So You Hate Cops

Racial/Ethnic profiling - Different Country, same problem

There were some posts about this on this thread, but lets expand this discussion beyond US borders. There was some statistical data posted to justifie to some extent this sort of practice in US. Lets check out Europe and Russia.

Ethnic Profiling in Europe
Studies of the criminal justice systems of many European countries have found pervasive evidence of ethnic and religious discrimination, particularly in the wake of the terrorist attacks in the United States in 2001 and in Spain in 2003. Irrefutable evidence of ethnic is hard to come by, however, due to many countries’ overly strict interpretation of data protection laws as precluding the gathering of any ethnicity-specific data. However, a 2001 European Commission Council Directive Implementing the Principle of Equal Treatment Between Persons Irrespective of Racial or Ethnic Origin (the “EU Race Directive”) explicitly authorizes the gathering of statistical information necessary to prove discrimination, which provides an opportunity to begin collecting such data.

pdc.ceu.hu..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Ethnic Profiling in Moscow Metro
The Moscow Metro Monitoring Study found that persons of non-Slavic appearance made up only 4.6% of the riders on the Metro system but 50.9% of persons stopped by the police at Metro exits. In other words, non-Slavs were, on average, 21.8 times more likely to be stopped than Slavs. At one station, non-Slavs were 85 times more likely than Slavs to be stopped by the police. By comparison, the highest rates detected in the United States and United Kingdom show that minorities are four or five times more likely than non-minorities to be stopped. This disproportion is massive and cannot
be explained on non-discriminatory, legitimate law enforcement grounds.

And in this same study there is a case from US how racial/ethnic profiling can blow up in your face.

In a landmark case, State v. Soto, 734 A.2d 350 (N.J. Super. Ct. Law Div. 1996), a New Jersey court relied on statistical evidence to determine that the New Jersey State Police were engaging in unlawful racial profiling. The case involved 17 African-American defendants who were on trial for transporting illegal drugs after they had been arrested while driving on an interstate highway between Washington, D.C. and New York City. The defendants argued that the evidence against them was illegal because the
police unlawfully arrested them based on discriminatory enforcement of traffic laws in violation of the state constitution. As part of their legal defense, social psychologist Dr. John Lamberth conducted a statistical analysis of traffic stops on the highway during the month of June 1993 through the novel methodology of benchmarking and observational
monitoring. His study revealed that although only 13.5% of all drivers on the highway during the randomly-selected times were African American, 37.4% of all stops involved racial minorities. The differential yielded a statistically significant disparity: blacks were 4.85 times more likely to be stopped than whites. Presented with this strong statistical evidence, the court concluded that the New Jersey State Police were targeting blacks, an intentional and purposeful form of discrimination against African-Americans that violated the equal protection clause of the New Jersey State Constitution.
The court declared the evidence seized from these defendants as a result of the illegal stops and searches inadmissible. State v. Soto was a far-reaching legal precedent, signaling that racial profiling is not only an odious practice, it is also illegal.

Originally posted by Harassment101
Hi JamesMcMahn.

If I had been in this situation I probably would have done the same thing, its common sense that you don't reach in you waistband and then bring your arm up in a quick motion. This almost sounds like police assisted suicide.

That is why I take no chances. even the most innocent looking person can have a weapon. To this day no one has figured out why she did this.

I am not debating your call or your choice to feel safe by asking people to keep their hands where you can see them, or that you would have done the same thing. I Was specifically commenting on the fact that you felt that this happening to someone was "police assisted suicide."

I said it almost sounds like police assisted suicide. If he had did it at normal speed then most likely nothing would have happened, but they said he did it in a "sudden motion", that is not a smart thing to do around an officer.

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
I said it almost sounds like police assisted suicide. If he had did it at normal speed then most likely nothing would have happened, but they said he did it in a "sudden motion", that is not a smart thing to do around an officer.

Notice this is what "they said." Translation: this is most likely a LIE to cover up another shooting of an unarmed man. You know...like the senior citizen shot in his bed because "they MAY have mistaken a SODA CAN for a gun."

Originally posted by truthseeka
"they MAY have mistaken a SODA CAN for a gun."

They may have.

I must admit, I'm very disappointed in local authorities in my area. There choosing of peoples for specific tasks, with let's say credible, witnessed prior events in such, is distasteful; to say the least.

They've chosen a path that is highly destructive, and try and set up frame-works for the attempts at covering their discrepancies. Which is payed at a very high cost by the ones they try and set up into these positions.

