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Atheists in America

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posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 12:16 PM
link   
Wow. What a delightful read with my morning coffee.

My favorite was the quick spar between rocknroll and madness. I don't think an Atheist has PWNED a Christian like that since Nero.

I don't really have anything to add to that mess.

I disagree with madness on the whole "is there a God" thing.
I disagree with rnr on the whole "Jesus was judgmental" thing.
Oh, I also disagree with rnr on the whole "Essedarius is a lukewarm ignoramus" thing. (But, you know, in his defense he did say "no offense" so...that's cool.)

In the end, I would much rather have a beer with madness and eyes2see than rnr.

No offense.

Onward:


Originally posted by Providence
If your life would have no meaning unless there is a God, then it seems to me that your view is the grim and desolate one.


I do find the idea that we blink out of existence when we die to be grim and desolate. I am much more inspired by the idea that there is a greater purpose that will be revealed after we leave this existence.

Is that rubbish? It seems like common sense to me.
Wouldn't you agree that, if there is no afterlife, that our existence here lacks a certain level of purpose?


People can be right on one point without having “a more defined and evolved sense of the universe.” If you believe in God/s and He/they do exist, then you are right, but that does not necessarily make you superior. The same goes for being an atheist if God does not exist.


Let me put out the disclaimor that, at the time, I was responding to a post that used the word "evolution" and I was using the term to counter a point, not to imply that believers are inherently more intelligent (we've seen ample proof on this very thread that that isn't true).

That said, I do think that Christians have a brighter outlook than Atheists:

If there's no God, who is rewarded for their beliefs?: nobody.
That "blink out of existence" scenario really precludes any celebration.

If there IS a God, who is rewarded for their beliefs: believers.

All theology aside, it's a mathematical edge: 1 decent afterlife to none.




posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 12:27 PM
link   
Hey Esse....
If I could e-mail you an ice cold Newcastle or perhaps a Foster's, I certainly would. If youre ever in the Atlanta Ga. area, drinks are on me(haha)
God Bless,
eyes2see



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 12:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by eyes2see
If I could e-mail you an ice cold Newcastle or perhaps a Foster's, I certainly would.


Hey I think I read in the Science and Technology forum that this is totally possible.

Or was that Survival Techniques...?

Mmmmm...e-beer.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:05 PM
link   

I do find the idea that we blink out of existence when we die to be grim and desolate. I am much more inspired by the idea that there is a greater purpose that will be revealed after we leave this existence.
I can sympathize with that somewhat, but not completely. I don’t see anything wrong with finding one’s own purpose rather than having it secretly dictated only to be revealed after the said life is over.


Is that rubbish?
Is it rubbish to say that only a theistic life can be meaningful? Yes.


Wouldn't you agree that, if there is no afterlife, that our existence here lacks a certain level of purpose?
No, not at all. I’ve known too many people who don’t believe in a personal afterlife that live far more purposeful lives than some theists, and some of the most meaningful things in my life have been inarguably finite.

Keep in mind I’m a theist myself, but I don’t see any reason to believe that a God or an infinite existence (which I’m not even sure I desire) is all that gives my life purpose.

Plus, even if there is no God, why does that mean that there is no afterlife?


If there's no God, who is rewarded for their beliefs?: nobody.
You are basically saying that, if there is no God, the truth isn’t worth knowing. You are perfectly free to believe that, but I don’t see how that is any less dismal than having a finite existence. You are also assuming that there is no afterlife unless there is a God.


That "blink out of existence" scenario really precludes any celebration.
That depends on what you mean. If you mean that the “blink” scenario precludes any celebration—as in, nothing at all is worth being happy about unless we live for eternity—then I certainly disagree.

If, on the other hand, you simply mean there is nothing worth celebrating about “bliking out,” perhaps we agree. That said, finding out that your wife that you love with all of your heart is cheating on you precludes celebration as well, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth knowing if it is true.


If there IS a God, who is rewarded for their beliefs: believers.
Depending on your view of God.


All theology aside, it's a mathematical edge: 1 decent afterlife to none.
Only if you assume there is no value of knowing the truth in the atheistic scenario and that, in the theistic scenario, God only rewards believers. Plus, you are assuming that there are only two possibilities: an extremely specific type of God exists (the Christian one?), or no deities exist at all. Pascal’s wager is as flawed today as it was the day he penned it.


[edit on 8-2-2007 by Providence]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:14 PM
link   
um...
is anyone going to start discussing the CNN segment?
or maybe the position atheists hold in the average american's wordview?
or something relating to atheists and america?



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


you can still have a god, just not through the expenditure of tax dollars
removing "in god we trust" from currency won't affect your religion, will it?
or will removing god from the pledge suddenly cause you to not be allowed religion?



