Arrogant Americans

Originally posted by jsobecky
Say what you want. You cannot avoid the fact that the world leaders are mostly a bunch of cowards who are afraid to face the true evil in our world. Bush and Blair did what they had to do, fully aware that they were going to lose the popularity contest.

um, the true evil in this world?
what about palestine
terrorism in palestine is far from evil
it may be deplorable
but it isn't merely for evil
thinking about conflicts in terms of good vs evil is a cold war vestige that needs to leave
there aren't 2 sides
the USA is fighting against it's own cold war era mistakes
not EVIL

Who else could make a stance against terrorism? Canada? France? Mexico? South America? Germany?
Who?

didn't canada, france, and germany go into afghanistan with us?

There are a lot of emotions running high in here. So many arguments come from the extremes. I am an American, but I don't want to alienate the international community. It is just not practical, and I cringe when people claim that they want to embrace isolationism.

Assume, arguendo, that the invasion was illegal. What should the United States do now? The consensus seems to be that if the US leaves now, the country will fall into chaos. That is supported by a number of studies. Should not the goal be staying so that the new government can stabilize? Is not there a moral obligation to fix the problem that we created? I agree that as soon as the country is stabilized, then the US has an obligation to leave.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Thank you for the replies thus far, its obvious from some that there are a small minority who are hell bent on making it a name calling slanging match which is a shame.

Ummm... I've kept up with this thread. The only people I see slanging names in this thread are the people that agree with you.

Originally posted by Togetic
There are a lot of emotions running high in here. So many arguments come from the extremes. I am an American, but I don't want to alienate the international community. It is just not practical, and I cringe when people claim that they want to embrace isolationism.

Assume, arguendo, that the invasion was illegal. What should the United States do now? The consensus seems to be that if the US leaves now, the country will fall into chaos. That is supported by a number of studies. Should not the goal be staying so that the new government can stabilize? Is not there a moral obligation to fix the problem that we created? I agree that as soon as the country is stabilized, then the US has an obligation to leave.

Very well thought points.

I however despise globalization... not because of what it is doing to America..

But .. what it is doing to the world. Globalization is taking essentially our way of life and throwing it down other peoples throats for the sake of progress.. in the end the country that get our call centers become more and more like us, just poor. Take India for example.. the cultural impact is great there, as it is in China, customs thrown out the window because people have call center jobs and new weird hours. Some good things come of it, women can work now... but it just goes against their way of life.

Will my grandchildren be able to fly across Europe and other parts of the world and experience a who new cultural experience, or some off sect of Americanism with McDonald's on every street corner in downtown Paris. Isolationism would keep us out of other peoples problems and allow us to focus more on our selves.

If we leave Iraq now.. that's when the extremes will happen.. possible ethnic cleansing.

I don't think we can, nor should stop the fighting until they them selves are ready to.. but we need to be there to help kill off agents like Iranians fueling it for their own good. Most insurgents Americans fight are possibly foreigners. Most sectarian violence is neighbor on neighbor (sunis used to rat out their Shia neighbors to secret police is they had a grudge resulting in who know what hell) and the fighters typically only fire at Americans if we try and stop them, or drive into the cross fire.

Originally posted by Togetic
There are a lot of emotions running high in here. So many arguments come from the extremes. I am an American, but I don't want to alienate the international community. It is just not practical, and I cringe when people claim that they want to embrace isolationism.

Assume, arguendo, that the invasion was illegal. What should the United States do now? The consensus seems to be that if the US leaves now, the country will fall into chaos. That is supported by a number of studies. Should not the goal be staying so that the new government can stabilize? Is not there a moral obligation to fix the problem that we created? I agree that as soon as the country is stabilized, then the US has an obligation to leave.

I agree with you Togetic.

I'm an American, and I can totally see the arrogance mushroom is talking about in some people here. It baffles me, but thats patriotism during a time of war for ya. This war was quite frankly retarded; we kicked their ass, made them hate us, and now we are trying to get them to do what we want them too. Its not going to work, this war is most likely unwinnable, although we sort of alreayd won it, militarily. However, we totally failed the Iraqi people, other than getting rid of Sadam. We now have to stay and clean up our mess.

We owe them that much, yet I still doubt we can pull it off. They actually have to start fining the Iraqi congress members for not showing up for sessions, because they can never get enough people to show up to have an actual session of congress.

What exactly did we gain from this war?

