodge was formed by 4 London Lodges already in existence.

Yeah, but there are some Masons who claim that Masonry dates back to ancient Egypt and even later. This is actually the argument that I believe.

I think there is a misunderstanding regarding what is actually being referred to here. I don't think anyone claims that there were actual lodges of Freemasons in ancient Egypt, or before that, Sumer. What has been argued (and fairly cogently, at that) is that the ancient ceremonies used by the ancient Egyptians to "make kings" (Based on the legends of Osiris, Isis, and Horus) is the root and basis for modern Masonic ritual (or more specifically, the legend of Hiram Abif), and not only that, but the "true" teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, which was the secret of the Templars as well (due to their finding of some original documents beneath the ruind of Solomon's (or Herod's) Temple). It's all supposedly connected. They actually did a very nice job tying it all together (albeit with a fair amount of speculation and circumstantial evidence).

For me, the jury is still out on origins of the Craft, but I will say that "The Hiram Key" was a very interesting and well researched book, and it did challenge my views on some things. As I said there is alot of speculation and "filling in the gaps" on the part of the authors, but I do believe they were honest about it and relied on reason and logic to come to their conclusions. Their conclusions about Jesus the Christ and the original Jerusalem Church hit very close to home for me indeed. I have not read "The Book of Hiram" yet, but as I understand it, it is a continuation of the theories presented in "The Hiram Key".

I'm sure there are plenty of Masons who will say the book is total poppycock, but to each his own. That's the beauty of it. I would love to discuss that book with some knowledgeable brethren when the opportunity presents itself.

SoT, have you read "The Hiram Key"?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Appak
Masonic Light has pointed out his personal beliefs several times. I disagree with his beliefs (as he does mine) but as Masonic Brothers we respect each other's right to believe as his convictions lead him.

That indeed is a beautiful perspective to have, but, if you don’t mind me asking, how far does that extend? Does Freemasonry teach you to treat only your Brother’s beliefs with respect or does it encourage you to take that respect outside the lodge too?

Absolutely. It extends to all men of all faiths; Masons or otherwise. Masonry encourages every member to apply the teachings and tenets of the fraternity in ALL THEY DO, inside and outside the lodge. We have been deemed "just and upright Masons," and are admonished to ALWAYS act accordingly, that is, to apply your Masonry in your life as much as possible. A daunting task to be sure, and one that I'm sure that more Masons besides me have struggled with. Everyone has their moments, but another thing about Masons is that we typically do not judge one another. If a Brother is in error, we should do what we can to help him up, rather than to crucify him for a mistake. It's part of being a Brother. This also applies to outsiders, as with everything else in Masonry. It is meant to build you into a better person, not just a better Mason. Does this make sense to you? I'm trying to do it justice here.

By the way: Fantastic thread. Kudos to the OP and more especially to Rockpuck. Your posting in this thread is exemplary, and you should be commended for your hard work. Well done indeed.

Why are many african dictators who have blood on their hands (Bongo, Idriss Déby, Sassou N'gesso, Bozizé ) members of French masonic lodges ?
i thought you had to be a person of "good moral" to be a free mason , guess i was wrong

[edit on 17-8-2007 by eibwen]

Originally posted by eibwen
Why are many african dictators who have blood on their hands (Bongo, Idriss Déby, Sassou N'gesso, Bozizé ) members of French masonic lodges ?
i thought you had to be a person of "good moral" to be a free mason , guess i was wrong

Interesting addition to the thread, and welcome to the forum.

Much of French freemasonry (not all) is irregular, and I'm afraid I really don't know all that much about it. I don't know, for example, how strongly they adhere to traditional masonic principles.

It's easy to call yourself a freemason, it's quite another thing to actually be one.

Incidentally, do you have any more information about which French Grand Lodges these people are members of? I may be able to give you more information about them and how they operate.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Appak
Masonic Light has pointed out his personal beliefs several times. I disagree with his beliefs (as he does mine) but as Masonic Brothers we respect each other's right to believe as his convictions lead him.

That indeed is a beautiful perspective to have, but, if you don’t mind me asking, how far does that extend? Does Freemasonry teach you to treat only your Brother’s beliefs with respect or does it encourage you to take that respect outside the lodge too?

Ditto to Axeman's reply. The moral lessons of freemasonry are drawn straight from the Bible, although of course they are not exclusive to Christianity.

Freemasonry is best viewed as a conduit, or a facilitator, of existing spirituality rather than a new one. I'm quite sure we have all experienced looking at something familiar from a new perspective, and gleaning from that some additional insight. Freemasonry enables some of us to look at life, both mundane and spiritual, from an alternative vantage point. Some aspects of the ritual (I am thinking one one in particular actually in the first degree) dramatically drives home a particular lesson taught by Jesus (amongst others) and leaves quite an impression on the candidate (it certainly did on me).

The lessons that Jesus taught are baseless and hollow if kept to ourselves. He didn't say 'love one another as long as you know them already'. His message of Love is a universal one, and so freemasons are most certainly encouraged to take these lessons out into the wider world. This is exemplified not only in masonic charity (most of which you will never be aware of) but in the actions and service of freemasons to the wider community, and on an individual basis. I would say for every one bad apple in the Craft there are a thousand good ones quietly going about their business.

reply to post by Trinityman


most are members of the "Grand Loge Nationale Française" (there have been members involved in political scandals in the 90's in France).

[edit on 17-8-2007 by eibwen]

I'm definitely not the most educated in Masonry or Masonic history (I'm still new to the Craft) but it would appear that the Grand Loge Nationale Française is not a recognized lodge and operates independently from the other grand lodges. I could be wrong, and this warrants more research, but that's how it looks.

