SO, very eloquent.

Folks, the very fact that we are able to have this conversation/arguement speaks volumns. Of course, the fact that we are having this discussion at all speaks volumns as well. I have as little trust of the government as any of you, but I have my doubts as to whether or not they are quite as insidious as some would have us believe.

If we are indeed headed down the road to a police state, which I don't believe, than it is all the more imperitive that we excersize our power as voters and citizens to foment change. Apathy is the true enemy here, not the gov't. The gov't will do what we let it do. If we don't care enough to keep our eyes and ears open to what they are doing, then, well, we will get just what we deserve. Voting, protesting, signing petitions, etc... are all forms of rebellion that we can use to foment change in our political enviroment. At the risk of incurring wrath, I think we all need to quit whining about it and start doing what we can to change it. The litterbox won't change itself, you know.

We all, I am sure, remember saying the Pledge of Alliegence when we were in school (those of us who live in the US). Part of that Pledge, unstated perhaps, but still there; was to protect the part that mentions liberty and justice for all. We can not do this if we apathetically stay at home watching TV. Become aware, but most of all act upon that awareness. You can only do what you can do, but if 300 million of us decide to do what we can...they (whoever they is...) have no chance.

Seagull, good post. IF we really want to protect ourselves from the government we need to educate ourselves on separating the BS from the real issues. It's a vicious cycle and if we allow it to keep happening, it's going to keep happening because WE play into it on both sides of the spectrum. It happened in the 90's w/the Repubs taking over and now it's going on with the Dems. After they regain control it will be another BS issue to take away from the real issues for the Repubs to gain control. It's going to be a neverending cycle as long as we play into it. To keep blaming each President for everything is going to accomplish NOTHING except of course for the REAL issues being swept under the rug.

Do you all honestly think the Dems give a rats arse about what's going on in the NSA? Nope. They know your civil liberties aren't being diminished. They know no law is being broken. They know it has been done before. These leaks are intentional. And, that's 'waking up' to the reality of this situation, in my book. And to think that the U.S. is going to a dictatorship? It's going to take alot more than Pres Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld for that to ever happen. No way would that happen and to suggest that it is happening is again just 'rhetoric'.

I personally would like to see ATS become less partisan myself on issues such as these. It's obvious as soon as you pull up the site and it says "U.S. Police State Has Begun" or whatever it says that you are probably unintentionally feeding this bias. How has a 'Police State' begun? I see no evidence that such a thing exists. And, i'm not at all attempting to flame ATS as I realize this is a conspiracy site, but if we want to make a change we have to start somewhere and why not start with ourselves?

Originally posted by Springer
DYepes I never once insinuated, intimated or otherwise suggested I think volence in any form is the answer. Read my post and the answer I DO think is correct is very clearly stated.

Springer...

Of course you didn’t, Springer. You can’t suggest violence as a solution because then you would be spied on, harassed at airports, fail background checks, and wind up on a few lists.

Or they could just kill you.

To those who laugh, just go look at some of the violence done to Americans by the government sworn to protect them, both pre and post 9-11.


Vicky Weaver had her liberties considerably trampled on when she was shot in the face by FBI sniper Lon Horiuchi for being armed with her baby.

You want to give that same FBI and their ATF/CIA/NSA/DEA buddies more power over us?

Oh, and how about that time the feds laid siege to, pumped toxic gas into, and burned up that church full of women and children rather than talking to its pastor on one of the DAILY MORNING RUNS HE TOOK.

Lon Horiuchi was even there, sniping away again.

Yeah, that one was a hoot, huh? A regular riot. It is just too bad they didn't have patriot act back then or they could have just rounded up the entire congregation outside the church and shipped them overseas to be interrogated for the next 20 years instead of having to try and serve that pesky warrant like they did, right?

How many others have we lost so far in the War on Liberty? I cant count them all, it is daunting and heart-wrenching task.