It seems like the Iraqi's have lost all hope in America, and I can't say I blame them. I love America, but the truth is the truth.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Very well thought points.

I however despise globalization... not because of what it is doing to America..

But .. what it is doing to the world. Globalization is taking essentially our way of life and throwing it down other peoples throats for the sake of progress.. in the end the country that get our call centers become more and more like us, just poor. Take India for example.. the cultural impact is great there, as it is in China, customs thrown out the window because people have call center jobs and new weird hours. Some good things come of it, women can work now... but it just goes against their way of life.

Is that our choice to make? Would it not be better to give them the choice whether to embrace the economic system they want? If they choose to take the business that our industries are offering, is it different from Iraq to deny them the opportunity to accept it?

Of course, I recognize that such a change does not immediately occur. However, it takes time for a perturbed system to reach its new equilibrium, and often the time right after the change can be very violent.

Our obligation is to ensure that their adaptation is a smooth one.

Will my grandchildren be able to fly across Europe and other parts of the world and experience a who new cultural experience, or some off sect of Americanism with McDonald's on every street corner in downtown Paris. Isolationism would keep us out of other peoples problems and allow us to focus more on our selves.

Is this Americanism or homogenization? The entire world, economically, socially, and politically, are connecting and changing. It is much as if you have two equally-sized enclosed rooms, each with a different temperature, connected by one door. Open the door, and after a while the temperature will become equal in the two rooms. Behavioral models tend to be analogous to these physical models, trending towards a common equilibrium across the entire system. That is what we observe today; we have to accept that and attempt to make the transition as easy and fair as possible. It is not a bad thing, it is a natural thing.

If we leave Iraq now.. that's when the extremes will happen.. possible ethnic cleansing.

I don't think we can, nor should stop the fighting until they them selves are ready to.. but we need to be there to help kill off agents like Iranians fueling it for their own good. Most insurgents Americans fight are possibly foreigners. Most sectarian violence is neighbor on neighbor (sunis used to rat out their Shia neighbors to secret police is they had a grudge resulting in who know what hell) and the fighters typically only fire at Americans if we try and stop them, or drive into the cross fire.

I agree, and I am in favor of the three-state solution. On the other hand, is it our place to impose that solution, as the Sunnis would be left without access the oil revenues? America's job needs to be to guide them into the government that they want. However, we owe it to the international community to ensure that the government that they choose will not be a destabilizing influence in the region. We have a moral obligation to ensure that Iraq comes out of this better than the started.

Globalizm is natural with such advancements in communication..

I can talk to people and debate with them from all over the world here on ATS.. It is hard to tell whos a Brit, whos an Ausie and whos an American sometimes, if not most of the time.

However I am against anything like McDonalds, WalMart, the super giants that mass produce cheap plastic wears of no value, no human creativity.. but thats my personal opinion and has nothing to do with this thread.

The three state solution in my mind is the absolute only way peace will be won in Iraq... the problem is dividing resources, such as oil, territory, sea access, the captial city, national treasures, land marks, displaced ethnicities, and the worst of it all.... a Kurdistan could bring war from Turkey.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Globalizm is natural with such advancements in communication..

I can talk to people and debate with them from all over the world here on ATS.. It is hard to tell whos a Brit, whos an Ausie and whos an American sometimes, if not most of the time.

However I am against anything like McDonalds, WalMart, the super giants that mass produce cheap plastic wears of no value, no human creativity.. but thats my personal opinion and has nothing to do with this thread.

In some respects I agree with you. However, I don't see a problem with the necessities of life being cheap. Q-tips, toothbrushes, floss, razors, and all of those little things that we use every day and then toss away, those should be made cheaply so that people can have access to them. Part of the reason they are so cheap is that people want to have those creature comforts. I don't see, barring exploitation, any problem with that.

Other things like tools, lumber, washing machines, etc. should probably be expensive because they require more creativity to be practical. And I agree that there is an important place for art in any society.

The three state solution in my mind is the absolute only way peace will be won in Iraq... the problem is dividing resources, such as oil, territory, sea access, the captial city, national treasures, land marks, displaced ethnicities, and the worst of it all.... a Kurdistan could bring war from Turkey.

I know what you mean. Of course, is it better to be split apart like that, or held together by fear like they were under Saddam?

The USA is a great country, but we are failed by the leadership of a rich kid who was never accountable! I hate to see the rich human life and treasury looted for an ill conceived plan to win the peace!

