Quite a lot. But I understand your point. Because we are talking about this issue only as "Americans".

We just have to forget the little differences amongst us regarding the history of the Constitution and its treatment of civil liberties and privacy in regards to skin color.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh...so the "trashing of the dixie chicks" is a calamity, but the "trashing of the president is "free speech"?....

I think the issue is more that someone expressing free speech is being trashed.

And we all know full well this administration is not the harbinger of this dark dread hanging over our heads. We "conspiracy theorists" have been speculating on the rising "police state" and 'fear mongering" as a means of control for decades. The political parties are just different flavors of the inevitable erosion of a once inspiring heritage. This moment in history is just as much Clinton's fault, as it is the fault of both Bushes, Regan, Carter, and on and on. The parties are just a diversionary illusion to split the population so that divided we fall.

Many of you that have contested with me on other posts, know that I am an ardent supporter of the United States and all I feel she stands for.

That said, SO, reading your OP/ED I was taken back to the time of Ruby Ridge, then my mind wandered to Waco, and I understood how correct you may be. Beautifully written as well by the way.

I can not yet give up hope for the Country, the Ideal I have fought for, Bled for, for so many years now. So in my heart hope must endure, for what are we without hope. Yet we can never forget Ruby Ridge, or Waco and the frightening use of force against our own citizens.

Though I am sure some of you on here have considered me blind to all except a conservative agenda, I assure you I am not. All I wish on here is an understanding of equals. If one side can do it, it MUST be that both can or we teeter on the brink of Fascism. 100% my way is no more safe than 100% of the opposition. The Forefathers spoken of by SO included the checks and balances to ensure that there will always be equality in righteous demonstrations.

SO, I thank you for your piece and the feelings that it has stirred in me. I HOPE that others will read it and try to practice some understanding when dealing with the other side of an issue and how important it is that both sides are fair in the treatment given and expected.

Again Thank You SO

Still nonsense. It clearly says to act forcefully to remove the present administration. It clearly does not say to "forcefully remove".

LMAO acting forcefully means to BEGIN forcefully removing the present administration.

I cannot believe you admonished me to not 'twist what was really said' and blatantly twisted it yourself.

I have no idea how you can really think that after your attempted word twisting statement.

Its obvious that in order to act forcefully to remove the present administration it does not entail "forcefully" waiting for the next election then "forcefully" walking into the voting booth and "forcefully" voting..

Speaking of "race", "privacy" and "liberty", I have to tell the story of my Aunt and Uncle. When they were in college in the 1960's, they participated in the front lines of the Civil Rights struggle right in the midst of the fault lines in the deep South. I mean it when I say that they had to face attacks from the cops, the dogs and the hoses. My relatives had to deal with the "Separate, but Equal" rulings and had to deal with the intimidation that has to do with it. And fighting for their "rights" means more to them than probably a lot of Americans because Black people in general had to deal with the indignity, the anger and the hatred that came from enforcing these laws.

Their story of campaigning for the right to be acknowledged fully as "Americans" and as "people", might not resonate with you. Because you don't feel those same effects today.

But it sure does me. And that's why I am more concerned about the law than most. And that is why I care about civil liberties and privacy. Because for most people, this issue would not affect them. But for African-Americans, we think about having those rights to exist within the American population everyday. And we grieve when we see injustice happen.

But for the average "patriot", this doesn't even cross their mind. After all, skin color doesn't mean anything.




[edit on 18-5-2006 by ceci2006]

ceci
Your posting also brings to mind Ohio State and the massacre there.

"Lest we forget"

semperfortis, you're talking about Kent State, right? Yes, about the national guard sent to quell the student protesters and the shootings that happened.

That is something that deals with the issues of the government and the right to dissent.

Exactly, sorry
I was a kid then.

I wasn't even born when Kent State happened. I only know about it because of history.

And then, I realized that you said Ohio State. I'm sorry.

Did something similar happen at Ohio State?

[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Not that I'm aware.

I appreciate the correction though.

I was really moved by the OP/ED and trying to get my feelings down at the same time.

That's okay. I understand how Skeptic Overlord's piece is moving to a lot posters in many ways. It is moving to me. And above all else, his words remind me that we do have to care about our country no matter what position we stand on.

SO, thanks for laying out what a lot of us are feeling right now. Bravo.

Ceci (I had a feeling you were black ), you made a great point in an earlier post on this page. I can definitely see how black people would be wary of the direction the country is going in. I think the problem some here have is that they haven't had their rights taken in the supposedly free US after all the drama.

What I mean is, when this country was shining, when it had all the wealth in the world and put out all kinds of inventions, the average black person couldn't share in this golden age. I think it's a damn shame that now, when blacks have opportunities to really come up in America, the elites are flushing the country down the toilet. I've also heard some stories from my relatives. All I'll say is I'm glad I don't have to worry about stuff that bad now.

Muaddib, I have a question for you and the others who share your position. What the hell is a free speech zone in America?

See, you haven't had the Feds hit you with the Patriot Act for selling bootleg Rubix Cubes. You haven't had the Secret Service grill you, hit you with the Patriot Act, and threaten to arrest you for talking down on Bush. You haven't had the Secret Service come to your business when Bush is in town and tell you you can't put up anti-Bush signs at your business. You haven't been found not guilty by a jury of your peers and have a judge say, "I say you're guilty" and throw you in jail for years (those Waco guys just now got out).

When it hasn't happened to you, it's easy to say it's not happening at all.

Then again...I think you actually know what's going on and support it. I'm basing this on your America vs. US comment. Your description of America smacks strongly of the planned American Union. Too much for this to be coincidence...