Madnessinmysoul,

My experience with athiests is that most of them believe in the system of logic and reason...rationale. A certain amount of common sense born out through logic.

Your statement above is very intresting and telling. However what I am going to point out is very easy to see but not thought out very well or often even by my Christian bretheren.

I have often said that there is much ignorance about everything out here including religion/Christianity by my Christian bretheren.

Concerning money which you quoted above...follow the logic and reason here. Bear with me through this.

By virtue of the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 the founders of this country put into effect a system of Coinage..in gold, silver, and copper.

What is very intresting about this coinage act when you read it through and know what it portends is that it establishes a system of weights and measures in these metals. In otherwords the money is the metal ...of a specific weight and fineness. The coin is only intended to standardize the measure of these metals.

IF you look at our coinage before the copper nickele fiasco we have today...you will notice that if you line up the coinage by size..

A silver dollar is twice the weight and the same fineness in silver as a 50 cent piece. The 50 cent piece twice the weight and the same fineness of the quarter. The dime is one tenth the size and weight of the doller in silver same fineness of the metal. There was at one time a coin in circulation called a Half Dime. One twentieth the weight and in the same fineness of the dollar of silver. When they went to nickles they even tried to blend in a five cent weight of silver into the nickles as this was the most easily lost coin..the half dime due to its small size.

What we have here is a system of linear measures just like measuring spoons or cups in our kitchens...there was a logic a rationale to them if you look at thier order and line them up.

The Gold and copper requirements for coinage follow the same pattern..just weights , balances , scales and measures. A logic , a reason , a rationale.

This logic and reason..this rationale corresponds to the Biblical requirement of a system of just weights and measures. A just system of scales and balances. Our Founders understood this quite clearly. What was that about our Founders not believing in God?? Or being diests?? I think they understood precisely what the biblical requirements were in coinage and balances and scales/measures.
I now know the name of the God of the Founders...by His very Name.
By the very example...the very substance they honored in the coinage Act of April 2, 1792, A biblical system of just weights and measures..just balances and just scales. You will find this instruction in the Olde Testament in many places.

To not transact buisness between men in this manner Biblically is called abomination...sometimes whoredom...or the selling of souls. Basically dishonesty...fraud...which is abomination.

When paper notes came about ..there was an attempt to keep this sensable by putting on the notes the phrase " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand." Meaning you could take the notes to a bank and get the coinage if prefered for the notes. If you ever see olde notes mostly at coinage shops you can see this phrase on them down at the bottom. I have in my collection several of these olde notes as well as a couple of olde half dimes.

However ..contrast this with todays coinage since we now have people in charge of our coinage with high degrees and scholarship/letters in logic and reason.

Today we have a copper nickle system in which we have still in circulation a Susan B, Anthony doller which is two thirds the size of the 50 cent piece yet claims on its surface to be twice the value. This is human logic and reason to the max. You have to go to school to get this dumb so as to foist this off on a gullible public. It doesnt make good nonsense. This is out and out fraud. Yet our leaders of logic and reason have been foisting this off on us for over 40 years now since the disappearence of silver coinage...even earlier in gold coinage and also the loss of the term " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand" at the bottom of the notes.

What we have here in the copper nickle coinage system is a system of unjust weights and measures..unjust scales and balences. A fraud. A dishonesty. Yet our government is insistent on keeping the phrase "In God We Trust" on the coinage. The phrase " Will pay to the Bearer on Demand" has been removed from the paper notes so there is no priority to deliver the substance..silver or gold. The copper has been removed from the pennys as of 1982 or so...and replaced with a copper clad zinc slug. Scrape a new penny and see for yourself. This is the essence of counterfitting.


Madnessinmysoul..What I am able to quickly surmise by logic and reason is that our government has somewhere switched from the God of just balances and scales...just weights and measures to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances...to the counterfitter..the fraud...the phoney.

This was done without ever revealing this to the general public. That they had switched gods.

Do you know the name of the god of fraud...counterfitting? The god of lies?
Remember the claim of people of logic and reason...our founders were diests?? Or were they??

Mind you now ....it is obvious that they still believe in a god today. But it it obvious to people who can think and follow this demonstration what actually is the name of this god.

Follow the logic and reason here..Madnessinmysoul.
You can go to any coin shop and ask them to lay out the gold and silver coins in the logical decending order to see it demonstrated to you ..then line up the copper nickle system into its unlogical order for you and you can see it in all its nakedness. The copper nickle system is made so as to appear logical and reasonable to people not educated in just weights and balances,scales and measures. In otherwords people who know very little Bible or Biblical History. But it is not logical and reasonable once you know...the king here is naked..the king has no clothes. The counterfit king. The phoney. The fraud.

