Atheists in America

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
• i've postulated the existence of god and/or "jesus" for the purpose of several threads....

• i've argued for the POSSIBILITY that "jesus" was not a historical figure

• i'm actually 50/50 on the historicity of "jesus"

• and so what if "jesus" was a myth?

• i still agree with some of his teachings, and i'm an atheist

An atheist? From the above mentioned beliefs it's obvious you're just plain old confused. Nothing more.
Atheist? No. Confused? Yes.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
.......smear me as some sort of bigot that does nothing but attack a single religion

Yes, I've read your smears on Christianity.

Originally posted by zooeyglass14
So Essedarius could you explain why it'd take away your right to have a God if things happened such as these examples or there were no 10 commandments in courtrooms.

It doesn't take away my right at all, if all we are talking about is money and courtroom lobbies.

I simply don't think it would stop there. I see situations all the time where an Athiest is claiming that any semi-public practice of religion is like a slap in the face to them and I think that is absurd.

Here's the thing...and this is where I ask you for some insight because I can't see it from your point of view...it seems to me that most Atheist movements are not for Atheism, but against Theism. (Does that make sense?) The majority of Atheists that I've conversed with have selected that path not because they are certain that there is no God, but because they DESPISE the actions of the organized church.

In effect, every public movement I've seen for Atheism is not a move to promote Atheism, but to tear down the activities of Theists. Which is why I kind of shrug nervously when you say:

...So what is stopping you from practicing religion if this scenario comes into play? Surely no one would stop you from praying or from going to church.

I want to believe that...but then I see this:

Athiests sue nonsecular peace rally...

I don't mean to argue, I'm just curious since I can't really see it from your side.

That's cool...you can even argue if you want.

Madness....I want you, and ALL atheists, Buddhists, Moslems, Jews, and whoever else to know: If you are being judged, discriminated against, or persecuted by someone who calls themself "Christian", then the true love of God, the Holy Spirit, does NOT reside in that person. Period. Judgement is reserved for My God, and Him alone. "Christians" who worry themselves about monuments in courthouses, God's name on the dollar bill, supposed "pro-God" legislation (abortion, gay marriage, etc) are deceived. My God tells me that, first and foremost, I should love Him with all my heart, soul and mind. Secondly, I should love my neighbor as myself. Let the people who run the world trouble themselves with the other things. Those who follow Jesus should be like pilgrims, wanderers...strangers on the earth, helping others with patience, loving-kindness, and a sincere heart. I will NEVER judge you, or anyone else for that matter. Nor will I outwardly try to "convert" you by thumping my Bible in your face, and acting like I'm in on some big secret that only a "select few" are allowed to possess. The best I can do for you or anybody else is be sincere and be of service in any way I can.

eyes2see

Originally posted by eyes2see
If you are being judged, discriminated against, or persecuted by someone who calls themself "Christian", then the true love of God, the Holy Spirit, does NOT reside in that person.

Awe-some.

Speak on...

Originally posted by rocknroll
An atheist? From the above mentioned beliefs it's obvious you're just plain old confused. Nothing more.

refusing to take a hardline stance of the historicity of a figure whose existence is in question is confused?
agreeing with certain points of a philosopher is confused?
arguing possibilities is confused

i am a "soft" atheist
one who says "i am almost certain that there is no god"
a very logical statement
and not the least bit arrogant (like many would claim about us)

Atheist? No. Confused? Yes.

believe what you want, but i'm an atheist

Yes, I've read your smears on Christianity.

first of all, it's a belief system
i'm allowed to be critical of it
secondly, where have i smeared christianity?

and eyes, thank you
i agree with gandhi in many ways
i like your christ
but many of your christians are so unlike him

[edit on 2/7/07 by madnessinmysoul]

People want to believe they are in control, if something happens thats beyond their control they call upon a "higher power" just to make them selfs feel like they have done something that will help them regain control of whatever situation they are in. Atheists have just evolved slightly higher then the most to understand that.

Originally posted by Lecter
People want to believe they are in control, if something happens thats beyond their control they call upon a "higher power" just to make them selfs feel like they have done something that will help them regain control of whatever situation they are in. Atheists have just evolved slightly higher then the most to understand that.

Interesting theory.

Here's another way of looking at it:

If there is no God...
People who believe that there is a higher power, and found solace and direction in that belief, have evolved past those that have decided instead to cling to the grim and desolate reality that life holds no real meaning.

