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I Once Dreamed of Liberty (Op/Ed)

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posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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SO,

It seems more and more like we are becoming the type of country the colonists fled from, but you'd have to admit we still have made significant progress since then


after all, ben franklins wife couldn't vote, and he had slaves !!!!


there is a middle class. and we have a service economy and web based economy as well as textile, mfg and farming

talk to me when mexico builds a fence to keep americans OUT




posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:21 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006


A Nurse's Courage
She urged readers to, "act forcefully to remove a government administratioplaying games of smoke and mirrors and vicious deceit."

The response to Berg's letter was harsh. Her office computer was seized. And the government announced it was investigating her for sedition -- that's right, sedition. V.A. human resources chief Mel Hooker wrote in a letter to Berg, "The Agency is bound by law to investigate and pursue any act which potentially represents sedition."

To date the VA has yet to issue a public apology to Berg.


Would you argue that this nurse's rights have been tampered with?


Again....you are tlaking about someone who was urging people to act forcefully against the present administration....

In any government around the world, what that woman wrote alone is more than enough to investigate her more because she is urging people to use violence against the government....

Some people nowadays don't seem to know the difference between peaceful protests and violent anarchy...


Originally posted by ceci2006[/
Read Amy Goodman's interview with the VA nurse and ask that question again.


I read enough to know that that woman is an extremist. People don't have to be Muslims to be extremists...

Any government that finds any writting from a person who is calling for violence in their countries will be investigated and possibly arrested.

Again, you are trying to twist the truth to sell an agenda.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:30 PM
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Again, have you asked me what my purposes are? Here you are assuming my attentions again.

And about the nurse, did you actually read the interview?

And how can you say she is an extremist? She was not shouting "Fire" in a crowded building?

What is your criteria about who is extremist or not?



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
In any government around the world, what that woman wrote alone is more than enough to investigate her more because she is urging people to use violence against the government....


That's nonsense. As an example, "forcefully" responding to your post is USING BOLD CAPS IN ORDER TO MAKE A DEFINITE STATEMENT

Its a stretch to define "forcefully" as advocating violence. I can 'forcefully" influence the county commission through a yard sign campaign, or well written, thoughtful letters to the editor, or even showing up at a meeting and making myself heard.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Well, since you know, tell us what a real dictatorship is like, Muaddib.
Please, he knows all about it. He lived in one.

Yes, and i still have family living in such a dictatorship and I am almost certain that you also have some family there too. Last time i was there, 2001, things were a lot worse and castro was still selling his propaganda and brainwashing people against the United States, but you and I both know most people don't believe his lies anymore, after decades under Communism, most people can see the truth of who is the dictator...


Originally posted by dgtempe
Muaddib, remember the "committees" set up all over Cuba in order to keep a watch on people and report people who do not agree with the government???


The neighborhood Committees in communist countries control every aspect of a neighborhood. There are spies who write down if anyone is critizicing castro, these people lose jobs and dissapear. None of that happens in the U.S. There are a few people in these same forums who critizice the present administration and they have jobs with companies that work for the United States government, yet none of them have lost their jobs. But I am sure some people will claim they have...

BTW, do you remember a while back, before the 2004 election about the plans that i presented which Kerry had in mind?... Those would have really been the road to a real dictatorship... Do you also remember the follow up article which i gave in which Kerry tried to convince president Bush to accept those plans he had and president Bush said no? If he would have said yes, I would be more inclined to believe what you are saying.


Originally posted by dgtempe
What do you mean what liberties??? Does this post ^ sit well with you? Maybe you think we should have centers where we can call and rat out our neighbors?
Good idea, huh? Of course, it must be good. Its something that the Bush administration is breeding and giving life to. And dont tell me he has nothing to do with this. He is setting the tone for all this BS.


I am not 100% certain but last i remember what people have been asked to report is if people leave suspicious packages, and of course if you see strange happenings in the middle of the night you should be reporting those too. A lot of burglaries and crimes have been prevented by people being in the lookout.

As long as people don't try to "urge for others to use violence" and as long as they discuss in a civil manner and without calling for jihads, or violent protests people can discuss whatever they want.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I was talking about "minority" political groups. But thanks for telling me that you're a person of color.



[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]
Hello? What makes you think he's a person of color because he's hispanic??? I'm hispanic and couldnt be whiter.
But that's another thread, i suppose.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by MrPenny
That's nonsense. As an example, "forcefully" responding to your post is USING BOLD CAPS IN ORDER TO MAKE A DEFINITE STATEMENT

Its a stretch to define "forcefully" as advocating violence. I can 'forcefully" influence the county commission through a yard sign campaign, or well written, thoughtful letters to the editor, or even showing up at a meeting and making myself heard.


Really? so urging people to forcefully remove the present administration is not asking people to resort to violence?... Don't try to twist what was really said in the excerpt ceci gave...it clearly says she was urging people to forcefully remove the present administration...



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Hello? What makes you think he's a person of color because he's hispanic??? I'm hispanic and couldnt be whiter.
But that's another thread, i suppose.


I have some relatives who are black, but it is because they married black folks, most of my family is white, my own skin is white and I have light hair and light eyes. Being hispanic doesn't mean we are all dark or black.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:44 PM
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Well, I guess you can pass...can't you?



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Well, I guess you can pass...can't you?


What in the world are you talking about now?



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Well, you are discussing how "white" you are. I know that you probably don't mean what you probably meant to say. But, I certainly hope that you're aren't saying the "darker" the more worse.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:50 PM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Well, you are discussing how "white" you are. I know that you probably don't mean what you probably meant to say. But, I certainly hope that you're aren't saying the "darker" the more worse.


what makes you think that dark is worse?... Where did I even hint at saying this?...

