So You Hate Cops

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I have a problem with them shooting and killing unarmed, defenseless black men.

Hey, Hottie and Ras...

I think Pac said it best.

"Cops give a damn about a negro
pull the trigger kill a nigga he's a hero" - 2pac, Changes

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Truthseeka ... why do you have "Allah AkBARRRRR!!!" under your name? Have you become Muslim? That is the favorite phrase that the radical islamic terrorists use as they mass murder people. It's been caught on flight recorders, etc. But I'm sure you already know that ... don't you.

So because some muslim terrorist use that phrase it's not okay for other people (muslim or non-muslim) to do so?? Since when is it not okay to say "God is Great??"

Allah Ackbarrr!!!

Semper,

1. I applaude you for you extracuriculumm activities. Good job.

2. With your rantish opening statement you left us very limited space for intelligent discussion. You painted a picture in black and white, us against them, good versus evil, and you put youself and police on the side of good and with that, you put different thinking ATS member on the side of evil, so some emotional responses are not surprising. And with statements that we are alive because police (or yourself) are willing to die everyday, you are not doing youself any favours.

3. Food for thought. You said you hold a teaching position in PAL(?). I have I question for you and your students. On a lot of police patrol cars we see a writing "to protect and to serve", so here's a question:

To whom is police serving/protecting?

a) The Public
b) The State
c) Both

But let's expand this discussion further. Here's some articles I put togather to read about police behaviour and why citizen react in a manner that they do.

Maybe if we all read them there would be no need to libel someone a pork product or spoiled ungratefull citizen.

Entrenched Subculture Is At Root Of Police Brutality And Bias Cases
Sadly, in our early tenure as cops, we are instructed on the "code" of the police subculture. These are norms that are almost always perverse. Two such norms were operable in the Jones mob attack. The first is that if a citizen runs from one of us, we are to beat him severely.
Another is that if a citizen physically hurts one of us, we are to hurt that citizen even more before we bring him to the station. And if that citizen has killed a cop, he shouldn't make it to the station alive. This is well-documented in research literature about policing (including the work of Elizabeth Reuss-Ianni and Jonathan Rubinstein) and in public testimony by police officers.

Police culture and behaviour
Policing, as an occupation, has often been described as hours of boredom, followed by minutes of sheer terror. In any occupation where such extremes exist, it is necessary to have cultural characteristics which reinforce the collective and impersonal nature of the work. Cultural characteristics are the man-made aspects of social organization, as distinct from structural institutions, but both structure and culture influence personality and behavior.

Topics in Police Ethics
The vast majority of police officers are honest and ethical, at least in their personal, or ordinary, morality (which may be different from their "role morality" or police ethics), but all of them pay the price for decreased public confidence and trust when there is little respect for police ethics. In this lecture, we examine two possible causes of public mistrust for police ethics: (1) the perception that a police subculture exists that either turns good officers bad or tolerates evil in the midst of policing; and (2) the perception that most of policing is just a front for racial discrimination. These perceptions affect all of policing, go to the heart of police role in society, and involve ethical issues which we will explore in depth. Trust is the main ethical issue in this approach to police ethics, and in learning about trust, we also learn about other irrational forces in society, like fear. This kind of focus on police ethics is also a focus on societal ethics. Facts make little difference here, as it doesn't matter whether we can trace the roots of public mistrust to any specific event; what matters is perception, and how those perceptions influence the morality of a nation as a whole.

The Future of Policing
In August 1982, law enforcement executives gathered in the FBI Academy auditorium to hear Alvin Toffler speak. In his speech, Toffler suggested that because change was taking place so rapidly, tremendous social pressures were occurring and will continue to ferment and explode unless opportunities were created to relieve those pressures.

Arthur Niederhoffer’s Study on Police Cynicism Among NYPD Recruits
For the past four decades, there has been extensive debate over what the role of police officers should be. While many maintain that law enforcement officials should hold the traditional law and order perspective, believing that the main role of police is to fight crime, others perceive the role to encompass what they call the social service, or professional approach. The first group has the tendency to avoid changes in their crime-fighting compass, either because of deep cynicism or because of fear that changes implemented will ultimately diminish their status. The latter group, seeking to bring attributes such as high standards of admission and a higher level of status and prestige, chart a more clear and realistic path towards a definition of the role of police in our society.

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[edit on 14-3-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

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Thank you Yanchek.

That was extremely helpful and comprehensive.

Hmm, well yancheck, if we are going to get into the individual roles each officer plays within the department, and how different jobs within that department bear different extreme levels of stress, we might be looking too much at the forest instead of the individual tree.