If there is a God...
People who believe that there is a higher power clearly have a more defined and evolved sense of the universe. (Please don't jump all over this...I just wanted to fight Lecter's fire with fire.)

I've never understood the reasoning behind the veiled shots that are thrown at Christians akin to the one Lecter made above.

"Evolution" means that you are somehow better prepared to face your environment.

Does Atheism really give you a leg up in dealing with problems?

If there is a God...
People who believe that there is a higher power clearly have a more defined and evolved sense of the universe. (Please don't jump all over this...I just wanted to fight Lecter's fire with fire.)



I will write a proper response to that tomorrow but can you tell me why most of my friends break most of the so called "10 commandments". I think since they cannot grasp the whole concept of religion and where it came from they claim to believe in a higher power just as a safety line for their own minds sake.

Originally posted by Essedarius
Does Atheism really give you a leg up in dealing with problems?

well, it depends on the problems

i honestly don't think that atheism alone gives you a leg up
atheism in comparison to certain religious beliefs will

case and point
gallileo, he ruled out a religious precept in the pursuit of science (sure, old example, but still a good one)
so relative lack of belief (the man was still supposedly a devout catholic, i've yet to look into it) from gallileo gave him a leg up in science

and honestly, that's where i think it is most relavent

there was that case of i think an environmental secretary saying we shouldn't worry about cutting down the rainforest because the second coming was so soon
that's a relative leg down dealt by religious belief

on its own, atheism doesn't help you out more

though it can be argued that religion is outright dangerous to the world (the works of richard dawkins and sam harris deal with this a lot)

From the thousands of cases of near death experiences I have read, many from athiests as well, it seems to me that there is some kind of supreme conciousness, but its also obvious that anyone and everyone goes to 'heaven', and its different and yet similar for everyone; it doesn't matter what your religion on earth is, nor whether you accept some savior or pray a certain number of times every day facing your chosen holy city.

I saw that report on CNN and I was horrified, all of those people were very religious, and two of them hated the fact that black people were being discriminated against so badly in America, but easily turned on atheists and hypocritically told them to 'shut up', which is what white people had unjustly been saying to black people for a hundred some years; but in that case it was diplorable and unacceptable. Its as if atheists are subhuman to these people.

Complete hypocrisy, double standards and selfishness.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
god in my pledge
why do i have to acknowledge "1 nation under god" to pledge my allegiance to a country i love?

Discrimination is alive and well in so many areas, and it truly saddens me. In a country that is supposed to be so dedicated to freedom, why must anyone have to fight for the freedom from religion? It should be automatic.

I was very proud of my son (10 years old) when he began to refuse to recite the pledge or to even stand while it was being said. I backed him 100% on his decision and will continue to do so.

edit to fix quote



[edit on 2/7/07 by wellwhatnow]

Originally posted by Lecter
...can you tell me why most of my friends break most of the so called "10 commandments".

Nope. I can tell you why I do:

Sometimes I want to sound cooler than I am so I lie. My buddy has a really nice house in the country and I have a condo and I covet his house all the time. Oh, his wife is hot too and sometimes my mind wanders. Sometimes I get mad at my folks and don't really give them the respect they deserve. I like American Idol.

Man...other than murder and adultery...I don't really do very well.

I think since they cannot grasp the whole concept of religion and where it came from they claim to believe in a higher power just as a safety line for their own minds sake.

I'm pretty sure I disagree.

And again, I won't speak for your friends, but just because I'm not a perfect Christian doesn't mean I'm not a sincere Christian.

I really want to be good. I really do. But I mess up. People do that.

Come on...we send .500 hitters to the hall of fame in baseball.
But if a Christian does one thing wrong you go and question the entire foundation and legitimacy of religion.

(I'm being a little flippant...but not a lot.)

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
gallileo, he ruled out a religious precept in the pursuit of science (sure, old example, but still a good one) so relative lack of belief (the man was still supposedly a devout catholic, i've yet to look into it) from gallileo gave him a leg up in science

A good example, but I would argue that Galileo's open mind gave him a leg up...and, contrary to many examples in today's church, faith in God and an open mind are not mutually exclusive concepts.

there was that case of i think an environmental secretary saying we shouldn't worry about cutting down the rainforest because the second coming was so soon...that's a relative leg down dealt by religious belief

No fair. Idiocy is idiocy. You know I can't defend that.

Originally posted by eyes2see
Madness....I want you, and ALL atheists, Buddhists, Moslems, Jews, and whoever else to know: If you are being judged, discriminated against, or persecuted by someone who calls themself "Christian", then the true love of God, the Holy Spirit, does NOT reside in that person. Period. Judgement is reserved for My God, and Him alone.