Carl Drega comes to mind. Google him. The names of some other early (Clinton-era) victims of the War on Liberty are Dr. Dietrich Stroemer, Gary, Steve and Joanne Tucker, Anna and Eli Zhadanov, Laura Kriho, Bill Span, Rodger Sless, Jim Bell, the list goes on and on. Thousands of lives ruined and taken, on and on and on.

But of course, it would not be proper to shoot the SOBs yet.

Now dont get me wrong here; anyone who has experienced the horrors of combat, the utter hopelessness and desolation of war, the years of tears in the aftermath, will tell you they don’t wish that on our nation.

But is it possible that although you do not war your enemy will bring it to your doorstep? They brought it to the doorstep of the Weavers, to the doorstep of the Branch Davidians, to the doorstep of Carl Drega and to thousands of other doorsteps youdont hear about on the news, because weather forecasts, traffic reports and a bunch of Mexicans waving Mexican flags is more important...err...entertaining.


To those of you can’t see the war on your doorstep, go stand in front of Vicky Weaver's grave and tell her that she was not a victim, that her liberties were intact the whole damn time. Better yet, tell her husband. Ask him how his son's liberties are going while you are it. Then ask him how much power he thinks the government should have.


[edit on 17-5-2006 by cavscout]

When Pandora opened the box, every evil and ill in the world came pouring out. the only thing that remained in the box was hope.

Thats all I have left is hope and optimism, that the light at the end of the tunnel is comming closer.

I have hope that America's boiling point will be reached, and it will blow up in the face of the powers that be. I have hope that the last straw will be reached, and a huge backlash against these massive intrusions into our dear liberties will be violently torn down.

America has endured many struggles and dark times that we suffered from and rose above. Like McCarthyism, Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement, segregation, the Kennedy Assasination, the depression, Watergate, ect ect ect ect. We will continue to have our dark times.

But i retain hope that things shall right themselves again, that we can breathe a pleasant sigh of relief soon. I have faith that we are coming to a major head in national affairs, and there will be a massive backlash against the powers that be.

Im over here in England. it pains me that I am not back home to take more direct action by informing other Americans of whats happening. All I can do for now is write my senator constantly everytime something like these infringements into our civil rights occur. In a few years I shall be moving back home. But for now, family circumstances keep me here.

If we lose hope and accept the NWO as inevitable, than we may as well give up right now. You know all that stuff about positive thinking followed by positive action? There might be something to it.

Never give up hope, because its all that pandora left us after taking everything else away.

Aelita if I heard discussions like this one outside of this forum, say in the cafes, resturants, coffee shops, etc. I would be more concerned. I eat every single meal out, so I'm in with the public a lot and I can't help but notice what people are talking about, especially if they begin to get passionate with their speech. I just don't hear conversations concerning America becoming a dictatorship, or about our loss of freedoms and such and I do listen for such things. Perhaps the participants on ATS represent the pointy end of the spear or something and others will soon be talking about these things. Right now; however, they are not talking about such things (at least in public places), so I conclude we may be a bit overly concerned here on ATS. Granted, I do live in Midland, Texas, the home town of President & Laura Bush and the people hereabouts may tend to be more supportive & forgiving than most others, but they don't blindly follow anyone or anything and if they were really concerned then they would be talking.

Incidentally, one of my sons is located in Orlando, Florida--he teaches physics & math at a college there--and I routinely query him about the types of conversations he hears or takes part in. He has yet to say anything about the things we are discussing here. On the humorous side though, he did say he visited ATS the other day because some of his students were going on about the plentiful, nearly free energy available from plain water they had heard about on ATS. After debunking the claims being made he called to tell me about it. When I told him that was one of your favorite subjects as well, he got a good laugh out of it.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Astronomer70]

Originally posted by Astronomer70
Aelita if I heard discussions like this one outside of this forum, say in the cafes, resturants, coffee shops, etc. I would be more concerned. I eat every single meal out, so I'm in with the public a lot and I can't help but notice what people are talking about, especially if they begin to get passionate with their speech. I just don't hear conversations concerning America becoming a dictatorship, or about our loss of freedoms and such and I do listen for such things. Perhaps the participants on ATS represent the pointy end of the spear or something and others will soon be talking about these things. Right now; however, they are not talking about such things (at least in public places), so I conclude we may be a bit overly concerned here on ATS.

