Atheists in America

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Shizzle..thanks for the site about the "motto of the United States" in 1956. I did not know that was the date it was put in effect. However I have one problem with that. The context used by Madnessinmysoul and others was about the moneys and the usage of the term "In God We Trust" on the moneys. To my knowlege and having some olde coins dating back to when there was actual silver in them, 9 tenths fine, is that this phrase was on them long before 1956. It just continues unto this day. Anyone into numanistic coins can confirm this. This was true also on many of the Gold coins dating back before 1933 or when the gold coins were removed from circulation. " In God We Trust."

I am by no means stating that that is when they started with the "in god we trust" motto I was only being specific as to when it became law. In case you didn't find it there this link goes into the history of when it began to be implemented prior to getting wrote down as law.

I dont know nor agree that a persons intelligence is determined by what they want to learn. I am not sure that is a valid statement. It is an intresting statement. I think a persons intelligence shows in how they put what they know to use..or to use in learning more...for thier benifit. The process and the results. How you use or not use what you know for your benifit. This is different from what they "want to learn."

I can agree with your side there in that you can know everything in the world but if never implemented it doesn't make a whole lot of difference. But, take savants like Kim Peek for example. By way of his memory alone he is one bright individual. But he has a "want" to learn and the brain glitch to retain it, be it from a mental condition but none the less. I'd be willing to bet good money if he ever set foot onto the set of jeopardy he would clean house, even up against some of the brightest PHD's out there. This same guy has trouble putting his own socks on. So I do agree implementation of intelligence is important but can not be used to determine it. I was more getting at the point that just because there are shortcomings in public education does not give you a blank check to cut people down with it. Most schools have a library and granted the quantity of books in there there is a vast amount of knowledge kids can delve into while there. Just because the curriculum has a lot of room for improvement does not mean a kid with a hunger for knowledge can't go to the library and look for something that has more sustenance during lunch or study hall. There have been some bright people that have came from public schools and to say that someones intelligence is limited by being stuck there I strongly disagree with.

I dont like to be around smokers. Nor dippers...or tobacco chewers.
I think it is gross. I dont however tell these people what to do in thier own homes..or cars..etc etc. I also dont tell them to stop smoking or chewing/dipping.
I also dont think it should be banned from stores...or advertisements which seem to bombard me constantly like a deadly assault from the various medias. When I see this stuff I ignore it and go on especially since I dont purchase this stuff.

I don't think it should be banned either but would like to ask how you would like it to have "Copenhagen snuff" or "drink jim beam" on your currency? I know you will probably never see it but would you still have the same I don't purchase this stuff mentality? Or even taking it a step further would "in satan we trust" still be another case of "I don't subscribe to that belief so it doesn't bother me"? I don't know a lot of Christians who would like a fat stack of those on payday. People can make the argument just ignore it easier when they are not the ones who have to do the ignoring.



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[edit on 14-2-2007 by shizzle5150]

Orangetom, as a coin collector, I can tell you that the earliest instance of "In God We Trust" appearing on American currency in 1864. The express purpose of doing so was to have a Federally-sponsered acknowledgement of the existence of God.

You can find out more from the U.S. Department of Treasury (edit - nevermind, someone else already provided that link).

Personally, I don't think our government has any business endorsing religion, which is exactly what this inscription does. I don't think anyone here is saying that we should completely eliminate religion from public life; our only concern is the extent to which the government itself endorses religion.

People get kind of nervous when a country that is supposed to be a representative democracy starts proclaiming the existance of a God, has its people carry legal tender which bears that proclamation, has its people declare that proclamation whenever pledging their allegiance, and including the laws of a religion in courthouses (especially when those religious laws have next to nothing to do with the laws of our country).

[edit on 14-2-2007 by Providence]

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
lizardking, the whole taking the god off of money, out of the pledge, and out of the courtroom has to do with the constitution

religions are free because we are free from them
if there was no freedom from religion, then any single religion could gain supremacy through government

Sorry dude...but this is sophistry of the worst type and attempts to take advantage of peoples ignorance..and there is alot of ignorance out here ..even among athiests.

You should know much better than this but have been programmed not to think this through. If this is a statement from "expert" athiest it is at odds with what the history states.

Actually, madnessinmysoul hit it rght on. The words on the money itself won't cause a theocracy, but the ideal behind it will. Again, OrangeTom, it's clear you wouldn't want a theocracy, and we appreciate that. But MANY christians would welcome it. What's worse, the crazies (Falwell, Robertson) are in a higher position of power than the 'moderates' (usually becuase of the push for a theocracy) and have been trying to orhcestrate one since they've rose to their current power. It won't happen, unless someone just a little bit crazier than bush gets in office.