I only hope we can survive another 2 years to recover from this horrible situation, anybody who defends Bush is a kool aid drinking neocon globalist.

I hope Ron Paul can make an impact in 2008!

Ok, I agree Togetic.. perhaps I was over generalizing. But I still HATE walmart. Iv boycotted it for 3 years now.. only going in when I absolutly have to or if I need to use my card at Sams Club for my mom (she refuses to pay to go into a store)

I do think however, clothes, art works of all kinds, decor.. they should be hand made... how sad is it that someone can make an assembly line of painters slopping on cheap acrylics, then selling thousands of them for 20 bucks.. the renasoinse masters would roll in their graves if you ask me. I buy only directly from the painter himself with a signiture. More expensive.. but at least I can flip it over and show that only 10 of these exist in the world.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

god you make me sick.

Your murdering innocent women and childeren for money?

Why do we need ANY OTHER REASON TO THROW UP BECAUSE OF THAT?

[edit on 3-2-2007 by mrwupy]

Oh come off your high horse Mr. auzzie. How many aborginals did your people slaughter to secure that little piece of land down under? Im not saying the US didnt so the same, but the fact remains that we have common roots and have ancestors that have done some very nasty things to get what they want.

Anyway, I would be a little more sympathetic to the euro/aussie opinion if it wasnt always reduced to a name calling contest, etc. I also didnt see any european nations losing thousands of its people due to terrorism, which many in the euro/aussie clan have falsely perpetuated was caused by the US government to belittle our justification for the war. The fact is, it was muslim radicals who killed our countrymen, so our response has been to restructure in the middle east to prevent another attack. Do we really need further justification? no, we dont. If you want to blame someone for the death and destruction, you better be looking to the muslim extremists that started this war.

Yeah it's almost like goign into Mexico and taking out all the cartels but leaving the plants behind ... Guess what ... There are many people over there that know how to grow ... and process and sooner or later the people that know these things will take control and start thier own ... Cartels ... and Drug smuggling rings ... Cept ... NOW it will be a completely different people and we will have to start all over ... Why ? Because this is in thier heritage ... and they know where alot of thier monies come from ... Only thing we could possibly do ... Is have everyone here in America ... Not do those things they are producing ilegally Good luck in doing that .

I am not Aussie.
and simply because I am disgusted at America's actions, doesnt mean I condone other methods of slaughter, but I appreciate the 10yr mentality applied there!

MUSLIM EXTREMISTS DID NOT START THIS WAR.
This is where the problem lies with you.
AMERICA INVADED IRAQ.
Do you get this, does that compute ?

Muslims did not force you to invade IRAQ For petes SAKE.

YOU CREATED THIS MESS, you have no foot to stand on when blaming everyone else for your countries collosal F'UP

Its like none of you can think for yourself anymore.

Jesus age mary.... America Invaded Iraq. Get that through your head.
You invaded on FALSE EVIDENCE and created this pandoras box which the entire region has decided to jump on.

This is an ILLEGIAL war.. your leaders deserve to be shot for this.
When are you going to wake up and see the reality instead of telling everyone, this that and the other, becuase they are not prepared to follow your BLIND PATRIOTIC ways.

As soon as your president actually releases EVIDENCE of muslim extremists being involved in 911 I might take note of it.
but when the OFFICIAL REPORT leaves out so many CRUCIAL aspects of sept 11, when some of the 'terrorists' turn up alive, and when your own FBI state ' NOT ONE PIECE OF EVIDENCE EXISTS PROVING ALQAEDA '
I tend to think maybe georgie and co had something to gain by ALLOWING THOSE ATTACKS.

and looky looky, Chenney has made $80,000,000 of this war.

Does this not register or something with you? can you not see the REALITY when it is staring you in the face?

Well everyone else can, and every day that an America still spreads its BS about ' Iraq was the haven of terrorists, Saddam harboured Alqeada, Ivading Iraq was legal ' it does nothing but prove how ignorant and narrow minded your country has become.




I wish your 'type' would go to iraq and fight, if you believe so whole heartidly in this endeveour.

bring your loyal soliders home, because even though they are 1000's of miles away, atleast they can see the truth behind your countries leaders.

[edit on 6-2-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
YOU CREATED THIS MESS, you have no foot to stand on when blaming everyone else for your countries collosal F'UP

We created this mess? How? America was oppressing, torturing, raping, abusing people in Iraq?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Its like none of you can think for yourself anymore.