Thanks, truthseeka. You are, a brother, as well?

And oh yes, my relatives have told me plenty of war stories about the old days of segregation. Especially my father and mother. That is why when people ask me whether I hate the government or not, I think they're crazy.

As a Black person, I might have the right to hate the government for all they did to African-Americans. But I don't. My relatives have served this country too far and too long for me not to be patriotic. I love this country. And I too have the right to care about social injustice--especially when it has to do with civil liberties and privacy.



[edit on 18-5-2006 by ceci2006]

We all need to stop buying into the political spin doctors and all of the "special interest groups". All of these serve the same purpose: they define people into small groups, then convince each group that all the other groups are 'the enemy' and are somehow 'against' them, therefore they must be opposed. This ensures that nobody is looking at the 'big picture' and that we will never get together and work together to fix what is wrong with this country.

If we can all forget about the pigeon-holing BS for a while and concentrate on the problems that all of us face, we could easily work together to not only restore this nation to the one that SO wrote of, but to further the ideals upon which it was built. I'm not talking about revolutions or uprisings here (except in the voting booths), I'm talking about taking our nation back from corrupt politicians, lobbyists and special interest groups. I'm talking about making the US the country we all wish it was...the US that has only ever existed in the hopes and dreams of people both in the US and in other nations.

I have been called crazy for this: I stated back in 1991, shortly after I first got on the internet, that it was the wave of the future and it was our best bet to end racism and bring about world peace.
My logic for this statement was the day that I found out that someone I had been debating with on a newsgroup somewhat similar to this forum was...well, someone completely opposite of what I had pictured in my mind. It was then that I realized that we were communicating as who we were (our thoughts, feelings and beliefs), not what we were.

We must never allow ourselves to become pigeon-holed and begin seeing others as a what; everyone out there is a who, just like you are. Understanding that is the only way to true peace and equality.

Sorry, that's just my opinion....

[edit on 5/18/2006 by Jaryn]

You people have been brainwashed by the public education system. The founders of America were fleeing European oppression and HAD to leave or they would die, their bravery was normal and very imaginable. Stop with the overglorification, tools.

Opposed to the private school system? Just wanted to know if they dealt with a specific form of American history different from the public school system.

Perhaps boarding school might have been more useful than having mommy and daddy's darling shut away while they took a trip out of the country. They probably have a better, if not more austere history of the United States within their hallowed halls.

That is...if mommy's and daddy's darling actually took the time to study there.

Why is the reverence of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers a bad thing? Should we not be reverent when talking about the orgins of the United States?







[edit on 18-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Today, our votes don't count and we have millions struggling to make a "living wage".

Sure. Progress.

I'm not sure yours is a valid point worth pressing.

SO the problem seems to be that you, and some other people, think that the votes that count are only of the minority. Minority issues are important but at the end the majority is the one who decides who is going to be president/senator etc, etc.

Please don't give me as an example to back your claim a poll of questions asked to 1,000-3,000 people.... 1,000-3,000 people does not make a country...

If you want to see the size of the people that keep protesting against the war (for example) looking at the protests done by illegal immigrants should tell you how small the anti-war crowd is when a portion of illegal immigrants, who have more to fear by making protests in the streets than American citizens since they are illegal in the country, can gather more people than the war protesters can.... And they are a portion, and most probably not the majority, of the 10 million illegal immigrants.

BTW, another member has given several times links as to how "the economy and unemployment is doing nowadays", and the numbers prove differently to what you are saying.

[edit on 18-5-2006 by Muaddib]

I don't know what I am doing wrong in finding the prerequisites for an American citizen to run for office, but I am not getting any help from any of you. I have searched google for "I want to be a politician", "prerequisietes for becoming a politician", and "how to become a politician" and neither one of them gave me any of the answers I needed. The fact that people are starting to bring skin color into this topic as if it has any relevance to anything is not helping us at all.

You all are complaining about needing to change the government, but are not even pursuing or attempting to help those who pursure the information to change things. Why vote for someone else when we may have the chance to be the one being voted? How are we even going to know how to become a leader if you don't help us find what we need to do to run?

This thread reminds me of the speech given by Alexander Tytler, Or atleast this part of it.

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall.
The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage.

I pray for us all.

wupy

Originally posted by DYepes
I don't know what I am doing wrong in finding the prerequisites for an American citizen to run for office, but I am not getting any help from any of you. I have searched google for "I want to be a politician", "prerequisietes for becoming a politician", and "how to become a politician" and neither one of them gave me any of the answers I needed. The fact that people are starting to bring skin color into this topic as if it has any relevance to anything is not helping us at all.

DYepes

Basically, there are no requrements other than age and citizenship. Good example: Marion Barry, a convicted felon from Washington, DC. The fools in DC re-elected him after his conviction on drug charges, but I think this says more about the electorate than the candidate.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Today, our votes don't count and we have millions struggling to make a "living wage".
Sure. Progress.

SO the problem seems to be that you, and some other people, think that the votes that count are only of the minority. Minority issues are important but at the end the majority is the one who decides who is going to be president/senator etc, etc.

I don't think you understand the problem. Both parties rely on corporations and powerful lobbyists as their constituency. Both make vague promises about helping America to get elected and then never follow through. Both parties have and do seek to increase their own power and that of the government at the expense of the people. During voting, ever hear of the concept of the lesser of the two evils?

As well, as much as I am for a free market, I must say that the purpose of wealth should not be power and accumulation of wealth in itself. A progressing civilization should realize that the accumulation of wealth should have social benefits apart from the indirect effects of a few individuals hording the bulk of wealth. In general, people should be free from poverty. This is a vague idea, I know.