Semper has every right to come here and make that post, and in the manner he made it. He knew what he was doing, and who it would likely affect. Funny thing is, a post like that tends to stab knives into the sides of those that do the very things that he mentions. People do these things without regard or consideration of the cutting, but true points Semper makes next to each issue.

It is a sobering reminder that cops are people too, and need to be treated with regard. The vast majority of cops treat people with a high degree of respect up front. How fast that respect is lost usually depends on the citizen, moreso than the cop.

And you know what? We as citizens DON'T thank cops enough. If we can't or don't care enough to pressure Congress to see to it that they earn decent livings, then the least we could do is buy them a damn soda or something. I'd offer you a beer Semper, but only if you drive.

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[edit on 14-3-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by semperfortis
HH, Please show me proof the police are rampant murdering INNOCENT people...

No problem. This is the kind of debate I expect from you, not the immature, needing-a-big-font-to-make-your-point kind of post you made before.

Here's a list of the innocent men murdered by the police. It's off the top of my head, and only applies to my city. Btw, if other members have their own lists, they would greatly add to this conversation.

1. Amadou Diallo, d. February 4, 1999

a 23 year old immigrant to the United States from Guinea, who was shot at 41 times, and killed by four caucasian New York Police Department plain-clothed officers on... Diallo was unarmed at the time of the shooting

2. Ousmane Zongo, d. May 22, 2003

an African arts trader from Burkina Faso living in New York City. He was shot and killed by New York City Police Department officers while unarmed in a chance run-in with police during a warehouse raid on .

3. Timothy Stansbury, d. January 24, 2004.

a 19-year old unarmed New York City teenager shot and killed by NYPD Officer Richard S. Neri Jr...Officer Neri and a partner were patrolling the rooftop of a housing project in the Bedford-Stuyvesant neighborhood of Brooklyn at about 1 a.m. Officer Neri, with his gun drawn, approached a rooftop door to check the starirway inside. Neri testified to a Brooklyn grand jury that he fired unintentionally when he was startled as Stansbury pushed open the rooftop door. Stansbury, a resident of an adjoining building, died from one shot in the chest

4. Sean Bell, d. November 25, 2006

an African-American man who was shot and killed by plainclothes New York Police Department detectives...Bell and two other friends were leaving Bell's bachelor party at a strip club in Jamaica, Queens when they were shot...Bell was to be married later that day. Bell's death came on the 30th anniversary of the death of Randolph Evans, an unarmed Brooklyn youth who was shot and killed by an NYPD officer in 1976...one veteran officer emptied two full magazines, firing 31 shots from a 9mm handgun and pausing to reload at least once

And PLEASE no one here is talking about the isolated single individual...There are bad people that murder, there are bad cops that murder.

Hey, semper, there's no need for caveats when you're right.

Sorry, I missed this.

I in no way, shape or form WONDER why people hate the police....

Criminal Psychology for 4 years

Are you implying that those citizens who object to the murders of unarmed fellow citizens are criminals?

[edit on 14-3-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Law enforcement are not privy to anything that we as regular citizens are. I am not naive enough to think that our police officers worldwide are not guilty of some form of anti-social behaviour. However, I have a strong impression that the good severely outweigh the bad.

Have innocent people lost their lives due to a corrupt police officer? Without a doubt!

Has a police officer sacrificed his life for an innocent person? Without A Doubt!

As anything in life, I take the good with the bad. At the end of the day, I think the good outweighs the bad. That is my opinion, and in no way, shape, or form, am I trying to say anyone else needs to agree.

We all hold the law enforcement to a higher standard. And this is something that should come with the territory. But a few crooked cops does not equate to anything. Just like a few good cops does not equate to anything. Does one black man translate into a negative for the whole race? What about whites? Any other race, nationality, gender, religion, etc.

Presumptions on cops due to the actions of some is inappropriate.

Like I've said, and the same is true for any other group, take the good with the bad. Judge each one on their own merit, and refrain from buying into these stereotypes, prejudices, etc.

[edit on 14-3-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Funny thing is, a post like that tends to stab knives into the sides of those that do the very things that he mentions. People do these things without regard or consideration of the cutting, but true points Semper makes next to each issue.

I'm sorry-- what?

It is a sobering reminder that cops are people too, and need to be treated with regard. The vast majority of cops treat people with a high degree of respect up front. How fast that respect is lost usually depends on the citizen, moreso than the cop.

Please. I am so tired of this. I'm all for giving people the respect afforded to any other human being. I'm equally respectful to everyone I meet, regardless of their uniform. However, I will not bow and scrape at the feet of those who kill my brothers with impunity. You're, like, in a totally different world.

