Well said SO.


Now lets wait for those people that claim that as long as they arent kicking in their own door.....everything is peachy. They remind me of someone being shot at and claiming everything is fine because they havent been hit yet.

What an eloquent op/ed piece. I think that this articulates the entire situation better than what I tried to explain on Nygdan's thread. As pessimistic as I am about the state of things in the country, I do look to the Constitution to remind me that these ideals of what was once thought of by the Founding Fathers isn't lost.

It is a shame that we are in the midst of a Constitutional crisis right now. And people who are too complacent would rather let the government twist the venerable set of laws to their own desires and selfish interests. We need to look at the bigger picture here. And we need to pay careful attention to what is happening in the context of history and current events.

I certainly hope that in that struggle with the very depth of our dignity and privacy, that people do get out of the rut of apathy. Because in the end, what affects one of us, affects all of us.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, but I guess it is that this nation is becoming a less "free" nation to live in. I would like to know one thing, just one thing, you or anyone you know has been arrested for, dissapeared, or banned from doing in the last ten years or longer that was a result of loss of liberty? We keep mentioning all this phone monitoring, but that has been going in for decades. It was even subtley hinted at in the movie True Lies.

When have you or someone you know been arrested for doing sometihng that is illegal now that was not illegal 30 years ago? How exactly has your life or anyone's you know been directly affected and made worst since these "attacks on our liberties" ?

I am not attacking your opinion at all, I just want to ask these questions. Because it seems you want to make it seem everyones life in this cioutnry has become horrible and that we are living in slave days where we must fall in line with everything. As far as I know, everything that I am doing now, I was doing since I can remember. Same goes for everyone I know. So I would just like to know how you or your friends/family have been affected by all of these attacks on liberty?

I am not saying it is ok to create a police state, I am not defending the loss of freedoms, I am not even defending any wiretapping, phone recording. I just honestly want to inquire how you or anyone you know has been affected by our loss of liberty. And this inquiry is not specifically directed at Skeptic Overlord either, I want to here from anyone ele.

I do not want to here attacks that I am defending tyranny, or the destruction of the Constitution, I just want to hear answrs to my questions. Because I cannot recall a moment where any of ths has directly affected anyone i know, so I want to know how it has affected others. I am simply curious is all.

less free....when things happen like the trashing of the dixie chicks for stating their own personal opinions...when protesters are shuffled off to "zones" so that those in power won't be bothered by opposition...when the FBI and pentagon spy on Quaker peace organizations...when the state adopts an attitude of if you don't agree with us, then you are opposed to us (or support the enemy), the list goes on and on...it is not the big things that matter that everyone cn see...it is the death of our freedoms by a thousand little cuts that count.

Oh...so the "trashing of the dixie chicks" is a calamity, but the "trashing of the president is "free speech"?....

BTW, since when are "protestors" who often do turn to violence allowed to be close to a president?....

You want to mention the surveillance and want to claim it is all just recently?... I have shown that the countries which agreed to have this type of surveillance have done it since at least 1948. Echelon has been around for a long time yet you dont mention this and want to claim "it is happening now and never before"...

At least in this thread SO is not doing the same thing that other members have done with their op/ed pieces. For that much SO at least has my respect, at least in this, but not my agreement.

Like DYepes asked, i would like to know what freedoms has SO lost, what has happened to you to say you have lost your freedom?

That i know of you have even posted pictures of protests you have been in, and you keep posting your opinion. So what freedom have you lost?

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

skepticO,
A very well written piece of prose that elegantly describes our broken dreams. This last 20 years or so of American history (our present) will be written about in countries around the world. I feel sad because all I have done is lambaste this administration and our pathetic Congress dominated by the defective individuals who took control while we slept.
Well said and accurate to the last dotted “i” and crossed “t”.
Here! Here!
sayswho (skep by any other name)

Originally posted by DYepes
I would like to know one thing, just one thing, you or anyone you know has been arrested for, dissapeared, or banned from doing in the last ten years or longer that was a result of loss of liberty?

Given the ideals upon which the founding of the articles that define this nation are based, asking that question is concern enough.

In any event, I know someone here in NYC who's cousin has been "detained" since soon after 9/11. One of the forgotten group rounded up and still being held.

Waiting until unjust arrests become clear is not the time to begin a concern for lost liberty.

Inspiration can arise from the oddest of places sometimes.

I too have tasted the bitterness of warnings unheaded, effronteries unchallenged, and cowardice heralded as statesmanship. But as I prepare to lie down with the beaten and insensate masses, one image keeps flickering in my mind:

The Tank Man of Tiennamin Square.

And I too rise up.

If those around you refuse to resist, strike out on your own. If they will be beaten, do not allow yourself to be bowed.

In other posts, Many other posts, I have tried to confront those who would willing trade thier souls for not so much as security, nor even illusionary safety, but merely for the delusion that being "one of the team, in with the current In crowd" is somehow more noble and righteous. It was discouraging. Moreso, I began to realize that it was, in fact a dis-courage-ment in spirit and practice, of the soul.