By the very system of coinage and notes not redeemable anymore our government now has the ability to steal from us unlimited by fraudulent issue of unjust measures, weights, balances, and scales.
The very abomination which makes the follow up abominations possible in a nation..and we are going down that trail rapidly.

Think this through carefully for there are people on this thread who can clearly follow this logic and reason and still know the biblical instructions for this very thing...and why it was necessary for things to be this way.

They know the name of the Counterfitter...by name.
THey now know the name of the god of the US Government...and when the switch to the counterfitter took place.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


you can still have a god, just not through the expenditure of tax dollars
removing "in god we trust" from currency won't affect your religion, will it?
or will removing god from the pledge suddenly cause you to not be allowed religion?



Madnessinmysoul,

My experience with athiests is that most of them believe in the system of logic and reason...rationale. A certain amount of common sense born out through logic.

Your statement above is very intresting and telling. However what I am going to point out is very easy to see but not thought out very well or often even by my Christian bretheren.

I have often said that there is much ignorance about everything out here including religion/Christianity by my Christian bretheren.

Concerning money which you quoted above...follow the logic and reason here. Bear with me through this.

By virtue of the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 the founders of this country put into effect a system of Coinage..in gold, silver, and copper.

What is very intresting about this coinage act when you read it through and know what it portends is that it establishes a system of weights and measures in these metals. In otherwords the money is the metal ...of a specific weight and fineness. The coin is only intended to standardize the measure of these metals.

IF you look at our coinage before the copper nickele fiasco we have today...you will notice that if you line up the coinage by size..

A silver dollar is twice the weight and the same fineness in silver as a 50 cent piece. The 50 cent piece twice the weight and the same fineness of the quarter. The dime is one tenth the size and weight of the doller in silver same fineness of the metal. There was at one time a coin in circulation called a Half Dime. One twentieth the weight and in the same fineness of the dollar of silver. When they went to nickles they even tried to blend in a five cent weight of silver into the nickles as this was the most easily lost coin..the half dime due to its small size.

What we have here is a system of linear measures just like measuring spoons or cups in our kitchens...there was a logic a rationale to them if you look at thier order and line them up.

The Gold and copper requirements for coinage follow the same pattern..just weights , balances , scales and measures. A logic , a reason , a rationale.

This logic and reason..this rationale corresponds to the Biblical requirement of a system of just weights and measures. A just system of scales and balances. Our Founders understood this quite clearly. What was that about our Founders not believing in God?? Or being diests?? I think they understood precisely what the biblical requirements were in coinage and balances and scales/measures.
I now know the name of the God of the Founders...by His very Name.
By the very example...the very substance they honored in the coinage Act of April 2, 1792, A biblical system of just weights and measures..just balances and just scales. You will find this instruction in the Olde Testament in many places.

To not transact buisness between men in this manner Biblically is called abomination...sometimes whoredom...or the selling of souls. Basically dishonesty...fraud...which is abomination.

When paper notes came about ..there was an attempt to keep this sensable by putting on the notes the phrase " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand." Meaning you could take the notes to a bank and get the coinage if prefered for the notes. If you ever see olde notes mostly at coinage shops you can see this phrase on them down at the bottom. I have in my collection several of these olde notes as well as a couple of olde half dimes.

However ..contrast this with todays coinage since we now have people in charge of our coinage with high degrees and scholarship/letters in logic and reason.

Today we have a copper nickle system in which we have still in circulation a Susan B, Anthony doller which is two thirds the size of the 50 cent piece yet claims on its surface to be twice the value. This is human logic and reason to the max. You have to go to school to get this dumb so as to foist this off on a gullible public. It doesnt make good nonsense. This is out and out fraud. Yet our leaders of logic and reason have been foisting this off on us for over 40 years now since the disappearence of silver coinage...even earlier in gold coinage and also the loss of the term " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand" at the bottom of the notes.

What we have here in the copper nickle coinage system is a system of unjust weights and measures..unjust scales and balences. A fraud. A dishonesty. Yet our government is insistent on keeping the phrase "In God We Trust" on the coinage. The phrase " Will pay to the Bearer on Demand" has been removed from the paper notes so there is no priority to deliver the substance..silver or gold. The copper has been removed from the pennys as of 1982 or so...and replaced with a copper clad zinc slug. Scrape a new penny and see for yourself. This is the essence of counterfitting.


Madnessinmysoul..What I am able to quickly surmise by logic and reason is that our government has somewhere switched from the God of just balances and scales...just weights and measures to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances...to the counterfitter..the fraud...the phoney.

