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Questions about Masonry: an open and honest forum

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posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
BUt.. hypothetically.. any Mason who comes across a Mason in need, regardless of nationality or place in battle, be it political, or otherwise.. has to take care of their fallen brother..

A quick google search on the Civil War in America, and even in the Revolutionary war, soldiers going through fields filled with wounded would hear the cries of a fallen Mason, they would treat that man as they would their own, regardless of what side they where on. Often Union soldiers found Southern Masons wounded and helped them to a surgeon, and vice versa.


Thanks Rockpuck an interesting insight (it appeals to the romantic humanist in me). When I read about the Forget-me-not, I was curious as to whether Masons 'advertise' their allegiance normally or just in this circumstance (- the former with bling!!). It seems a little strange to wear the forget-me-not only in the camps and the ghettos, they are already condemned for whatever reason, obviously there was worse to fear but it still doesn’t make enormous sense - it could be ‘in remembrance’ certainly, I’d be interested in how wide spread the practice was, if you can shed any light. Your comparison with the American Civil War provides some insight, but admittedly only theoretically.

Much of the inter-war period in Germany was taken up by civil conflict using very dirty tactics – it pitted German against German, political and ideological beliefs were life and death matters – before racial purity was ever a factor. It would seem in such circumstances it would be helpful to know who to trust and a freemason would presumably trust another freemason.

After 1933 the Freemasons would have been perceived as a threat on numerous levels but before that it is probable that they would have foreseen their potential to be regarded as enemies of state. The build up to Hitler’s ascension to Dictator was all slight of hand, subterfuge and murder eliminated all opposition. If the forget-me-not was widely used it would suggest that there was some preparation for the events to come.

If you wouldn’t mind sharing it, I’d be grateful for any details you have on Freemasonry in Nazi Germany (from WWI onwards really), especially any names with freemasonry connections. Links or book recommendations would be helpful. As an observer I find the ethos of freemasonry interesting especially within a historical context.

Many thanks for responding to my questions.

All the best



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by rkadow

When a new Mason becomes a Master Mason we take an Obligation which includes a part about coming to "The aide of distressed worthy brother where the chance of saving his life is more likely then me losing my own."

Since this is an obligation that all Freemasons take it is probably likely that a Nazi Freemason would help out a none Nazi but only if it would not put his life in grave peril.



Thanks rkadow - this is interesting and supportive of Rockpuck's comparison. In Nazi Germany any act of kindness may have created suspicion in such a paranoia charged environment. It obviously precludes self-less acts of heroism but these are not necessarily what is needed, simply turning a blind eye would have aided the survival of some. I can understand why the freemasons were persecuted as very seldom does any totalitarian regime (Catholicism in extreme included) allow for other oaths of allegience, the encompassing nature of the masons is threat in itself, above and beyond what goes on behind closed doors.

Incidently I did exactly the same thing the first time I tried to quote - it must be the ATS rite of passage!

All the best



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by RockpuckA quick google search on the Civil War in America, and even in the Revolutionary war, soldiers going through fields filled with wounded would hear the cries of a fallen Mason, they would treat that man as they would their own, regardless of what side they where on. Often Union soldiers found Southern Masons wounded and helped them to a surgeon, and vice versa.


There's also stories from the War of 1812 (that 'other' American war) of the same thing happening.
An incident related on this link

About 3/4 of the way down the page is an interesting story.

[edit on 26-4-2007 by Fitzgibbon]



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 08:51 PM
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One of my brothers was telling me about a battle during the civil war in a small town, lots of Masons on both sides, and every building was leveled in the fight...except the town lodge.

Weird how these things happen.





posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 12:46 AM
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Kilgortrout:



After 1933 the Freemasons would have been perceived as a threat on numerous levels but before that it is probable that they would have foreseen their potential to be regarded as enemies of state. The build up to Hitler’s ascension to Dictator was all slight of hand, subterfuge and murder eliminated all opposition. If the forget-me-not was widely used it would suggest that there was some preparation for the events to come.