Oh give me a freakin break! He doesn't even believe in Jesus, let alone the Holy Spirit. What do you think God thinks about that?

Originally posted by eyes2see
"Christians" who worry themselves about monuments in courthouses, God's name on the dollar bill, supposed "pro-God" legislation (abortion, gay marriage, etc) are deceived.

"Christians" who support the removal of God in monuments/courthouses, God's name on the dollar bill, who support legislation of abortion (murder), gay marriage (homosexuality), etc, are extermely deceived.

Originally posted by eyes2see
My God tells me that, first and foremost, I should love Him with all my heart, soul and mind. Secondly, I should love my neighbor as myself.

Let the people who run the world trouble themselves with the other things.

Oh, you mean your "neighbors"?

Originally posted by eyes2see
I will NEVER judge you, or anyone else for that matter.

When Jesus tells me to spread His belief, and someone wrongly judges me and wrongly tells me that i am "proud and judgmental", and that i should conform to his preferred mode of preaching, i must say, No and Never, i will always obey God rather than man. If my words bother you, then let them turn you to the Truth. Christ was crucified because they did not want to hear him either, but wished that he was less "judgmental" as you say.

Originally posted by eyes2see
Nor will I outwardly try to "convert" you.....

We're in agreement, because you'd definitely be wasting your time.

Originally posted by eyes2see
The best I can do for you or anybody else is be sincere and be of service in any way I can.

Oh I see, and as a "good" Christian kiss his Godless a**.


[edit on 7-2-2007 by rocknroll]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
first of all, it's a belief system
i'm allowed to be critical of it
secondly, where have i smeared christianity?

And I'm allowed to be critical of your belief system (or as you say "judgemental").
I have no desire to dig for proof that you smear Christianity on this form.
Haven't we talked about this before, Madness? Or am I just having deja vu?

Originally posted by rocknroll
And I'm allowed to be critical of your belief system (or as you say "judgemental").

there is literally no belief system to be critical of
atheism isn't something broad and encompassing
the only real tennant all atheists share is the non-existence of any sort of god
that is all you can really be critical of
now, if you want to get into the individual moral philosophies of each atheist, go ahead
but that's the problem, 99.9% of atheism is personal

I have no desire to dig for proof that you smear Christianity on this form.
Haven't we talked about this before, Madness? Or am I just having deja vu?

i think it's deja-vu

Originally posted by Essedarius
A good example, but I would argue that Galileo's open mind gave him a leg up...and, contrary to many examples in today's church, faith in God and an open mind are not mutually exclusive concepts.

true, but in relation to science, most religions aren't very open-minded
hence why i can't really answer your question on anything more than a case to case basis

No fair. Idiocy is idiocy. You know I can't defend that.

...you're right

if that is anything it is one of the most horrible fusions of religion and idiocy
and there are a good number of examples of really idiotic atheists

Originally posted by rocknroll
Christ was crucified because they did not want to hear him either, but wished that he was less "judgmental" as you say.

False.

See now rocknroll, this is how "Christianity" and "Judgemental" have become synonyms and it really pisses me off.

Jesus was crucified because he was NOT JUDGEMENTAL ENOUGH according to the religious establishment at the time.

He was bashed for hanging out with tax collectors, prostitutes, people who didn't wash their hands right...he was called out for "working" on the Sabbath and claiming that he was around to make the road to heaven a lot SIMPLER than the organized church was making it out to be!

Why would you try to flip that?
It's a VERY VERY important tenet of our religion...possibly THE most important...and you have completely reversed it and slapped people across the face with it.

WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT???

I'm an Atheist too and don't receive any ridicule IRL(people trying to convert me however...). Online however, is a much different story... TV is also much different than RL. I saw the piece on CNN and was completely astounded and offended by the completely unbalanced "panel of experts" they had assembled on the topic. They are getting to be just as "Fair and Balanced" as Feux News these days it seems.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by sardion2000]

Originally posted by sardion2000
TV is also much different than RL. I saw the piece on CNN and was completely astounded and offended by the completely unbalanced "panel of experts" they had assembled on the topic.

yep, an ESPN analyst is really an expert on the state of atheists in america

They are getting to be just as "Fair and Balanced" as Feux News these days it seems.

commercial news is interested in "balance"
"balance" in their executives checkbooks, that is
that is where the internet and public radio come in