This was done without ever revealing this to the general public. That they had switched gods.

Do you know the name of the god of fraud...counterfitting? The god of lies?
Remember the claim of people of logic and reason...our founders were diests?? Or were they??

Mind you now ....it is obvious that they still believe in a god today. But it it obvious to people who can think and follow this demonstration what actually is the name of this god.

Follow the logic and reason here..Madnessinmysoul.
You can go to any coin shop and ask them to lay out the gold and silver coins in the logical decending order to see it demonstrated to you ..then line up the copper nickle system into its unlogical order for you and you can see it in all its nakedness. The copper nickle system is made so as to appear logical and reasonable to people not educated in just weights and balances,scales and measures. In otherwords people who know very little Bible or Biblical History. But it is not logical and reasonable once you know...the king here is naked..the king has no clothes. The counterfit king. The phoney. The fraud.

By the very system of coinage and notes not redeemable anymore our government now has the ability to steal from us unlimited by fraudulent issue of unjust measures, weights, balances, and scales.
The very abomination which makes the follow up abominations possible in a nation..and we are going down that trail rapidly.

Think this through carefully for there are people on this thread who can clearly follow this logic and reason and still know the biblical instructions for this very thing...and why it was necessary for things to be this way.

They know the name of the Counterfitter...by name.
THey now know the name of the god of the US Government...and when the switch to the counterfitter took place.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


you can still have a god, just not through the expenditure of tax dollars
removing "in god we trust" from currency won't affect your religion, will it?
or will removing god from the pledge suddenly cause you to not be allowed religion?



Madnessinmysoul,

My experience with athiests is that most of them believe in the system of logic and reason...rationale. A certain amount of common sense born out through logic.

Your statement above is very intresting and telling. However what I am going to point out is very easy to see but not thought out very well or often even by my Christian bretheren.

I have often said that there is much ignorance about everything out here including religion/Christianity by my Christian bretheren.

Concerning money which you quoted above...follow the logic and reason here. Bear with me through this.

By virtue of the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 the founders of this country put into effect a system of Coinage..in gold, silver, and copper.

What is very intresting about this coinage act when you read it through and know what it portends is that it establishes a system of weights and measures in these metals. In otherwords the money is the metal ...of a specific weight and fineness. The coin is only intended to standardize the measure of these metals.

IF you look at our coinage before the copper nickele fiasco we have today...you will notice that if you line up the coinage by size..

A silver dollar is twice the weight and the same fineness in silver as a 50 cent piece. The 50 cent piece twice the weight and the same fineness of the quarter. The dime is one tenth the size and weight of the doller in silver same fineness of the metal. There was at one time a coin in circulation called a Half Dime. One twentieth the weight and in the same fineness of the dollar of silver. When they went to nickles they even tried to blend in a five cent weight of silver into the nickles as this was the most easily lost coin..the half dime due to its small size.

What we have here is a system of linear measures just like measuring spoons or cups in our kitchens...there was a logic a rationale to them if you look at thier order and line them up.

The Gold and copper requirements for coinage follow the same pattern..just weights , balances , scales and measures. A logic , a reason , a rationale.

This logic and reason..this rationale corresponds to the Biblical requirement of a system of just weights and measures. A just system of scales and balances. Our Founders understood this quite clearly. What was that about our Founders not believing in God?? Or being diests?? I think they understood precisely what the biblical requirements were in coinage and balances and scales/measures.
I now know the name of the God of the Founders...by His very Name.
By the very example...the very substance they honored in the coinage Act of April 2, 1792, A biblical system of just weights and measures..just balances and just scales. You will find this instruction in the Olde Testament in many places.

To not transact buisness between men in this manner Biblically is called abomination...sometimes whoredom...or the selling of souls. Basically dishonesty...fraud...which is abomination.

When paper notes came about ..there was an attempt to keep this sensable by putting on the notes the phrase " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand." Meaning you could take the notes to a bank and get the coinage if prefered for the notes. If you ever see olde notes mostly at coinage shops you can see this phrase on them down at the bottom. I have in my collection several of these olde notes as well as a couple of olde half dimes.

However ..contrast this with todays coinage since we now have people in charge of our coinage with high degrees and scholarship/letters in logic and reason.

Today we have a copper nickle system in which we have still in circulation a Susan B, Anthony doller which is two thirds the size of the 50 cent piece yet claims on its surface to be twice the value. This is human logic and reason to the max. You have to go to school to get this dumb so as to foist this off on a gullible public. It doesnt make good nonsense. This is out and out fraud. Yet our leaders of logic and reason have been foisting this off on us for over 40 years now since the disappearence of silver coinage...even earlier in gold coinage and also the loss of the term " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand" at the bottom of the notes.