Or more likely the public is more interested in American idol or some other drivvel. Too busy filling their minds with silly inconsequential garbage to take much note.

Since your average ATS user is not the normal person on the street, but one who is more interested in the state of the Union than Britney's stretch marks, we can rightly be concerned on here about the condition of America.

That is why it is important to hold onto hope, and work to get peoples minds off of silly crap like reality TV and get them to pay more attention to REALITY.

As I said Skadi_the_Evil_Elf we may represent the pointy end of the spear and be well in advance of the general public with our discussions. I certainly concur with your implications concerning watching TV--you don't have to be retarded to watch TV, but it certainly helps.

I don't think there are many people in favor of extra monitoring of communications in normal peacetime situations. In fact the ATS community is even more opposed to it than the public on average. However, we are living in times that very well could depend on that same monitoring to save thousands if not tens of thousands of lives here in America. The world for America changed 9-11 and we have to face this new reality head on.

We know we have enemies in the world that have not only threatened but actually carried out attacks of mass destruction on our homeland. I don't think many here are as naive to believe that given the opportunity, Al Qaeda and it's ilk would not hesitate to strike once again on U.S. soil, inflicting as many deaths and casualties as they could. The Iraq war has nothing to really do with Al Qaeda's plans in regards to the U.S. We have been in their gun-sights for over a decade.

The dilemma for us it to choose the lesser of two evils. Do we not do enough in intelligence gathering and risk missing some possible signs of an impending attack? Or do we do too much in the way of collecting intelligence, perhaps treading on ground that we have not previously, to try to prevent an attack?

Honestly I think the government, regardless of who is in power is dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. Will those voices who decry losses of freedom, still say that when the next major terrorist strike hits the American Heartland? There will be those on the other side of the spectrum who will say we didn't do enough and should expel all people from Arab countries here on visas.

Will Politicians want to be judged on doing too little in the way of preventing possible attacks or criticized for allowing too much latitude in intelligence gathering? Ideally, there would be a perfect balance of freedom vs. security but it is a very delicate see-saw we are now on.

I think we all wish for the time pre 9-11. The World seemed so much simpler then. That moment is already a watershed event in our history. How many of you have said to yourself at one time or another something like " I remember when you didn't have to __________ before 9-11".
Unfortunately we will all have to reminisce about those days.

Originally posted by pavil
we are living in times that very well could depend on that same monitoring to save thousands if not tens of thousands of lives here in America. The world for America changed 9-11 and we have to face this new reality head on.

Yeah, because nothing bad happened pre-9-11, right?

Let’s weigh things out.

Pol Pot killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Pol Pot would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Stalin killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Stalin would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Mao killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Mao would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Who else can you think of that killed his people after getting the same powers that our government wants (has?)

Every government that has approached our level of police state has turned into an example of pure evil.



Now, on the other side of the coin, terrorists killed about 3000 on 9/11. So far as wars go, that is not very many. Was it 16,000,000 Americans killed in WWII or 16,000,000 total? I can never remember.

Millions next to thousands when compared to real war.

Millions next to thousands when compared to the path our nation is headed down (historically)


Times are different says you.

SSDD says I.

Originally posted by cavscout

Let’s weigh things out.

Pol Pot killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Pol Pot would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Stalin killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Stalin would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Mao killed millions with his invasive and controlling government. Mao would have drooled over the information gathering capabilities our government has.

Who else can you think of that killed his people after getting the same powers that our government wants (has?)