Wait... You mean I should think like you? I thought I was supposed to think for myself... I'm confused.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Jesus age mary.... America Invaded Iraq. Get that through your head.
You invaded on FALSE EVIDENCE...

You make it sound as though we were the only country that thought he had WMD's... Please you damn well he had them in the past. It has been proven.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
This is an ILLEGIAL war.. your leaders deserve to be shot for this.

I think we have proven it is not an illegal war... You don't have to agree with it. But that does not make it illegal. You have to be joking... Shoot our leaders? You just sound like a nut job saying something like that.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop I tend to think maybe georgie and co had something to gain by ALLOWING THOSE ATTACKS.

You can think whatever you want... As wacked out as it may sound

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
and looky looky, Chenney has made $80,000,000 of this war.

EVERYONE makes money during a war! It's always been that way! Who cares? Oh wait... "You" do...

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Does this not register or something with you? can you not see the REALITY when it is staring you in the face?

Stop talking about reality... Seriously...

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Well everyone else can, and every day that an America still spreads its BS about ' Iraq was the haven of terrorists, Saddam harboured Alqeada, Ivading Iraq was legal ' it does nothing but prove how ignorant and narrow minded your country has become.

No comment... Just more ignorant blind hatred of America garbage...

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I wish your 'type' would go to iraq and fight, if you believe so whole heartidly in this endeveour.

My 'type' is to old to fight... I do help out though working with MSC supplying the troops.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
bring your loyal soliders home, because even though they are 1000's of miles away, atleast they can see the truth behind your countries leaders.

Ummmmmmm... Are you saying the troops agree with you? That's a bit of stretch... I am sure there are some malcontents in the service. But... Every soldier I "personally" know fighting in Iraq believes they are doing the right thing. Even if they hate being there doing what they are doing. Why don't you go fight against America if you are so in tune with the "truth?' What you to scared or something? Quit bashing everything American with words and get off your keyboard and fight!

One of many Iraqi citizens who disagree with "YOU!"

No Saddam was a ruthless leader.
But he had CONTROL of Iraq. And the whole ' ruthless leader ' card doesnt work because every country has a ruthless leader.
And if saddam was such a problem as a leader, or with wmd's, why did we wait so long AFTER gw1 to hit him?

You invaded and occupied and CREATED THIS MESS THAT IS HAPPENING.
before you were there, were carbombs , beheadings and so forth daily occurances?
No, so there fore the Mess in Iraq right now is because america invaded, stop blaming every other aspect for your countries mistake.

Think for yourselves,
but you just proved my point
Just because AMERICA says this war is LEGAL, doesnt mean it is LEGAL on the world stage.
this war, by international agreements, is ILLEGIAL. your congress has no say over international LAW, and when you spout garbage about this war being legal because congress says so, it just shows how badly you fail to think for YOURSELF!

YOUR COUNTRY Was the force behind invading Iraq.
Australia followed you because its leader simply wanted a kodak moment we had no evidence at all against Iraq, we simply took all your bs, and fed it back to our people.
Blairs government lied about it as much as you did,
and being australia, Britan and USA are the 3 biggest forces in Iraq, its pretty clear the people devoted to this war WERE LYING.

Had America not pushed for this war, all these 'other' countries you speak of would not of invaded .without AMERICA in the driving Seat. they only FOLLOWED you for trade incentives and economic BENEFITS.


Everyone does make money,
but when its your VICE PRESIDENT, who had a MAJOR SAY in the aggresion of WAR it becomes very different.

He has made $80,000,000 PERSONALLY from this endeveour, while your troops are dying for a helpless cuase he is rolling in Cash.
This should make any moral man MISERABLE and DISGUSTED in his leaders.. NOT DEFENDING THEM!

HANG THE MAN WHO MAKES MONEY< BY SENDING HIS TROOPS TO WAR!

There's a large number of troops who do not believe they should be there, or gone in.
Anyone who beleives Iraq deserved to be invaded should be the ones fighting, plain and simple.

The world will never forget this haneous crime AMERICA inflicted on Iraq.
And in the future, when this is all dead and buried.. it will be a crime, and a sin to state you followed them in there actions against Iraq.

Just like it is a crime to express interest in Nazism.

This thread has degenerated into little more than a series of rants, so its being moved to slug-fest.

Agit8dchop you are at the same level with Saddam in my book.

Saddam had control... sure......... guess that makes raping women in front of their husbands, ruthless tortures every day, secret prisions.