What we have here in the copper nickle coinage system is a system of unjust weights and measures..unjust scales and balences. A fraud. A dishonesty. Yet our government is insistent on keeping the phrase "In God We Trust" on the coinage. The phrase " Will pay to the Bearer on Demand" has been removed from the paper notes so there is no priority to deliver the substance..silver or gold. The copper has been removed from the pennys as of 1982 or so...and replaced with a copper clad zinc slug. Scrape a new penny and see for yourself. This is the essence of counterfitting.


Madnessinmysoul..What I am able to quickly surmise by logic and reason is that our government has somewhere switched from the God of just balances and scales...just weights and measures to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances...to the counterfitter..the fraud...the phoney.

This was done without ever revealing this to the general public. That they had switched gods.

Do you know the name of the god of fraud...counterfitting? The god of lies?
Remember the claim of people of logic and reason...our founders were diests?? Or were they??

Mind you now ....it is obvious that they still believe in a god today. But it it obvious to people who can think and follow this demonstration what actually is the name of this god.

Follow the logic and reason here..Madnessinmysoul.
You can go to any coin shop and ask them to lay out the gold and silver coins in the logical decending order to see it demonstrated to you ..then line up the copper nickle system into its unlogical order for you and you can see it in all its nakedness. The copper nickle system is made so as to appear logical and reasonable to people not educated in just weights and balances,scales and measures. In otherwords people who know very little Bible or Biblical History. But it is not logical and reasonable once you know...the king here is naked..the king has no clothes. The counterfit king. The phoney. The fraud.

By the very system of coinage and notes not redeemable anymore our government now has the ability to steal from us unlimited by fraudulent issue of unjust measures, weights, balances, and scales.
The very abomination which makes the follow up abominations possible in a nation..and we are going down that trail rapidly.

Think this through carefully for there are people on this thread who can clearly follow this logic and reason and still know the biblical instructions for this very thing...and why it was necessary for things to be this way.

They know the name of the Counterfitter...by name.
THey now know the name of the god of the US Government...and when the switch to the counterfitter took place.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


you can still have a god, just not through the expenditure of tax dollars
removing "in god we trust" from currency won't affect your religion, will it?
or will removing god from the pledge suddenly cause you to not be allowed religion?



Madnessinmysoul,

My experience with athiests is that most of them believe in the system of logic and reason...rationale. A certain amount of common sense born out through logic.

Your statement above is very intresting and telling. However what I am going to point out is very easy to see but not thought out very well or often even by my Christian bretheren.

I have often said that there is much ignorance about everything out here including religion/Christianity by my Christian bretheren.

Concerning money which you quoted above...follow the logic and reason here. Bear with me through this.

By virtue of the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 the founders of this country put into effect a system of Coinage..in gold, silver, and copper.

What is very intresting about this coinage act when you read it through and know what it portends is that it establishes a system of weights and measures in these metals. In otherwords the money is the metal ...of a specific weight and fineness. The coin is only intended to standardize the measure of these metals.

IF you look at our coinage before the copper nickele fiasco we have today...you will notice that if you line up the coinage by size..

A silver dollar is twice the weight and the same fineness in silver as a 50 cent piece. The 50 cent piece twice the weight and the same fineness of the quarter. The dime is one tenth the size and weight of the doller in silver same fineness of the metal. There was at one time a coin in circulation called a Half Dime. One twentieth the weight and in the same fineness of the dollar of silver. When they went to nickles they even tried to blend in a five cent weight of silver into the nickles as this was the most easily lost coin..the half dime due to its small size.

What we have here is a system of linear measures just like measuring spoons or cups in our kitchens...there was a logic a rationale to them if you look at thier order and line them up.

The Gold and copper requirements for coinage follow the same pattern..just weights , balances , scales and measures. A logic , a reason , a rationale.

This logic and reason..this rationale corresponds to the Biblical requirement of a system of just weights and measures. A just system of scales and balances. Our Founders understood this quite clearly. What was that about our Founders not believing in God?? Or being diests?? I think they understood precisely what the biblical requirements were in coinage and balances and scales/measures.
I now know the name of the God of the Founders...by His very Name.
By the very example...the very substance they honored in the coinage Act of April 2, 1792, A biblical system of just weights and measures..just balances and just scales. You will find this instruction in the Olde Testament in many places.

To not transact buisness between men in this manner Biblically is called abomination...sometimes whoredom...or the selling of souls. Basically dishonesty...fraud...which is abomination.

When paper notes came about ..there was an attempt to keep this sensable by putting on the notes the phrase " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand." Meaning you could take the notes to a bank and get the coinage if prefered for the notes. If you ever see olde notes mostly at coinage shops you can see this phrase on them down at the bottom. I have in my collection several of these olde notes as well as a couple of olde half dimes.