If you wouldn’t mind sharing it, I’d be grateful for any details you have on Freemasonry in Nazi Germany (from WWI onwards really), especially any names with freemasonry connections. Links or book recommendations would be helpful. As an observer I find the ethos of freemasonry interesting especially within a historical context.

Many thanks for responding to my questions.

All the best


I'm going to try and answer your inquiries to the best of my ability, and hopefully somewhere will get to the point of what you wish to know, and hopefully a little more then you bargained for. I should warn you.. I do tend to ramble on.


Hitler is only recorded in referring to his perception of Freemasonry as an example of how he wanted the Nazi party to develop,


The Masonic institution is a prime example of two things. One, a network, and two, and organized institution. While there are errors in the craft with records, for the most part Masonry is a very strict, very organized organization.. and a network of people and institutions that, imo, is only rivaled by the Roman Catholic Church.

Let us see what exactly Hitler didn't like about Masonry then...


Only the deeper and broader strata of the people as such, or rather that class which is beginning to wake up and fight for its rights and freedom, cannot yet be sufficiently taken in by these methods. But this is more necessary than anything else; for the Jew feels that the possibility of his rising to a dominant role exists only if there is someone ahead of him to clear the way; and this someone he thinks he can recognize in the bourgeoisie, in their broadest strata in fact. The glovemakers and linen weavers, however, cannot be caught in the fine net of Freemasonry; no, for them coarser but no less drastic means must be employed. Thus Freemasonry is joined by a second weapon in the service of the Jews: the press.
- Adolf Hitler.

Freemasonry in Nazi Germany

Through reading this passage, in a speech given by Adolf Hitler himself.. it is clear to see that Hitler, while he may not have feared the Masons at first personally, used it to his advantage the fear and mistrust in the working class. This is not at all unusual..

To inspire a change in society, to inspire a change in.. anything.. you need to gather the support.. the will of the people has to be captured. Once you have their attention, you can do with them as you please.. once they think you are their personal savior to give them something to work and strive for, you are their leader. People love to be led, and people need something to work for, and to work against. With out it people are left to meddle in their own affairs, gain restiveness and boredom with every day proceedings and begin a path of ideology exploration that typically leads against the government, thus something to work against.

In Germany, post WWI the peoples of Germany where broken. Broken in the they where poor, lost, had no strong leadership to guide them and where being rather ruthlessly exploited from outside sources..

These conditions led to the rise of Hitler.. not because Hitler himself was rich and powerful but because he knew how to exploit the people better then anyone else, he gave them something to fear and work against, and something to work for.

Masonry fell into the works here exactly the way it works on ATS.. people fear the unknown.. something weird and strange, something.. out of the ordinary. People hear these things and come to irrational conclusions. This is not their fault, because a strong definition of "what is Masonry" so hard to come by, and an explanation MUST be given in any form to appease the curiosity and rational intreque.. that irrational conclusions then become entirely rational in that it explains the unknown in the most obvious fashion. While Masonry is not a conspiracy for social domination in any way shape or form.. because of the mystic aura of awe and unknown expectations surrounding the craft, it is presumed to work against the people..

Essentially because Masonry is not.. open.. it is expected to work against the will of the people.. any other organization has its doors open, membership open, its business is known properly for the most part to the general public..

However, societies are not taught in school, they are not advertised, they are not put up on signs and pointed out with neon signs (except in America, I have seen Masonic lodges with neon signs........
)

Societies, though most work for the good of the people and their membership, remain at the back fringes of society, operating in the dark, not on purpose but because the general public awareness is so low no one knows who or what they are.. because there is not enough interest in joining or understanding or simply caste aside through ignorance they go for the most part unnoticed, until something brings them to the light. Once brought to the general public awareness it is a frenzy to determine where they stand..

For all organizations, all people, all things in general work for you or against you.. there is no middle ground, you or it always sways oh so slightly to one side.

Hitler (and Hitlers use of Masonry is alive and well today all through out the world) simply picked Masonry from the fringes of society and thrust it into the public arena in such away that the general masses of the people, and the sheep they are, simply could not understand, could not comprehend..