Again. Look at Iran, etc.: They are a Theocracy because of their ideology, and many christians have the EXACT same mentaliity. It doesn't matter WHAT religion it is, any ideology based on faith in government is destructive, dangerous, and (though I hate to use the word) stupid.

If one religion keeps getting their way, they'll eventually think they own the place, and squash other religious ideas, making them illegal, as communist China did under Mao (except instead of no religion, you'd HAVE to acknowledge, adhere to and participate in the 'one' religion that gains control). I don't want that to happen. Especially to such a powerful country.

edit: Providence well put.

[edit on 2/14/2007 by Arcane Demesne]

I was surfing today and came across this, It's a Christian interviewing an atheist about "Can Atheists Find Recovery In a 12 Step program?" I'm guessing it's a recovery from a drug addiction as he mentions addiction but not exactly sure what it is that these people do.

Anyways, HERE is the link and I think it is an excellent read. Some great points made on "atheists in America".

If anybody takes the time to read it I would like to hear what their thoughts are.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I bet no one comes to the door any more. Except Mormons and JW.

nope, others do as well
the campus ministry for christ does as well
and various other evangelical groups (mainly various different pentecostal denominations) bother me door to door

Wow Here is a dandy, I think a lot of christians feel this way toward atheists only don't voice it when they are talking to you person to person.

Link to article

Call me crazy but I don't think the bibles teachings and this persons views coincide very well.

Originally posted by shizzle5150
Wow

Here is a dandy, I think a lot of christians feel this way toward atheists only don't voice it when they are talking to you person to person.

Link to article

yeah, i've walked in on a christian who used to be my friend talking just like that
sadly, a lot people don't realize the history of currency and the pledge well enough to actually discuss these things intellectually

Call me crazy but I don't think the bibles teachings and this persons views coincide very well.

well, some of them do
some of them don't
depends on where you look

Hi, I am the local agent for the FBE&P - the Federal Bureau of Evangelization and Prostelyzation. I would like to set a few things straight.

The Congress is indeed about to enact the Federal Criminalization Atheist Act - it will indeed to be a Federal Crime to be an atheist. Camps are being established as we speak.

A National Interdominational Church is also authorized. All citizens and resident aliens are required to tithe.

FBE&P agents now have - under the Patriot Act - full authorization to wiretap your phone and data lines. We also have a standing 'no-knock' warrant to enter your house and evangelize by force.

Those who refuse to say 'Under God' during the Pledge will be shot.

Ridiculous. Of course it is. I have never seen a loan or job application that has box that has religion that must be checked and verified.

Is the US a theocracy? Of course not. Those who are concerned with the religious bent of the current administration need to be mindful of the power of Vox Populi. The people of the US - at least those who voted - put the man in office. If you don't like it, run a candidate. Or - as is often the case, vote or cork it; you have no cause to complain that you didn't win if you don't play the game.

Is this country founded on basic Judeo-Christian principles. It most certainly is. Despite the quote from John Adams and others, the US was founded by religiously motivated dissidents, after all. The formative hotbeds of the American Revolution were cities founded by Puritans and other devout people. Despite that, the Constitution - wisely - carefully seperates formal power of religions from the machinations of government.

One of the reasons that Atheists feel dispossessed is that they don't have an identity. I - as a Roman Catholic - belong to the largest organized religion in the world. This gives me a sense of fellowship and connection with people anywhere. I have attended mass in the four corners of the world and known that while i was there that there were millions of my brothers and sisters doing the exact same thing at the exact time. Mass in Peru is pretty much the same as a mass in Germany or Korea - the language may be different, but the tradition, ritual, and the Eucharist are the same.

Finally, all people should be thankful for the work of religious groups. One of the local Catholic hospitals - currently under attack by non-religious state legislators - ate some $40,000,000 in unpaid medical expenses. Catholic Charities - a Roman Catholic relief service - fills the gaping void left in the government's so-called social service umbrella. My local church and others in my Diocese fund homeless shelters, soup kitchens, drug and alcohol counciling programs, health care clinics, halfway houses, food banks, and a host of other assistance programs. the St. Vincent de Paul society gives countless dollars to the needy to pay for oil, rent, bills, or other emergency expense for those in need. I have worked in these shelters and kitchens. I have never asked if you believed in God before I gave you a meal or showed you to a warm bed for the night.

To be frank, I see the charge that Atheists are discriminated against by those nasty, whiny, self-righteous religious so-and-so's to be somewhat ludicrous. A conspiracy? Please. I don't care what you believe or don't believe... well, let me amend that. I have a problem with Satanists. Other than that, well, that's your business. Will I talk to you about my faith? Sure, if you want to. Will I come pounding on your door? Roman Catholics don't really work that way. But when I do get the LDS or Jehovah Witnesses or some other religion knocking on the door, I politely tell them I am not interested. If they persist - and some do - I get less polite. And I agree that those people are annoying. But part of a conspiracy? Nah.