However ..contrast this with todays coinage since we now have people in charge of our coinage with high degrees and scholarship/letters in logic and reason.

Today we have a copper nickle system in which we have still in circulation a Susan B, Anthony doller which is two thirds the size of the 50 cent piece yet claims on its surface to be twice the value. This is human logic and reason to the max. You have to go to school to get this dumb so as to foist this off on a gullible public. It doesnt make good nonsense. This is out and out fraud. Yet our leaders of logic and reason have been foisting this off on us for over 40 years now since the disappearence of silver coinage...even earlier in gold coinage and also the loss of the term " Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand" at the bottom of the notes.

What we have here in the copper nickle coinage system is a system of unjust weights and measures..unjust scales and balences. A fraud. A dishonesty. Yet our government is insistent on keeping the phrase "In God We Trust" on the coinage. The phrase " Will pay to the Bearer on Demand" has been removed from the paper notes so there is no priority to deliver the substance..silver or gold. The copper has been removed from the pennys as of 1982 or so...and replaced with a copper clad zinc slug. Scrape a new penny and see for yourself. This is the essence of counterfitting.


Madnessinmysoul..What I am able to quickly surmise by logic and reason is that our government has somewhere switched from the God of just balances and scales...just weights and measures to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances...to the counterfitter..the fraud...the phoney.

This was done without ever revealing this to the general public. That they had switched gods.

Do you know the name of the god of fraud...counterfitting? The god of lies?
Remember the claim of people of logic and reason...our founders were diests?? Or were they??

Mind you now ....it is obvious that they still believe in a god today. But it it obvious to people who can think and follow this demonstration what actually is the name of this god.

Follow the logic and reason here..Madnessinmysoul.
You can go to any coin shop and ask them to lay out the gold and silver coins in the logical decending order to see it demonstrated to you ..then line up the copper nickle system into its unlogical order for you and you can see it in all its nakedness. The copper nickle system is made so as to appear logical and reasonable to people not educated in just weights and balances,scales and measures. In otherwords people who know very little Bible or Biblical History. But it is not logical and reasonable once you know...the king here is naked..the king has no clothes. The counterfit king. The phoney. The fraud.

By the very system of coinage and notes not redeemable anymore our government now has the ability to steal from us unlimited by fraudulent issue of unjust measures, weights, balances, and scales.
The very abomination which makes the follow up abominations possible in a nation..and we are going down that trail rapidly.

Think this through carefully for there are people on this thread who can clearly follow this logic and reason and still know the biblical instructions for this very thing...and why it was necessary for things to be this way.

They know the name of the Counterfitter...by name.
THey now know the name of the god of the US Government...and when the switch to the counterfitter took place.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

freedom FROM religion
that is a right that i have
yet there is god on my money
god in my pledge
why do i have to acknowledge "1 nation under god" to pledge my allegiance to a country i love?


Well, technically, god is just a word. It doesn't belong to any certain religion, it's just a word. There are many religions with many gods. That's why our founding father's also wrote in the preamble:



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.


THEIR0 creator. Not a creator, or the creator...THEIR (meanings, the people) creator. Each individual's independent creator and/or religion is safeguarded by this. What or whomever we believe in (or don't believe in) is our right in this country.

So when you see "In God We Trust" on your money, or say "Under God" in the pledge, remember... it's just a word. And each person who says God has a completely different aspect and thought to what that god is and does. Even Christians views on God are completely different from each other.



not really, our beliefs are only opposite in theology
we share similar morality
hell, i'll even acknowledge that some of the stuff in the bible is worthwhile either philosophically or morally


That's a good thing, since the bible was originally intended for teaching, not worshipping.




the only difference between you as a christian and me as an atheist is that i exclude 1 more god from my beliefs


And don't you wish that didn't make a difference? Unfortunately, people's dogma and incoherent thought processes get in the way of unifying Humanity. But most Christians I know aren't like that. They respect other people's beliefs, and will even have fun debates w/ you. Although, most of the Christians I know went to school for it...so they knew the bible more than the average reader, and so knew it's faults and strong points. So that view is kind of biased.

But anyway, I'm an atheist. And having the word GOD in our country doesn't concern me. What concerns me is how people think they can dictate just who that god is, and make everyone adhere to the same one (which isn't possible. No two ideas of any gods, including Abraham's god, are alike.), or that they must adhere to one at all. But the word God doesn't bother me.