I will surrender much, but never my soul, the source of my freedom, the essence of my being. This is, I believe, something those long revered Founders understood most intimately. This, I belive, is what they sought to pass one as to us as thier Legacy and Gift.

The times may turn against us, but one person Can stop even a tank.

Do you know that "cousin of his" that well? How do you know that he has no criminal record, or even had an APB issued by the police on him for something he did?

There could be many reasons for this. How do you also know that your friend is not covering for his cousin? I know people that will lie what has happened to their family to avoid embarrasment.

Anyways, the question is "what freedoms have you lost"?

Originally posted by Muaddib
You want to mention the surveillance and want to claim it is all just recently?... I have shown that the countries which agreed to have this type of surveillance have done it since at least 1948. Echelon has been around for a long time yet you dont mention this and want to claim "it is happening now and never before"...

Does that make it right, Muadibb? If you are familiar with the history of government intrusions into the privacy of Americans, then you should realize the potential for an overarching (to say the least) government.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh...so the "trashing of the dixie chicks" is a calamity, but the "trashing of the president is "free speech"?....

I think the issue is more that someone expressing free speech is being trashed.

And we all know full well this administration is not the harbinger of this dark dread hanging over our heads. We "conspiracy theorists" have been speculating on the rising "police state" and 'fear mongering" as a means of control for decades. The political parties are just different flavors of the inevitable erosion of a once inspiring heritage. This moment in history is just as much Clinton's fault, as it is the fault of both Bushes, Regan, Carter, and on and on. The parties are just a diversionary illusion to split the population so that divided we fall.

SO, your op/ed also states "i once dreamed of liberty", so are you now rotting in jail and writing to us from the inside?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I think the issue is more that someone expressing free speech is being trashed.

Are you saying that all those fans, most of whom seem to be Republicans, don't have the right to express their own thoughts through free speech?

People spoke out against what "the Dixie Chicks" mentioned in the UK. There were people in Europe who agreed with them and stated their opinion on this, and there were many people in the States who disagreed and voiced their opinions too.

In the end, they were free to say what they wanted, but most of their fans disagreed with them and decided to do something about it by speaking out against the "Dixie Chicks". So how exactly is this any proof of "liberty being lost"?

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Better yet, Muaddib, I turn this question to you:

How would you envision America to be? How would like the citizens to act? And what do you think about the Constitution?

Muadibb, you wouldn't recognise a Liberty lost if it jumped up and smashed you in right in the face with a Canoe paddle.



[edit on 16-5-2006 by Code_Burger]

Originally posted by MuaddibAnyways, the question is "what freedoms have you lost"?

First off, have you heard of the term "foresight"?

The government is trying to make this hitherto illegal surveillance to become legal and start a propaganda campaign to justify its use in America based on this phantom war on terror. The use of this program is being dramatically expanded. And, there are very real stories of intimidation, harassment, and pressure occurring among the American public.

These "new" spy programs are being used to circumvent the requirement of a court order, as well as delegitimize the probable cause needed for "legal" surveillance.

Every person handles life's precious and adverse moments in their own personal way. Some react to the unmeasurable world of whispers, furtive glances, and reliance on feelings. I have not succumbed to those methods since I was a very young boy. A person's reactions depends upon their own physiology and experiences.

These days my natural reaction is to tear back the curtain to face what is behind it. Most times it is nothing more than a giant shadow cast by a very tiny uncertainty.

At the same time, I do not react to every hysterical report of the sky falling.

My dreams are not shattered. My faith in the present and the future of our country is not filled with fear, and I have never been accused of being apathetic.

I have great confidence in the strength of the American people and the spirit that made this country great. We are living in trying times, and these are made more dificult as much because of the complacency of the past as thee deeds of the present. We have never been tested as a nation as we are today; our nation had become weak while we fooled ourselves by thinking we were invincible.

The way that we handle the adversity - with feelings or with actions, will determine our future. I will continue to be on the front line.

I can't envision America to be any way i want to because America is composed of over 300 million people, all of whom have different ideas and opinions. It is alright for people to have different ideas and opinions, and they can express those ideas and opinons as long as they don't resort to violence.

But free speech also allows for people to disagree with each other, and this does not mean "oppresion" by any means. What is not alright is the call by some to "strike out", like another member just mentioned in here...to apparently commit any acts of violence. I have seen with my own eyes how protestors resort to throwing things, destroying property etc and then cry that they are in a dictatorship because they are arrested after their displays of violence....

I have seen people around here claim "we are in a dictatorship" because there were fences around the president at the Presidential inauguration, yet these same people don't think twice about what many of the protestors even behind these fences did.. Throwing all sorts of objects and trying to bring down the fences in several places, among some of the things they did.

BTW you should have said the United States, i was born in America but not in the United States.

One more thing, exactly what are you trying to ask about the Constitution? You need to be more especific.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Beautifully put, SO. I envy you for being able to articulate exactly what is in my heart and soul. Words that i cannot describe. I share your feeling, as an America loving person that i am. There is nothing but darkness left and those who cannot see that darkness are even more fearful than you and I.
Muaddib, can you look within yourself and tell me you are not just a little bit scared? I mean no disrespect either. It is not weakness if you are scared. Its just being human.