Funny that you mention all those dictatorships and you don't say anything about all of them being Communist.... What is funnier is that many members in these forums actually think that Communism would be a better form of government than the Representative Republic we have at this moment...

Something which has become envogue nowadays, and more so among many conspiracy theorists is that a lot of the agendas which the left has (liberals, democrats/socialists) are pretty much the same as the agendas all those dictatorships you mentioned had.

All those dictatorships had/have one thing in common, they all promised the common man better things, everyone would be treated equally, they would all be as rich as the richest living in their country, or some similar nonsense... At the end none of that happened and the most cruel and oppresive regimes formed.

Originally posted by cavscout
Every government that has approached our level of police state has turned into an example of pure evil.

No, every government which has embraced the Communist agenda has failed and have become some of the most represive governments on Earth.

The United States is not one of those countries, unless people become brainwashed, which quite a few have been brainwashed already to the reality of Communism. If a majority of people accept the "revolution of the workers" once more, then the United States will become like one of those countries you mentioned.

Originally posted by cavscout
Now, on the other side of the coin, terrorists killed about 3000 on 9/11. So far as wars go, that is not very many. Was it 16,000,000 Americans killed in WWII or 16,000,000 total? I can never remember.

Make no mistake, Islamic extremism is happening all over the world. In Sudan alone since 1983 till 2003 over 2 million people have been murdered by Arab militias with the backing of the Islamic government of Sudan, which called for two jihads, one starting in 1983-2003, and the second one from 2003 til the present. The last count of the amount of people who have been killed in the second jihad in Sudan was around 400,000 people, and that was back in 2004 or 2005.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]

The only reason that Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao would have drooled was because the technology was not available at that time. I daresay that any past leader would have been envious, and would not have hesitated to use them were they available.

Their methods of intelligence gathering were much more primitive and personal.

ANYONE who thinks those two forms of "government" (oppression is a better term) are viable options to a Republic really does need to study history. The POINT here is we do have a republic and the people are responsible for their liberty. The people alone. Elected officials, being Human, will se eto their personal best interests frst IF they think they can get a way with it. History supports that statement completely.

We must make sure our Representatives serve to PROTECT our liberties and not their own interests, or the interests of their masters ahead of them. Those represntatives who fail must be sent home in dishonor. PERIOD.

Springer...

Originally posted by Muaddib
Funny that you mention all those dictatorships and you don't say anything about all of them being Communist....

I know, it is funny!

Funny that I mention all those dictatorships and I don't say one thing about all of them being Asian

Funny that I mention all those dictatorships and I don't say one thing about all of them wearing shoes

Funny that I mention all those dictatorships and I don't say one thing about all of them being male

Hitler.

There, feel better?

Representative Republic we have at this moment...

No we are supposed to be a republic, we used to be a republic. We are now some kind of pseudo democracy.

Make no mistake, Islamic extremism is happening all over the world.

Yeah, sure it is. And it has been mohamed made up islam. Not something new.

Now, Americans tend to be a bit "un-worldly" (or just un caring) and think this is all something new, but if you hop into a time machine you would be able to visit a world where islamic extremists ruled much of the known (then) world.


[edit on 17-5-2006 by cavscout]

First of all, you should know that Communism has existed, and exists even in countries that are not Asian....

Originally posted by cavscout
Hitler.

There, feel better?

Well, you know what I really find hilarious? Hitler blamed everything on the Jewish people, he claimed that all the problems in the world were because of the Jews...

Nowadays you get people, mostly liberals/democrats/socialists, perhaps not all but most of them, who in order to try to sell their agenda against the United States they claim that president Bush is like Hitler.... When the facts speak for themselves, Hitler hated minorities and he though minorities were weak. And as everyone knows the present administration has more minorities in power than almost any other presidency before this one...

You know what is the funniest thing of all? That the same people who claim that president Bush is like Hitler, most of them if not all hate Israel and bash and blame Israel everytime they get a chance....