Hitler took Masonry and put it before the working class man, the guy in the factory, the baker, the soldier, the man shining shoes and said look! .. just look at these men, dressing up, rituals, wealth, big building..

He then ties it to the Jews, because it is a long standing expectation in Europe that a Jew is rich, stingy and has a big nose (political cartoons go back hundreds of years about Jews in such a way) .. clearly Hitler ties Jews working with Masonry to form a Zionist control system for the people, the bourgeoisie, or middle to upper middle class, was using its wealth to keep the people down..

Remember, this is a time when poor was just that, dirt poor.. the class differences in Germany, and much of the world, was extreme.. the people needed a way out, and constantly looking to the factory owners as the reason for their demise.. and looking to the factory owners as Jews and co-conspirators with Jews ultimetly led to the end of Masonry under Hitlers rule..

He dissolved the 9 grand lodges of Germany, many of the high ranking Masonic members where killed in concentration camps..

Masonry held a list of every members, most of the time indicating where they lived and how to contact them..

The entire roster for the entire nation of Germany was seized by the Gastopo and members where rounded up. It is not then unusual that Jews where killed in the same fashion, their names where listed in the synagogues and they where found, captured, and killed in so many a variety of ways..


"The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self preservation begun by Freemasonry in the circles of the so-called intelligentsia is transmitted to the broad masses and above all to the bourgeoisie by the activity of the big papers which today are always Jewish."


I am going to continue on with Hitlers message..

Because I think it is direly important for the general membership of ATS.. and especially to new members, which quite a few make their first presence on this thread..

If you made to this thread and this site you are looking for conspiracies..

The conspiracy, is in general terms a movement of the elite working against the free peoples of this world.. to work to enslave them to keep their status. Through the fear of these societies and networked, working conspiracies to keep you inline, you look for answers and why someone would do such a thing..

I would warn you this, after being paranoid about such things for a long while and coming out with a whole new view on things..

Fearing a conspiracy where there is no conspiracy is the fuel that is thrown on the fire of hate, paranoia, ignorant bigotry and self righteous importance where you look down on another class of people, be it above you or below you, in spite, detestation..

You your self become a statistic that falls into history of the very many people like your self, that use fear of the unknown, blatant ignorance of what they choose not to strive to understand and you your self become the very thing you actually fear..

Read the words of Hitler, and tell me. Does a Mason sound like that....

Or does someone who constantly purposefully fear other people and organizations through fear of the unknown. .. a conspiracy theorist? There is always that fine line, that can easily be crossed.. and when it is, history shows us the horrific unmentionable catastrophes that can be the outcome of such ignorant fear.

Carried on below....



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 01:08 AM
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"The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self preservation begun by Freemasonry in the circles of the so-called intelligentsia is transmitted to the broad masses and above all to the bourgeoisie by the activity of the big papers which today are always Jewish." 11
"The prohibition of Masonic secret societies, the persecution of the supra-national press as well as the continuous demolition of international Marxism, and, conversely, the steady reinforcement of the Fascist state conception, will in the course of the years cause the Italian Government to serve the interests of the Italian people more and more, without regard for the hissing of the Jewish world hydra."


Masonry in Nazi Germany

As carried on from my above post..

Fear is like fire.. when a group of people fear something to the point that they would do anything to destroy what it is they fear, those near them begin, at the very least, to get nervous.. but more likely reach the same heights of fear. The destruction of Masonry moved on from Germany..

In Austria it was attacked, members killed, lodges exploited.. doors thrown open.. all throughout Germany and Austria the items of Masons where put on public display, everything from clothing, aprons and chairs.. alters.. fully furnished lodges.. all put out in the open, but laid out and described in a way that would make them appear to be as Hitler described.. satanic Zionist working against the will of the working class people.

Amazing, how this solidified Hitlers stance in the public political arena that it must be true, there was a conspiracy..

and as stated in the last half of my thread above this one..