I know this is the subject of another thread now, but this is definitely an example of white privilege if I ever saw one. The fact that you all can sit here, so sanctimonious, so smug, and tell us- what are you telling us?- we shouldn't mistrust the police? We should look at them as friends/ helpers? That's ridiculous. I would be stupid to listen to you, because it could cost me my life.

Seriously.

What are you saying? I must not be getting it.

We as citizens DON'T thank cops enough.

I do thank them, when they do something right.

Originally posted by chissler
I have a strong impression that the good severely outweigh the bad.

That may very well be true, but it's irrelevant to this thread, imo.

Semper began this thread as a rant to all of those- "us," I guess- who don't especially like the police. As well as I can gather from a computer screen, it seems that this group, this "us," consists of black Americans who are sick and tired of this extralegal behavior... you know, murdering black men and then getting off scott-free.

Presumptions on cops due to the actions of some is inappropriate.

Semper has set himself up as the defender of all police. He has not admitted that, yes, there are racist elements within the force, and, yes, they sometimes shoot black men for no reason. And so he must defend the bad apples as well. When we talk about police brutality, he responds like we're delusional. He's acting out that 'Blue Wall of Silence' we hear so much about.

That is why I'm not letting this slide. All I'm saying to semper is, use that vaunted 'police reasoning' to see what is staring you in the face. I'm not a liar, and I don't appreciate being treated like one just because I disagree with 'the cop.'

Don't defend murderers and you won't get lumped in with them. Simple.

Does one black man translate into a negative for the whole race? What about whites? Any other race, nationality, gender, religion, etc.

You are not seriously comparing race to a profession, are you? I've been seeing that comparison around here a lot in the last few days. It's quite a stretch.

Source

West Valley City, Utah, resident Bounmy Ousa, 60, died after being shot three times in the stomach by undercover narcotics officers in an unmarked police car parked in front of his home as they prepared to raid a house down the street the night of July 8. According to an account from West Valley City police Captain Steve Sandquist, Ousa walked up to their car, and they identified themselves as police officers and ordered him to go back inside. Instead, Ousa continued to argue with the detectives, walking around to the driver's side of the car as he did so...

About 12 hours later and 2000 miles away, a bizarre mid-day drug raid in Sarasota, Florida, ended with a handful of penny ante arrests, a bunch of traumatized children, and 44-year-old Michael Meluzzi dead, shot by police as he fled the scene unarmed...

...According to police, Meluzzi "reached into his waistband" and brought his right arm up in a quick motion. Delaney feared for his life and shot Meluzzi once, penetrating his right arm and chest. Meluzzi died soon after in the hospital. "He (Devaney) believed he was armed," said Sarasota police spokesman Jay Frank.

No weapon was found.

Source

A Denver police officer likely mistook a soda can for a weapon before shooting and killing a 63-year-old man in his bed, Police Chief Gerry Whitman said Monday.

Frank Lobato was shot once in the chest Sunday night during a police search for a domestic-violence suspect. Lobato, a career criminal and formerly homeless man whom neighbors said was disabled, was not involved in the domestic dispute.

Source

An unarmed Brooklyn man was shot and killed outside a bar on Eighth Avenue in Midtown Manhattan early yesterday in a scuffle with three undercover narcotics detectives, the authorities said.

The details of the shooting were sketchy last night and there were conflicting accounts of the episode, but a senior investigator and a man who saw the scuffle said the dead man, Patrick M. Dorismond, 26, who worked as a security guard for the 34th Street Partnership, was angered when one of the undercover detectives approached him and asked to buy drugs.

Source

At 2:15 am this morning, barely into the 4th day of 2006, Portland police responded to a “suspicious car” report in NE Portland, found a man sleeping in a car that had been reported stolen, and ultimately shot and killed him moments after waking him up.

Source

Hundreds of mourners turned out in Detroit for the funeral of Brandon Martell Moore, 16, shot to death by an off-duty police officer reported to be working as a security guard for National Wholesale Liquidators...

...The unarmed Moore was killed Nov. 26 by a Detroit police officer who shot him in the back as he ran from him. The officer also shot Moore's 14-year-old friend Johnathan Stanley, an Osborn football player, in the hand,...

Source

A teenager accused of robbing a student of two new Playstation 3s on the day the popular game consoles were introduced was shot to death by police sent to arrest him.

Peyton Strickland, 18, was killed Friday at a house he shared with three roommates, New Hanover County Sheriff Sid Causey said.

“If this boy would’ve come to the door, opened the door, we probably wouldn’t be talking,” the sheriff said Sunday.