But its ok if they have control. How old are you man? I think your issues go well beyond this war, you apparently have some built up hostility for America on more then one level.

Where is the proof that our government went to war for personal financial gain? None..... No im sure there is some.. most likely would post some alex jones bs.

But.. just let it be known to the world that Agit8dchop supports torture! he also supports rape! oh and I hear you like filing mass graves with Kurds from nerve agents. *claps for Agit8dchop* rule with an Iron fist so long as the media doesn't report it right? Every leader in the world is like this right? Stay in school buddy, and prehaps maybe even visit a real dictatorship.. I know it is so hard down there in Australia.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Agit8dchop you are at the same level with Saddam in my book.
Saddam had control... sure......... guess that makes raping women in front of their husbands, ruthless tortures every day, secret prisions.
But its ok if they have control. How old are you man? I think your issues go well beyond this war, you apparently have some built up hostility for America on more then one level.
Where is the proof that our government went to war for personal financial gain? None..... No im sure there is some.. most likely would post some alex jones bs.
But.. just let it be known to the world that Agit8dchop supports torture! he also supports rape! oh and I hear you like filing mass graves with Kurds from nerve agents. *claps for Agit8dchop* rule with an Iron fist so long as the media doesn't report it right? Every leader in the world is like this right? Stay in school buddy, and prehaps maybe even visit a real dictatorship.. I know it is so hard down there in Australia.

I am 23yrs old FYI
And Proof?
Dick Cheney, you know. The VP
has made.. PERSONALLY, $80,000,000 from this war.
Is that enough of a 'financial gain' for your books?
By all means please refer:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But thanks for acting like a child.
I never said I support rape, or torture..
But I find it strange that Iraqi's say life was BETTER under Saddam, than how it is now.
Because with saddam you knew the limit, you know what you couldnt do, and how to stay alive.
TODAYS iraq, you can do everything right, but be murdered simply for shopping at a market.


your right, I do have hostility against this government

let me think , why..

well... there's sept11, and how they milked it to the most they could.
Theres Iraq, and all the flawed intel, and lies they told
then theres the level of slaughter coming out of Iraq, being the War wasnt nessecary, and was illegial.
Then there's Bush on TV, constantly bombarding you with falsehoods, and smirking to the camera while saying '' we are succeeding in destroying terrorism '' when the reality is he is killing women, and childeren and making more terrorists in Iraq than Alqeda could dream of.
but what $h!+s me the most,

are people liek you , whom have all the potential to be moral, and decent human beings... still defending this government, this war.. and criticising anyone who is against the slaughter of innocent people, for greed.

Where is the real evil here?


[edit on 6-2-2007 by Agit8dChop]

[edit on 6-2-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Rockpuck Have you ever heard the phrase two wrongs dont make a right. The points you make about what Saddam did is quite known and the country could be classed as stable during his period of reign. But with that in mind is it not imperative that if we want to put things right as that would be the moral imperative then the opposit has happened. To justify what is happening now in Iraq with what Saddam did is morally and ethically wrong.

The point of this thread was that the American Goverment were telling others to keep their noses out of Iraq, America has lost the moral high ground and just as there are those who say what the Goverment did was legal its just as legal if any other nation to tell its people to fight against the Americans and their allies.

If one decide's they have the right to exercise their power others can exercise their rights to resist that power. This happens in all conflicts irrespective of who is involved. As an example if Mexico invaded the US I would expect Americans to resist and fight that invasion that is the norm when your country is invaded.

What goes for one goes for the other, one cannot have a double standard on these matters. To blindly support and follow what a Goverment tells you is to surrender your free will and voice as seen in many conflicts in recent history. Even at an individual level we all have to decide what is and is not morally acceptable and what is being done in our name.

And with regard to your comments re my feelings towards America/ns the actions of one affect the whole, there is a nkock on effect to all of this.

Agit8dchop MANY iraqis wish Saddam was back .. that is true.

Of course... that would be Sunnis. Gee... cant think why that is..

I see only your personal opinions relating to Chenys financial gain. And whether or not he gains money is not my business honestly. All politicians are corrupt and I would gather that Dems make money as well. Kerry I am is making big bucks off of all the ketchup the soldiers in Iraq are eating!

Two wrongs don't make a right mushroom, very true. I prefer people fighting against a dictatorship of such a level Saddam was. Nothing you can show me will persuade me other wise.