It is equally amazing that people think Masonry was in line with Hitler! .. when it is THEIR LINES that THEY TYPE that are inline with Hitler! .. Amazing I tell you.. that the lessons history offers us are so ignorantly ignored.. ah but that is the way of things, people will always fear what they cannot understand even though it is their own short comings and bigoted short-sightedness that prevents them from seeing the truth. Hate, bigotry. It comes in many shapes and forms.. and while so many may think that they are working against the conspiracy in some way shape or form.. are actually doing good.. they think that the words of their god, that their books say this.. or that.. or that through the will of christ they work to destroy Zionist and Masons who do evil and do not conform to the will of a single religion, that they are in fact the ones doing good. They are the Hitlers of this world. The true hate filled spiteful souls that make this world the dessolate place of violence, hatred and fear..

Hitler understood all of this.. and thats where you get the fall of Masonry in Germany through out the Nazi regime.. Masonry was also attacked in the USSR and the soviet blocs, for the same reasons.

Any tyrant fears Masonry.. they fear it for what it gives people, the liberty to think and believe what you wish. Free thought, free will.. these will always prevail the tyrants of the world, and while weaker at first always destroy the despots and bring about enlightenment and freedom.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While im rambling this late at night, many people also tie the NWO in with the "hitler agenda" and the Zionist Masonic connections for a one world order.. since it has to do with Hitler .. I figure what the hey, Ill continue rambling my views on dictators and the New World Order and its infeasability.



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 05:22 AM
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Rockpuck, as usual, you do me proud.

Okay, I just wanted to take a minute and add a little humor to this thread.
A little comic relief if you will.

I hope you enjoy.


-Wu K'ung




[edit on 4/27/2007 by wu kung]


Um mods, I can't seem to get the video embedded properly, can you please help me?
Thanx.

[edit on 4/27/2007 by wu kung]

[edit on 4/30/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

[edit on 4/30/2007 by benevolent tyrant]



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 06:54 AM
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Rockpuck, thank you, I like your enthusiasm and industry. I'm going to go away and read all this - I will get back to you later on if that is okay. I very much appreciate the work you've put in and I intend to give it the attention it deserves.

All the best



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by wu kung
Nice to have you here blue73, you too bdrice12.
You two are both welcome here.
It's an honor to have your first posts here on this thread.

Blue, I'm sure that your father would be overjoyed to have his son join into Masonry with him.
It has been a bonding experience for many father/sons for generations.

Rockpuck, I truly appreciate you guiding this thread when your schedule permits, as always, it's an honor to call you brother.

bdrice12, good luck with your petition.
Please let us know how it goes.



To use a good old Lancastrian term "I'm proper good to be 'ere". Thank You.



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 07:40 PM
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Hi all, hope Your well,

Thanks to Rock and many others for speaking about something I was a little afraid of talking about..Nice one Guys'n'Girls. Thank You..

Apologies if this is posted in the wrong place but I felt, from my point of view anyways relevant.

I'm a Manchester City F.C. fan and I've always wondered why we have the colours we do, i.e sky blue and gold.

I kind of have an answer, from what I read but many of you may already know!

I think it has something to do with St Marks in Manchester many Years ago.. I'm not sure.

But I know that the Lodges in the part of Manchester I'm around have the same colour sashes, sky blue and gold, and there is purple in there aswell, City's away kit.

It's something mentioned in passing to my Dad a few Years ago..



posted on Apr, 27 2007 @ 10:32 PM
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Guys'n'Girls.
Whos the girl?? Wu Kung?
Just messin with you Wu-Kung. ....... or am I?


I tried my best to do you justice.. I went to alot of sites but im just not a soccer fan and left more confused then I was before entering.

As for the colors .. most teams have colors, no teams tend to be the same.. maybe thats just what they chose?

Perhaps the lodge color relation has to do with their loyalty to the team? Most Masonic aprons are plain white, or white and blue.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Guys'n'Girls.
Whos the girl?? Wu Kung?
Just messin with you Wu-Kung. ....... or am I?



Easy now boyo.
Don't go trying to run through quicksand.





ps: can someone please fix my youtube link?
Please???



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 06:29 AM
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Wu Kung ...... I am tierd... getting ready for lodge actually... however, I do believe you coppied the link wrong?

put the entire you-tube url in and try that first.