I'll step out on a limb and say I know of a direct eye witness who saw a liberated professional hit man, in the back of a patrol car mind you, hit the panic button, ignore given oral instructions, then take his own life. Documented. A search within the news stories would yield something to the effect of the man being very distraught, but this eye witness I speak of knows the truth to it.

Say I'm crazy, it's the going fad (unless I'm under the gun myself, mind you), but this is based on real events.

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn

Originally posted by truthseeka
"they MAY have mistaken a SODA CAN for a gun."

They may have.

I agree.

Between the shape, size, color, and writing similarities (guns also have writing like "Sprite," "Coca-Cola," or "7-Up" on them), I can see your point.

Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn

Originally posted by truthseeka
"they MAY have mistaken a SODA CAN for a gun."

They may have.

I agree.

Between the shape, size, color, and writing similarities (guns also have writing like "Sprite," "Coca-Cola," or "7-Up" on them), I can see your point.

I could imagine that if you were placed in a situation where you needed to make a spit second decision where someone could possibly end your life with what may be a gun, you would err on the side of caution too.

Think about it....
In a profession such as being a police officer you are basically wearing a big fat target on your chest for violent criminals to kill you. You go into a building or to a house and someone makes sudden movements with what COULD POSSIBLY be a gun....you wouldn't do the same thing?

It sure is easy to judge these officers from the comfort of your computer desk, but I'd be willing to bet if you were placed in the same situation...you would be singing an entirely different tune.

Thanks Semper & James, for doing such an important yet thankless job.

Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn

Originally posted by truthseeka
"they MAY have mistaken a SODA CAN for a gun."

They may have.

I agree.

Between the shape, size, color, and writing similarities (guns also have writing like "Sprite," "Coca-Cola," or "7-Up" on them), I can see your point.

If I saw someone reaching for for something shiny, I am going to be on the cautious side. In a split second what would you do? Would you wait for someone to possibly shoot you or would you take the shoot answer honestly.

Bad logic James.

If that's the case, anyone reaching into their pocket could be a possible assassin. And any box left on the side of the road could be a bomb. Better blow up every box, and shoot everyone with pockets, just to be sure right?

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
If I saw someone reaching for for something shiny, I am going to be on the cautious side. In a split second what would you do? Would you wait for someone to possibly shoot you or would you take the shoot answer honestly.

Say what you wanna say.

I often watch police videos on Spike TV and Court TV. I have seen, on a NUMBER of occassions, people PRETEND like they have a gun when being chased by police. From women pointing purses at police to men reaching in their cars and pointing their fingers at police. And, do you know what?

These cops did NOT shoot these people! They kept their guns drawn on the suspects, then apprehended them. So much for "split seconds" there. And, this was during a high speed chase, which has cops hyped up and on edge, no doubt. This is NOT cops responding to a call, then shooting a person LAYING DOWN in their bed.

I DO have an idea why these police did not shoot in these cases, though...

Is it my imagination or is it when Cops shoot someone they always make sure their dead? even when it turns out they weren`t reaching for a gun at all.

James you got shot and lived,did the young girl live?

Is it so nothing can be argued later and compensation payouts given to those unfairly delt with?

If I saw someone reaching for for something shiny, I am going to be on the cautious side. In a split second what would you do? Would you wait for someone to possibly shoot you or would you take the shoot answer honestly.

JM,

Kudos for relating this and discussing it, yet for all intents and purposes you are "spinning your wheels" so to speak.

Look at the replies and it is clear you are attempting to explain space travel to a Seagull.

I know exactly what you are talking about and WE both know how it feels to be in life and death situations. More than once for you as well apparently. Of course anyone can relate a OOOOOO scary story that happened in their life. They may even compare it to what we do every single day. But you and I know the difference. The every day walking up to the loaded car at 3 in the morning with backup an eternity away. The kicking the door in on the suicide subject and taking his knife away, then getting the stitches. Being spit in the face by someone screaming they have AIDS and want to kill you. Getting out of your car at a riot with shots going off all over the place...

Yeah, how many times on these threads have we heard, "I watch Cops" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I watch Shark too, but I am not a prosecutor.

They don't know JM, as simple as that. Of course they will now come an and postulate about their vast experience, but until you put the badge on, you can have no idea.

Words are so cheap JM, but you walk the walk my friend and I am proud to know you....

Semper

Semper, just out of curiousity, do you know what the term 'self righteous' means?

Don't the cops yell (quite loudly) "Show me your hands!"? Yet, some people decide to stick them in their jacket....