One of the problems with atheism is that in order for it to work, it must be absolute. Many atheists I know have a problem with some of the things I do. During meals, I always say grace. When with others who don't share my faith, I bow my head and say a quick, quiet one. I have had people tell me that THAT offended them. Get over yourself. If your belief system is so fragile that it can't withstand someone behaving in a way that contradicts it, then you have a problem, my friend.

Freedom of religion doesn't just mean freedom FROM religion. It is also freedom to PRACTICE religion. Like I said earlier, I will still feed you, I will still give you shelter and clothing. I will still write those checks that support the Catholic hospitals that eat millions in care to the poor. I won't ask for your blessing. I won't ask for your thanks. I won't ask for you to convert. I won't ask for anything from you. But I will say this - when the Atheists of America contribute as much as the people of Faith do, then you can talk with a little more legitimacy. I find most Atheists to be pretty narcissistic (and no, I am not stereotyping, I am speaking from my experience - so there!). As a self-centered person, of course they are going to be critical and question the intent of those who do indeed put others before themselves.

To those who will accept it, may God bless you....

woo-hoo! I'm Roman Catholic too!

Originally posted by shantyman
Ridiculous. Of course it is. I have never seen a loan or job application that has box that has religion that must be checked and verified.

of course not, but discrimintation isn't always O V E R T.

Is the US a theocracy? Of course not. Those who are concerned with the religious bent of the current administration need to be mindful of the power of Vox Populi. The people of the US - at least those who voted - put the man in office.

the majority tends to oppress a minority, popular support can't excuse it.

If you don't like it, run a candidate. Or - as is often the case, vote or cork it; you have no cause to complain that you didn't win if you don't play the game.

that's the problem. WE CAN'T because this country is backwards and intolerant towards the non-religious.

Is this country founded on basic Judeo-Christian principles. It most certainly is. Despite the quote from John Adams and others, the US was founded by religiously motivated dissidents, after all.

deists? people following locke? and the grand-daddy of the revolution, ben franklin the atheist?

The formative hotbeds of the American Revolution were cities founded by Puritans and other devout people. Despite that, the Constitution - wisely - carefully seperates formal power of religions from the machinations of government.

yep, secularism

One of the reasons that Atheists feel dispossessed is that they don't have an identity.

no, atheists actually tend to be fiercly independent. i for one actually hate most people.

Finally, all people should be thankful for the work of religious groups. One of the local Catholic hospitals - currently under attack by non-religious state legislators - ate some $40,000,000 in unpaid medical expenses. Catholic Charities - a Roman Catholic relief service - fills the gaping void left in the government's so-called social service umbrella. My local church and others in my Diocese fund homeless shelters, soup kitchens, drug and alcohol counciling programs, health care clinics, halfway houses, food banks, and a host of other assistance programs. the St. Vincent de Paul society gives countless dollars to the needy to pay for oil, rent, bills, or other emergency expense for those in need. I have worked in these shelters and kitchens. I have never asked if you believed in God before I gave you a meal or showed you to a warm bed for the night.

but the only reason catholic groups can do this is because they have the money to do so! atheists build hospitals too

One of the problems with atheism is that in order for it to work, it must be absolute. Many atheists I know have a problem with some of the things I do. During meals, I always say grace. When with others who don't share my faith, I bow my head and say a quick, quiet one. I have had people tell me that THAT offended them. Get over yourself. If your belief system is so fragile that it can't withstand someone behaving in a way that contradicts it, then you have a problem, my friend.

well, i have a problem with any

Freedom of religion doesn't just mean freedom FROM religion.

read the ruling on everson v board of education, it tells a different story.

It is also freedom to PRACTICE religion.

and nobody wants to take that away from you, just keep it to yourself.

But I will say this - when the Atheists of America contribute as much as the people of Faith do, then you can talk with a little more legitimacy.

$30 billion (gates)
and
$40 billion (buffet)
that's 2 atheists alone

the only problem is that you're comparing 2 populations that aren't the same size. atheists make up around 10% of the population, they can't be expected to give as much as 70% of the population. you'd want them to give $7 for each dollar you give out.

I find most Atheists to be pretty narcissistic (and no, I am not stereotyping, I am speaking from my experience - so there!).

"personal experience" is just a mask for stereotyping

As a self-centered person, of course they are going to be critical and question the intent of those who do indeed put others before themselves.

again, i'm not self-centered. people regularly tell me i need to start taking care of my own needs.

To those who will accept it, may God bless you....

and may you have a good life