If that does not work, next try EVERY char inbetween the = = and thats the directs code, and should work? (worked on mine?) .. ok.. off to make my coffee... (morning lodge.
lol..)



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 05:36 PM
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[edit on 4/28/2007 by wu kung]



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 06:16 PM
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Sorry Guys for being too vague.

I'm a huge Football fan and understand that team colours vary for many reasons.

I read a booklet my Dad brought home a few years ago about his lodge's history.

MCFC, or whatever they were called back then, were taken in by a local Church, I think it was St Marks. Anyways before hand we used to play in black and red, witch later became our away kit. We took the blue and gold from the sashes of the lodge.

It's not important but just another part of society that Freemasonry has touched.

I just thought it may be worth mentioning.

Thanks to all for a brilliant and informative site.

Cheers.



posted on Apr, 28 2007 @ 10:35 PM
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To the fella that asked about the blue forget me not...

First, I hope my two post in response to you where good enough.

Secondly after digging through some of my books here, I found what you where looking for.

The Blue forget-me-not was worn by ANY Mason under German, Austrian, Italian control that wished to be defiant.

Apparantly the plan came about when Masons where arrested for wearing a square and compass on their chest, Masons who continued to be defiant and wear the squar and compass where often beaten, captured and forced into camps or simply killed..

Those who made it into camps found it difficult to create a square and compass, it was also very noticable.. in the end from an unknown source someone proposed the forget me not as a way to defiantly stand out against the Nazi and FAscist powers and declare them selves Masons to their brothers so as "the light of Masonry" would not be snuffed by the tyranical government of Germany.

In public it was sometimes worn as well for both rememberance of those now lost, but also because of it being illegal to wear the squar and compas...

EH could not find out how "wide spread" but I believe it was a general use betwen 1933 - 1947..

Hope that helps if someone has not already answered that question.

Any other questions any one else might have, bring em on someone will get you an answer!

If not now, eventually!



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 04:14 AM
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Thanks Rockpuck you are a star. I have been reading all the articles on the web-link that you provided in your earlier post. There are some fascinating articles and the further information that you have given me about the forget-me-not is the icing on the cake.


I think you would find the political and ideological atmosphere in general in the Weimar Republic very interesting. The way in which the freemasons were divided in Germany is indicative of the divides in the population in general. The Weimar Republic Sourcebook, pub University of California. ISBN 0-520-067752-4 is a stunning collection of works from all stratas. Some of the earlier freemasonry history in germany too is indicative of the mentalities that ensured that the Republic never had a chance.

The way in which you describe the use of the forget-me-not is highly telling when taken in conjunction with some of the articles that I have read over the last couple of days. The divisions between the Old Prussian lodges and the Humanitarian lodges is highly indicative of the divisions in the whole of Germany. I was unaware of these differences at lodge level and as such had difficulty explaining how the forget-me-not might work. It is all much clearer now. It would be great if you could let me know which book you found that in for reference.

Again thanks for your insight it has been most valuable.

All the very best.



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Wu Kung ...... I am tierd... getting ready for lodge actually...

.. ok.. off to make my coffee... (morning lodge.
lol..)


Boo hoo


A young lad like yourself should be full of vigor and vitality.
Perhaps you need more cardio?





[edit on 4/29/2007 by wu kung]



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 10:29 AM
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TESTING

OMG...

There ya go brother Wu Kung lol...

I will u2u you the code, but I think its to late to edit your post.. but here is your video!

(And thank you Asala though you won't read this, your thread helped when all else failed) ... the code was missing ONE character lol..


[edit on 29-4-2007 by asala]



posted on Apr, 29 2007 @ 06:54 PM
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Thankyou rock that was one of the most easy to read commentaries on Masons I have read. I can see how the Hitler agenda comes in, but I thought that Hitler had to take side s with the Vatican for the backing of the church not to fight off the masons who did not agree with his agenda. Do you suppose that if history does repeat its self thhat we could see something like this again in the next year or two? BTW I asked my husband one time if he had to choose a group to join he said "Why the Masons of course"!. Hummm well he is a brick mason, see how I came into this site a bit confused?



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