Originally posted by wu kung
I'm definitely not the most educated in Masonry or Masonic history (I'm still new to the Craft) but it would appear that the Grand Loge Nationale Française is not a recognized lodge and operates independently from the other grand lodges. I could be wrong, and this warrants more research, but that's how it looks.

Actually, the GLNF is the regular Grand Lodge in France, and is recognized by all 51 US Grand Lodges and the UGLE.

However, I've never heard of the GLNF ever being involved in any scandals.

not the lodge itself, but many of its members were involved in well known scandals like the one of the "Tribunal de Nice", where one of the judge was condemned in 2006 for violating professional secret (was sent to retirment since), he handed out informations to his lodge, the "Grande Loge Nationale Francaise)
I could give links if you are interested but they are in french.

There is another big one (HLM de paris en.wikipedia.org...) where many free masons have been involved in this big scandal

also what's up with african dicators such as Omar Bongo("president" of Gabon since 1967) or Denis Sassou N'gesso (www.trial-ch.org...
being members of this lodge ?
www.african-geopolitics.org... (unfortunately this article doesn't give an answer to my question)

I'm sure the average free masons is honest but things like this doesn't make you want to trust them.

it seems that joining a lodge (for a politic a judge etc) is a good way to gain power by making high-up friends

sorry for my broken english.

eibwen, I'm not wholly following your question.

But from my best guess these men either aren't a part of a recognized Grand Lodge or are various individuals who joined purely without honor. I know there have been men and there will be more who join thinking that simply by joining they will receive some sort of political or power boost. In some places, perhaps, but in the world as a whole becomine a Freemason will probably not get you any extra votes.


-Luke
-SW CF Frank #760, GL of Indiana

Hail and well met Brethren.

Originally posted by eibwen
most are members of the "Grand Loge Nationale Française" (there have been members involved in political scandals in the 90's in France).

Thanks eibwen. GLNF is just about the only recognized GL in France, amongst the 13 or so that are active there. I don't know why it would be popular amongst Africans though, as there are territorial restrictions for most regular GLs and I would be surprised if GLNF was setting up lodges in the 21st century in Africa.

If these people really are members they must be traveling to France for meetings or have just joined but never attend. Both of these options seem rather pointless, as there must be masonic lodges they could join in their own country.

I would imagine if they were megalomaniacs they might even want to start up their own GL !!!

Hi again eibwen

Originally posted by eibwen
not the lodge itself, but many of its members were involved in well known scandals like the one of the "Tribunal de Nice", where one of the judge was condemned in 2006 for violating professional secret (was sent to retirment since), he handed out informations to his lodge, the "Grande Loge Nationale Francaise)
I could give links if you are interested but they are in french.

Yes please - I would be very interested in seeing those links.

There is another big one (HLM de paris en.wikipedia.org...) where many free masons have been involved in this big scandal

I read that link, but it didn't mention anything about freemasons. Any more info on this?

also what's up with african dicators such as Omar Bongo("president" of Gabon since 1967) or Denis Sassou N'gesso (www.trial-ch.org...
being members of this lodge ?
www.african-geopolitics.org... (unfortunately this article doesn't give an answer to my question)

Freemasonry is open to all men, rich and poor. I don't think there is anything wrong with any one individual wanting to be a freemason (I would say that now, wouldn't I :lol

I'm sure the average free masons is honest but things like this doesn't make you want to trust them.

Which ones, the few bad pennies or the 5 million upright and honest ones?

it seems that joining a lodge (for a politic a judge etc) is a good way to gain power by making high-up friends

I think this whole thing tells us more about the way "business" is conducted in France and in some parts of Africa rather than freemasonry per se. Freemasonry on a local level is comprised of local people, and is pervaded by the culture of that area. Freemasonry in England is traditional with much ceremony, freemasonry in the US is more relaxed, freemasony in the Deep South is split down racial lines, and freemasonry in Italy has had problems with corruption. Notice a pattern?

sorry for my broken english.

It's no problem at all.

Hi

Here are some links all in french

About the corrupt judge Jean Paul Renard
hebdo.nouvelobs.com...
fr.wikipedia.org...
www.denistouret.net... (bottom of the page)


HLM affair :
fr.wikipedia.org... (bottom of the page)
www.france5.fr...


famous anti corruption judge saying that free masons, like members of political parties should be not become judges. Also says that free masons have been involved in too many affairs and that there is a "parrarel" justice for free masons

archquo.nouvelobs.com.../20020306.OBS3744.html


What the president of the french masonic institut (Roger Dachez) says about the Grand Loge National Française
www.lexpress.fr...

it is rather ironic that the only "official" French lodge is the most corrupt of all




[edit on 25-8-2007 by eibwen]

[edit on 25-8-2007 by eibwen]

Originally posted by eibwen


it is rather ironic that the only "official" French lodge is the most corrupt of all

I really haven't seen anything of the sort. Would you happen to have anything in...say...the King's English?

reply to post by wu kung


How can you tell freemasons are free if you have to swear to keep secret and to obey the worshipful master?



[edit on 27-8-2007 by Kerosene]

Originally posted by Kerosene


How can you tell freemasons are free if you have to swear to keep secret and to obey the worshipful master?

1. Freemasons do *not* swear to "obey the worshipful master". The Worshipful Master must obey the rules and regulations of the fraternity just like everybody else. I served as Worshipful Master of my Lodge seven years ago, and certainly did not expect for anyone to "obey" me. I did, however, expect the members to follow Masonic law, and that expectation still stands.

2. When a person joins a fraternity or sorority, whether it be Masonry or Elks or Greek Letter Societies, they promise to keep the organization's esoterica private among their own members. They are still free because they make this promise freely, of their own accord.

[edit on 27-8-2007 by Masonic Light]