Let me be more specific, on my mother side my family is white with blue and green eyes, the roots of my mothers family is from northern Spain.... On my father side my family is a bit darker in color and everyone has dark hair because my family roots on my father side are from the Canary Islands....

Darker in color doesn't mean worse...it just means darker in color...

BTW, i also have chinese and Taiwanese blood. Nowadays most people are a mix of many different races...

Anyways back to the topic, i don't see what liberties some people are saying they have lost.


[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 09:57 PM
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Originally posted by Astronomer70
Aelita if I heard discussions like this one outside of this forum, say in the cafes, resturants, coffee shops, etc. I would be more concerned. I eat every single meal out, so I'm in with the public a lot and I can't help but notice what people are talking about, especially if they begin to get passionate with their speech. I just don't hear conversations concerning America becoming a dictatorship, or about our loss of freedoms and such and I do listen for such things. Perhaps the participants on ATS represent the pointy end of the spear or something and others will soon be talking about these things. Right now; however, they are not talking about such things (at least in public places), so I conclude we may be a bit overly concerned here on ATS.
[edit on 17-5-2006 by Astronomer70]


I've learned from experience that discussing in public things like loosing freedoms and the possibility that the military industrial complex is not morally sound is not encouraging. The people I'm talking to typically look uncomfortable and change the subject. Others look at me like I'm a threat. I don't talk about it in public anymore

Like another poster commented, I also have faith in my fellow Americans to do what's right, but I find that faith slowly slipping as I observe the increasing apathy, distraction, and selfishness of so many of the folks I encounter in public. They just don't seem to care much about anyone but themslves.

One of the big bosses where I work has a sticker on his office door with an American flag and boldly proclaiming "We're still united." We most definately are not. Our favorite democrats and republicans in power along with their corporate masters are working hard to ensure that that does not change.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:01 PM
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Muaddib, there is nothing wrong with being dark or light. I pointed it out because i hate it when people assume something. BTW, my grandparents are from the Canary Islands. Told ya you were blood.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:02 PM
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Skin color has nothing to do with anything in the world, and should not even be brought into a discussion. It serves no purpose. Anyways, I have yet to see anyone who cna claim they have personaly lost any civil liberties, or been restricted from doing what they have been able to do in the past.

I also can not find any sources for what it would take for any American citizen here to run for Senator, Representative, or even Mayor of their city. Please someone help me, the sooner we find that out, the sooner we can work on putting our own people into office.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:03 PM
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Okay. I understand now. I guess that a "person of color" means that the person actually has to have a tan to black skin color. I always thought that a "person of color" encompasses Latinos, Blacks, Asians, etc.

That's what I meant. No disrespect to dgtempe and Muaddib. But now, I understand about Muaddib's politics.

But I disagree with DYepes. Skin color does have do with the discussion because it is true that while the Founding Fathers were writing about the "liberties" of man--many of them had slaves.

Thomas Jefferson had an affair with Sally Hemmings. Yet he thought that Blacks only compromised "three-fifths" of a person. So, it might be assumed that he felt that African-Americans probably deserved "three-fifths of liberty".

And of course, Washington had slaves. And he was talking about the "inalienable rights of man".

That's why sometimes in these talks about patriotism, a little hypocrisy comes to light.

It took until the 1860's to pass the Emancipation Proclamation. And then, it took until 1964 to pass the Civil Rights Act. And then, it took until 1965 to pass the Voter's Rights Act.

I'm, respectfully sure, without the Voting Rights Act, people like Muaddib could vote without being intimidated.

But for myself, being of medium-skin color, I would have to face intimidation, poll taxes or even the "grandfather clause".

My mother had to pay a poll tax until the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

So liberty and privacy might be a little thing to people who don't think about every day. But it sure means quite a lot to me and my family. Especially when we see our brethen and other "people of color" intimidated on their way to their voting precincts in Florida and Ohio.

Not to mention through "datamining" unwittingly and falsely accused some African-Americans of being felons. If that's not about civil liberties and privacy. I don't know what is.





[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Muaddib, there is nothing wrong with being dark or light. I pointed it out because i hate it when people assume something. BTW, my grandparents are from the Canary Islands. Told ya you were blood.


To me it doens't make any difference either, but Ceci was trying to make a big deal out of it it seems, and now I don't even know what she is trying to imply with her last statement...

That's what I meant. No disrespect. But now, I understand about Muaddib's politics.
.....

She seems to imply and assume quite a bit.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:13 PM
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I'm sorry for assuming. I didn't mean to. But, I guess I have to redefine my classification of who is a "person of color" or not.

So, it's okay. If you don't know what I meant, then think nothing of it.


But about "implying" and "assuming", Muaddib, look who's calling the kettle black.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
after all, ben franklins wife couldn't vote, and he had slaves !!!!


Today, our votes don't count and we have millions struggling to make a "living wage".

Sure. Progress.

I'm not sure yours is a valid point worth pressing.



posted on May, 17 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Really? so urging people to forcefully remove the present administration is not asking people to resort to violence?... Don't try to twist what was really said in the excerpt ceci gave...it clearly says she was urging people to forcefully remove the present administration...


Still nonsense. It clearly says to act forcefully to remove the present administration. It clearly does not say to "forcefully remove".

I cannot believe you admonished me to not 'twist what was really said' and blatantly twisted it yourself.

And,.........'acting forcefully'...WHAT IN HEAVENS NAME DOES YOUR ETHNICITY, RACE, OR SKIN COLOR HAVE TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION?.......

People......focus...


[edit on 17-5-2006 by MrPenny]

[edit on 17-5-2006 by MrPenny]



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