Darwin's Waiting Room comes to mind....

Originally posted by Terran Blue
Semper, just out of curiousity, do you know what the term 'self righteous' means?

Semp, please explain how SEEING cops in action gives less of an idea than HEARING cops talk about action.

You also didn't explain why these cops I SAW didn't blow 22 holes in these suspects, who PRETENDED that they were going to shoot the cops. Compare this to people getting mercked for "making a suspicious motion."

Originally posted by semperfortis
Look at the replies and it is clear you are attempting to explain space travel to a Seagull.

What was the point of starting your new thread complaining about people not seeing individuals and putting them into groups and categories if you cant do it yourself.

I get it, one rule for you and another for us.

I know exactly what you are talking about and WE both know how it feels to be in life and death situations.

Many people have dangerous jobs,some like the volunteer fire brigades and emergency services do it for free without expecting a slap on the back,they do it because theres a need.These type of guys deserve a coldy.
Are they a joke and meaningless compared to you also.

Yeah, how many times on these threads have we heard, "I watch Cops" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I watch Shark too, but I am not a prosecutor.

If someone has experienced personally a court room and has been ripped off by lawyers etc,they aren`t allowed an opinion to you of their negative experience?

They don't know JM, as simple as that. Of course they will now come an and postulate about their vast experience, but until you put the badge on, you can have no idea.

Why cant you offer the same like wise, until your in the shoes of anyone else who has an opposing view,who are you to say their wrong or a joke.
Your badge is not the be all and end all you`d like to think it is.

Maybe its just another mood swing from the best of the best?

No wonder people feel uneasy



[edit on 16-3-2007 by gps777]

GPS,

I apologize if I gave that impression, I was simply trying to support JM and apparently worded it wrong...

As for my "mood swings" well rest easy my friend, I'm all business on the street, I assure you...

What I was getting at, and evidently doing a poor job, was the psychological aspect of intentionally entering a life or death situation, day in and day out, for 10, 15 or 20 dollars an hour. I made 5.15 at my first police job.

As you are probably aware the phenomenon of "Fight or Flight" is a valid psychological concept. The body goes through numerous physiological changes outside of the individuals control. A police officer, if he wants to be a good one and stay alive, MUST learn to control "Fight or Flight" and function on a level far different from the uninitiated or inexperienced.

My point was simple. This can never be explained. I know this because it also can never be taught. The Officer either learns it or they do not on their own. Now many police never go through this as they may work their entire careers and never be in that situation. JM apparently is not one of these.

Not intending on being "Holier than thou" either. Sorry to have come off that way...

It is as simple as this...

I am a trained Sniper...

I can and have engaged targets at ranges exceeding 1500 meters. To indicate that you can not, is not being holier than thou, it is a fact unless you are also a trained Sniper..

Quoting Granpa Jones..

"No Brag, Just Fact"

Semper

Now I am just imagining a "Joes vs Pros" type of show where some joe has to go through police training or situations that arise constantly for the police.. wonder how the Joes would hold up... and Semper I can truelly understand what you mean on the sniper issue, I lived on a gun range for 6 years, some guys that have been shooting guns there whole life still dont have the ability that a trained sniper has.

Originally posted by semperfortis

As you are probably aware the phenomenon of "Fight or Flight" is a valid psychological concept. The body goes through numerous physiological changes outside of the individuals control. A police officer, if he wants to be a good one and stay alive, MUST learn to control "Fight or Flight" and function on a level far different from the uninitiated or inexperienced.

I don't correlate with the "flight/fight" synonyms. What do you have to say for the "knock-kneed-stupor" I've repeatedly witnessed, as an induced upon effect?

Fight or Flight is a proven psychological phenomenon.

Also commonly referred to as the "Acute Stress Response."

first described by Walter Cannon in 1927. His theory states that animals react to threats with a general discharge of the sympathetic nervous system, priming the animal for fighting or fleeing. This response was later recognized as the first stage of a general adaptation syndrome that regulates stress

These catecholamine hormones facilitate immediate physical reactions associated with a preparation for violent muscular action. (Gleitman, et al, 2004) These include the following:

* Acceleration of heart and lung action
* Inhibition of stomach and intestinal action
* Constriction of blood vessels in many parts of the body
* Liberation of nutrients for muscular action
* Dilation of blood vessels for muscles
* Inhibition of tear glands and salivation
* Dilation of pupil
* Relaxation of bladder
* Inhibition of erection
Fight or Flight

I have no idea what you were talking about..

Semper