Hope that changes things a bit from a different Atheists point of view.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 02:01 PM
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rocknroll

You have a victim complex, and I hope you get help soon.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Providence

I’ve known too many people who don’t believe in a personal afterlife that live far more purposeful lives than some theists, and some of the most meaningful things in my life have been inarguably finite.


Very fair. My opinion remains that the existence of a creator God adds a depth to those experiences beyond what they can hold on their own. But I certainly see your point.


Keep in mind I’m a theist myself, but I don’t see any reason to believe that a God or an infinite existence (which I’m not even sure I desire) is all that gives my life purpose.


Now don’t push what I’m saying entirely out of context. I’m not saying that the existence of God will help my ham and cheese taste better today…I’m saying that life as a whole seems to hold a bit more meaning because I believe that I was intentionally created, versus being a momentary stain on the windshield of a directionless universe.


Plus, even if there is no God, why does that mean that there is no afterlife?


Fair.


You are basically saying that, if there is no God, the truth isn’t worth knowing.

Yep. That’s a pretty fair assessment of my world view. If there’s no God, then I can certainly be in awe of the natural world…but it’s like looking at the pictures they stick in frames that are for sale at the drug store…just kind of…I don’t know…hollow.


You are perfectly free to believe that, but I don’t see how that is any less dismal than having a finite existence.


The thing is that I really believe that there’s a God…way down in my bones I do. Will I be completely unhinged if I wake up in a Godless afterlife when I die? Yes. I will be inconsolable. I guess we all cast our lot somewhere.


Plus, you are assuming that there are only two possibilities: an extremely specific type of God exists (the Christian one?), or no deities exist at all.


If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t be a Christian.


Pascal’s wager is as flawed today as it was the day he penned it.


We’ll have to agree to disagree on that.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
I now know the name of the God of the Founders...by His very Name.
By the very example...the very substance they honored in the coinage Act of April 2, 1792, A biblical system of just weights and measures..just balances and just scales. You will find this instruction in the Olde Testament in many places.



so it HAS to be biblical?
it couldn't just be simple logic?




Madnessinmysoul..What I am able to quickly surmise by logic and reason is that our government has somewhere switched from the God of just balances and scales...just weights and measures to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances...to the counterfitter..the fraud...the phoney.


okay, so now that your little rant against paper money through a skewed biblical view is over
what's your point?



Do you know the name of the god of fraud...counterfitting? The god of lies?
Remember the claim of people of logic and reason...our founders were diests?? Or were they??


no, they were
not all of them, of course
but many
presidents 1-6 were

ok, honestly, there is no logic and reason in your post
just a bunch of postulating and supposing
no evidence
similarity between our original system of weights and measures and some biblical one doesn't mean we were founded christian
the treaty of tripoli says we were in no way founded on the christian religion
treaties stand as international law

and X, the whole "it only applies to federal government" argument is ridiculous
federalism works like this: every state falls in line with national regulation (ie freedom of and from religion)
then they make up their own little regulations

edit: arcane, don't bring the declaration of independance up, it's not a governing document...

[edit on 2/8/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

so it HAS to be biblical?
it couldn't just be simple logic?


Biblical and logic are two different things?? Your losing me here!!





okay, so now that your little rant against paper money through a skewed biblical view is over
what's your point?


Your doing it again!!
lol lol lol...nice deflection Madnessinmysoul..but it is expected by logic and reason. The point I am making is against the morality used here to defraud the public by means of this phoney money. The money system is merely the instrument...however the real instrument is the ignorance of the public here...through public education ...ie television education.
Remember ..one of your issues to another poster was the offense of the term "In God We Trust". If this is a system of fraud and the god on the coins has been switched from the Biblical system this should not bother you now that we are obviously on a system of unjust weights and measures. A fraudlent system. Especially if it is not the God of the Bible.




ok, honestly, there is no logic and reason in your post
just a bunch of postulating and supposing

the treaty of tripoli says we were in no way founded on the christian religion
treaties stand as international law


This is intellectually dishonest to people who can think. It is illogical and unreasonable...but it does work on people who are educated by the public system and never got over it.

International law does not superceed the religious beliefs of a people or a soverign nation. I saw you passing this off to another poster as some point of excellence and had to laugh when I finally caught it. This is however textbook logic and reason of many today. It is a placebo..just like much of todays politics.
The assumption so carefully woven by athiests about the founding fathers is that the religious beliefs of the founders is automatically the religious beliefs of the whole nation. Therefore this must play through as a mark or badge of excellence by logic and reason..not true. The religious beliefs of the founders is not the religious beliefs of the people of this country back then or today. And the Founders knew this limitation and that they had to work within it.



edit: arcane, don't bring the declaration of independance up, it's not a governing document...