So, who is really more like Hitler?..... I would think it would be those people who always bash and blame Israel alongside the U.S. for everything that happens in the world....

Originally posted by cavscout
Yeah, sure it is. And it has been mohamed made up islam. Not something new.

Now, Americans tend to be a bit "un-worldly" (or just un caring) and think this is all something new, but if you hop into a time machine you would be able to visit a world where islamic extremists ruled much of the known (then) world.

i have never said "it is something new" and in fact I have been one of the members who has made threads about the "other side of Islamic extremism that noone wants to hear about."

Islamic extremists nowadays are doing exactly the same things that Mohammed did since he united all Arab tribes and made them convert into Islam.

Mohammed wanted the world to be dominated by Islam, and he set forth to do this by the sword. Islamic extremists are trying to continue what Mohammed started back in the 7th century AD.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Do you hate "minorities", Muaddib? Because you do give a lot of lip service to bashing a liberal point of view on this matter without seeing the other side of the situation. At least admit that you don't want to listen to what the people "left" of you have to say without being upset by it--especially when it has to do with "privacy" and "civil liberties".

I, for one, think it is valuable to see what the other side is thinking without any derision.



[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Muaddib
First of all, you should know that Communism has existed, and exists even in countries that are not Asian....

Originally posted by cavscout
Hitler.

There, feel better?

Well, you know what I really find hilarious? Hitler blamed everything on the Jewish people, he claimed that all the problems in the world were because of the Jews...

Nowadays you get people, mostly liberals/democrats/socialists, perhaps not all but most of them, who in order to try to sell their agenda against the United States they claim that president Bush is like Hitler.... When the facts speak for themselves, Hitler hated minorities and he though minorities were weak. And as everyone knows the present administration has more minorities in power than almost any other presidency before this one...

You know what is the funniest thing of all? That the same people who claim that president Bush is like Hitler, most of them if not all hate Israel and bash and blame Israel everytime they get a chance....

So, who is really more like Hitler?..... I would think it would be those people who always bash and blame Israel alongside the U.S. for everything that happens in the world....

Dude! That was great!

One minute Im like reading what I thought was going to be a great post and then BAM! BANG! WAMMO! you twist the subject. You almost had me!

Did I compare Bush to Hitler? No.
Did I say anything about Bush? No.
I think someone has Bush issues

The point I was making was Hitler was not communist (and that he was not asian, although he did wear shoes and was a male.(

i have never said "it is something new"

you said words to that effect I know you did, you know you did, everyone knows you did. Now you are just wasting my characters (6000 maximum, you know) holy crap, when did they add that!?)


Time to sleep but I have like 4000 characters with which to school you later.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Do you hate "minorities", Muaddib? Because you do give a lot of lip service to bashing a liberal point of view on this matter without seeing the other side of the situation. At least admit that you don't want to listen to what the people "left" of you have to say without being upset by it--especially when it has to do with "privacy" and "civil liberties".

Where did i say i hate minorities?...BTW i am part of a minority because I am hispanic........

BTW, if you listen to what some members around here have claimed, they seem to think that the left is a majority....

Originally posted by ceci2006
I, for one, think it is valuable to see what the other side is thinking without any derision.

Pfft, please, you should be the last person to give a sermon about "not wanting to hear the other side without any derision"....

Originally posted by cavscout

Dude! That was great!

One minute Im like reading what I thought was going to be a great post and then BAM! BANG! WAMMO! you twist the subject. You almost had me!

As i recall i wasn't the one to mention Communist regimes and trying to tie them to the current events in the United States...

I was talking about "minority" political groups. But thanks for telling me that you're a person of color.

Out of great respect for Skeptic Overlord, I will not answer your other comment because I am not going to engage in petty bickering over here with you.

But I will engage in a debate with you about "civil liberties". I find you had no answer about the VA Nurse in my post on page three.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]