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[edit on 14-3-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by truthseeka

...According to police, Meluzzi "reached into his waistband" and brought his right arm up in a quick motion. Delaney feared for his life and shot Meluzzi once, penetrating his right arm and chest. Meluzzi died soon after in the hospital. "He (Devaney) believed he was armed," said Sarasota police spokesman Jay Frank.

No weapon was found.

If I had been in this situtation I probably would have done the same thing, its common sense that you don't reach in you waistband and then bring your arm up in a quick motion. This almost sounds like police assisted suicide.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
...However, I will not bow and scrape at the feet of those who kill my brothers with impunity.

And neither will I. But the examples you give are not from the kind of human being that I have come to know semperfortis as, and certainly don't represent his intent with the OP, imo.

You're, like, in a totally different world.

I suppose so, to the extent that I understood completely where semper was coming from on the OP. And support his position completely.

I know this is the subject of another thread now, but this is definitely an example of white privilege if I ever saw one.

So now this is about race?

The fact that you all can sit here, so sanctimonious, so smug, and tell us- what are you telling us?- we shouldn't mistrust the police?

I think if this society goes down that road, and most of us don't trust most of the police, we are headed for real trouble. The thing is, I believe like chissler that most of us do trust most of the police. Rarely have I ever run into a cop that I felt a gut instinct not to trust because I sensed malice. Black, white, or otherwise.

We should look at them as friends/ helpers? That's ridiculous. I would be stupid to listen to you, because it could cost me my life.

Seriously.

What are you saying? I must not be getting it.

Let me tell you something. That's the kind of crap that really gets me fired up. You had better consider real carefully what you are saying there. Those cops lay their lives on the line for you, yes YOU, every damn day. For US. ALL of us. Now if you wanna be the ungrateful subvert then fine. To you people that say "Where the hell's a cop when you need one?" I say "On the other end of the nearest phone." It's not like they can do much better than that, really. They are only human.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
That may very well be true, but it's irrelevant to this thread, imo.

I disagree. I do not believe this thread is about semper. I believe it is about police in general. So with that, what I have said is certainly applicable.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
You are not seriously comparing race to a profession, are you? I've been seeing that comparison around here a lot in the last few days. It's quite a stretch.

How is it any different? Honestly though? If I have a problem with an individual because they are black, how is that any different than if I had a problem with them because they were a cop? Our race, our profession, our age, our gender, our religion, all of these are merely insignificant details to the person that we truly are. If I pre-judge you on any of these details, it is wrong. It does not matter if that detail is your job, age, gender, religion, or race, all of them are equally wrong.

Personally, I do not put any extra merit into racially based stereotypes. They are the same as the rest, in my opinion.

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Let me tell you something. That's the kind of crap that really gets me fired up. You had better consider real carefully what you are saying there. Those cops lay their lives on the line for you, yes YOU, every damn day. For US. ALL of us. Now if you wanna be the ungrateful subvert then fine.

Speak for yourself.

NO cop lays down his life EVERY DAMN DAY for me. I've never been in a situation that got ugly enough that cop lovers would call the police. And, were I to get into such a situation, the only time I would call the cops would be to have them take the carcass of whoever was threatening my life away. Of course, I would NOT have my heat in my hand whenever the bobbies showed up (gee, I wonder why that is? ).

Originally posted by truthseeka
NO cop lays down his life EVERY DAMN DAY for me.

Odd that the three words before this sentence were, "Speak for yourself". Then you proceeded to speak on behalf of police officers in your community.

Believe it or not, everything in life is not about race.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Speak for yourself.

NO cop lays down his life EVERY DAMN DAY for me.

Oh yeah? Think about that the next time you see one in the obituaries. Cause it damn sure wasn't for him or herself that they died.

Originally posted by chissler
Odd that the three words before this sentence were, "Speak for yourself". Then you proceeded to speak on behalf of police officers in your community.

I don't care if you don't want to accept my statement. It's true; a cop has NEVER "laid down his life for me," or even put himself in danger to protect me.

Believe it or not, everything in life is not about race.

And I said this WHERE?

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Oh yeah? Think about that the next time you see one in the obituaries. Cause it damn sure wasn't for him or herself that they died.

And it wasn't for me either. It was for whoever's call they were responding to.

Originally posted by truthseeka
It's true; a cop has NEVER "laid down his life for me," or even put himself in danger to protect me.

I bet 99% of the population could say the same. What does that indicate? Has a police officer ever left you out to dry? Have you ever been in any immediate danger, in desperate need for help, and a cop completely ignored you?

If not, how can you fault someone for not jumping into action, when the situation never presented itself.

No cop has never laid their life down for me, but that doesn't mean I hate them, or have any negative feelings towards them.

Originally posted by truthseeka
And I said this WHERE?

Where did I say that you did say it?