THe Coinage Act of April 2, 1792 is very telling to those who know the difference. Very telling. This is precisely why it is hardly mentioned anymore. No competition allowed to todays badges of excellence, logic , and reason.

The Coinage Act of April 2,1792 is not the Declaration of Indepencence.

Give me the name of the god of unjust weights and measures, unjust balances and scales?? The god of todays coinage ..."In God We Trust"
Give me the name of the god of the United States Government.

Madnessinmysoul..give me his name??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Give me the name of the god of unjust weights and measures, unjust balances and scales?? The god of todays coinage ..."In God We Trust"
Give me the name of the god of the United States Government.


Just an unbiased third-party observation:

It's really difficult to see what your point is.

Is the god of unjust weights and measures...SATAN?
Is that...where you're going?



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Biblical and logic are two different things?? Your losing me here!!


i'm saying that simple logic doesn't stem from the bible
it stems from the mind




Your doing it again!!
lol lol lol...nice deflection Madnessinmysoul..but it is expected by logic and reason. The point I am making is against the morality used here to defraud the public by means of this phoney money.



which is completely pointless to talk about here
the title is ATHEISTS IN AMERICA


orange
if you're going to continue to talk about paper money defrauding the public, do it in another thread

i don't see how it pertains to any discrimination against atheists



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by Providence
Plus, you are assuming that there are only two possibilities: an extremely specific type of God exists (the Christian one?), or no deities exist at all.


If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t be a Christian.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't logically follow. How does being Christian necessitate that you entertain one non-Christian possibility but no others? How does being a Christian mean that you can call atheism a possibility, but not any other non-Christian point of view?

You see, your assumption is that either the Christian God exists or no deities exist at all. This is what enables you present Christianity as being a 50-50 chance. This is one of the main problems with Pascal's Wager. The possibility of Christians being right is 1/n whereas n equals all theistic possiblities. Pascal lazily presumes that n equals 2 without ever giving an explanation or an argument for that case.

For every possibility, the chances of your wager actually paying off diminish. Now, you could argue that Christianity is the only possibility, making your chances one in one, but that would render Pascal's Wager completely obsolete. So you have to entertain both a Christian option and at least one non-Christian option in order for the wager to work at all. You assume that a second option is possible, but then you need to explain what makes these two options possible, but no others.

As Pascal's own critics put it, "An Imam could argue the same way."

Other holes in Pascal's logic include:

1. The assumption that there is no benefit to being an atheist in a world in which no God exists. This is ridiculous considering the fact that an atheist in this view could enjoy all of the wordly pleasures that a Christian life would deny. Assuming that there is no afterlife, then earthy joys are all that we have, so the atheist stands to experience more pleasure than the theist does.

2. The assumption that there is no loss in being a theist in a world where no God exists. This is ridiculous, not only for the reasons already listed above, but also because of Jesus's own teachings! He said himself that his teachings would divide families and cause conflict, that his followers would have to carry a difficult burden, that some of them would be martyred, etc. But, if no Christian God exists, then all of this misery can be avoided without penalty.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 06:59 PM
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Atheist need to get over themselves, they're th biggest cry babies I know.

The thing I don't get though, is why do atheists always try to force their beliefs on me?

If i want to believe in God, let me believe in God.

The last thing I needs are fools telling me what to believe.:shk:



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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I'm sorry madness, I'm getting really off topic, but the other conversations that are going on are so interesting that I had to see them being ignored.

Anyway, as far as your original post goes, I personally see it as a phenomenon that applies to all minorities. If a member of the majority does something, people are too wary to consider that representative of the entire majority. For example, hardly anyone asks, "How do you, as a white person, feel about this issue?" Why? Because it is ridiculous to assume that any one white person is able to speak for all white people.

Minorities are treated far differently. Single members of a minority are seen as being able to speak for the rest of the members of that minority.

I don't think that hearing someone say, "how come atheists are always crying wolf" is any different then hearing someone say, "how come blacks are always playing the race card."

I don't see a conspiracy here, I just see a lamentable public attitude.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by thehumbleone
Atheist need to get over themselves, they're th biggest cry babies I know.
I hear Christians complain about how they are treated all of the time. Hell, just check out Fox news every once in awhile, you'll see tons of stories about how Christians are being shunned. And what about Muslims? I hear them complain all the time about how people are stereotyping them. And have you read the holy scriptures of Judaism?


The thing I don't get though, is why do atheists always try to force their beliefs on me?
And why are Christians trying to always force their beliefs on others?


If i want to believe in God, let me believe in God.
Amen.


The last thing I needs are fools telling me what to believe.:shk:
And how are Christians any different?

It is hypocritical to sit here and deride atheists for all of these things when theists are guilty of the exact same thing.




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