NSA is keeping logs of phones calls in the US

I have to agree. This is not new, nor is it "news." As others have said, this did start in 1997. When I published, I wrote about it.
I don't enjoy saying this, but you were all warned. Did anybody listen? No.

I'm no the only author to write and publish on this subject. If you bother to pull your head out of the sand, you'll find more.

Mod Edit: Edit Of Self Promotion


[edit on 11-5-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

I'd rather be safe ...AND... free.

This administration's failure to appreciate that concept, makes it as criminal as the terrorists we purport to defend against.

so just because it was implemented in 97 that means that we shouldn't discuss it? Also it being part of the whole current illegal wiretapping issue I think its at least relatively relevent.

also an applaud to Jsobecky, I looked through the names just to see what users touched on the subject. Jsobecky was the only person to touch it that usually goes pro on this stuff. I figured that none of the Pro wiretapping/bush people would touch this but jsobecky is at least debating his side so an applaud.

doesn't mean I agree with him, just that his position isn't easy to defend and I'm just suprised boatphone and Muaddib haven't come in yet telling us how stupid we are for thinking this is bad. At least Jsobecky has some respect from me.

Now off of the members, to the issue.
I think that this is all getting out of control, we need to start enforcing FISA, but the patriot act I'm sure goes above it. Since when do certain laws become worth more then others? Whats the point of having FISA if their patriot act can just override it anyway?

Originally posted by Shadowbear

Originally posted by signs

Every American wants to be safe from terrorists and yet some don't want their government empowered to keep them safe. Anyone for ping-pong?

[edit on 11-5-2006 by signs]

Actually no, I don't want to be safe.
I want to be free.

Unfortunately, the past and current administations have stolen that choice from me.

And you.

What good is freedom to a dead man?

what good is life to a slave?
The idea of becoming free again.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.

I guess we remember nothing of our roots, and have forgotten where we live. Sometimes we must remember that freedom comes at a price. People that have forgotten what freedom is worth, will be reminded with the blood of innocent people. These innocent people are patriots of our country, dying in representing what we should stand for.

like they say "you don't know what somethings worth till its gone"
personally I don't want my freedom to be gone.


[edit on 11-5-2006 by grimreaper797]

get up stand up..stand up for your rights

"Those who are ready to sacrifice freedom for security ultimately will lose both." Abraham Lincoln

Originally posted by signs

What good is freedom to a dead man?

How good are your constitutional rights when our own elected government are stepping all over them and disregarding them.

The right wing apologists keep saying I lie when I call it like I see it but tell me who keeps violating the constituation?

from dgtempe
WRONG. The FCC did some monitoring always- There has always been monitoring of criminal activity, etc. You arent going to tell us you dont know the difference? Qwest dont want to play. I wonder why??? They say what they are asked to do is highly illegal. I hate their service, but GOOD FOR THEM.
Maybe you should ask them why THEY dont want to play this game, huh?

We all know how much info about ourselves is being spread everytime we apply for a loan or go to the ER or many other routine activities that we participate every day. Is any of that info being used maliciously? How do you know that it isn't? But I don't hear any complaints about that, as long as we can spend our money or pop our pills.

Maybe that's what we need, eh? A blue pill or a ten grand handout for each of us.

Originally posted by MrPenny
Yes, telephone companies do it constantly because we implicitly agree to let them do it with the stipulation that our information is kept private and secure.

This same technology, data mining 'social networks', can be used to track the communications of casual pot smokers for instance.

Not the way the data is being used currently. All you can say is that somebody on Phone Line A called somebody on Phone Line B. You cannot prove anything else without actually recording the conversation.

If recording conversations was proved, I may change my mind about the subject.

Originally posted by jsobecky

We all know how much info about ourselves is being spread every time we apply for a loan or go to the ER or many other routine activities that we participate every day.

But they don't ask you for your political affiliations or with who you associate, something that can be easily done keeping records of the phones your call.

Js, once a phone number is acquired the next step is just to get the names or persons that are associated with that phone number.

Why our government wants to know all these? what purpose does it serve?

This is beyond terrorist spying Js it is.....

Data bases can bee feed on computers and make list of what part of the population lean to any specific issue, from politics to religion to possible problems to the government.

This phone keeping list is just a front of what the government is trying to do.

Nixon try to do the same thing and list where made also.

With the technology of today the possibilities are incredible.

If recording conversations was proved, I may change my mind about the subject.

But that is the problem Js, the administration already lie about the reason of wiretapping from being only from, possible to know terrorist over sea, to now finding out that even regular American citizens has been spied on within our borders.

See.... how do we know that behind all these lies the government already are not listening to conversations at will.....

We already found out that they are keeping phone listings and finding the name of the people behind those numbers is just a step away.

So who is to say that listening has already been done?

We should be aware of the if's because the next secret to come out is that already the listening has begun and has been for a long time.

[edit on 11-5-2006 by marg6043]

Of course they are listening and keeping track...I call Arizona at 9am and at 10pm to check on my mom.
You can bet my "regular" habits are being checked by the feds. If there was no intent to listen, they wouldnt have to bother.
There already are records of anything anyone would want to know, anyway. There's the phone book, the reverse phone book- other, many other ways to track people.
If you think this isnt being used to track your every move, conversation, pizza order, you're mistaken. :shk:

Says here they can ping your phone to track your movements too.

Most people know that when they make a mobile call--during a 911 emergency, for example--authorities can access phone company technology to pin down their location, sometimes to within a few feet.

A lesser-known fact: Cell phone companies can locate you any time you are in range of a tower and your phone is on. Cell phones are designed to work either with global positioning satellites or through "pings" that allow towers to triangulate and pinpoint signals. Any time your phone "sees" a tower, it pings it.

Got OnStar? Another nifty device sold under the guise of Safety.. And these customers are PAYING to be tracked?

How did we manage to get by back in the days of Ma Bell?

Ma Bell's bedrock principle — protection of the customer — guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information — period. That's how it was for decades," he said.

The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered.

The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be stiff. The Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no hard definition of "violation." In practice, that means a single "violation" could cover one customer or 1 million.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.

Leslie Cauley, USA TODAY

So they'll be a showdown with the FCC, Justice Dept, and Executive. Good thing Jr's got the SCOTUS stacked in his favor, eh?

Originally posted by jsobecky
All you can say is that somebody on Phone Line A called somebody on Phone Line B.

No, its not quite that one dimensional. Its very difficult to describe with out graphics...I'll look for some.
Here, not the best for demonstration purposes, but quick.


A calls B. Oh look, D is also calling B frequently. Hmm, G calls B every Monday at noon. Hey, doesn't G have a relative in Iran they call once a week? Didn't D call G last week? Maybe we oughta look at D's communications a little more closely.

And it's not just possible terrorists. It's any group that develops any kind of informal networks. Glock .40 enthusiasts, 45 yr old grandmas with a fondness for Hummell figurines.

When this gets abused, any citizen and their circle of trusted acquaintances, can immediately be targeted.

MrPenny

You got my way above vote, that is the best example in graphics of what computer generated information can do now a days.

That is great.

Humm, just a question....

Why is it that the same people who are now claiming this is the truth and nothing but the truth when other "informants who don't give their names or affiliation" say something which goes against something, these same people that are now outraged believe in, they claim... "oh wait a second, no name and no affiliation?....how do we know this is true? This is obviously a lie"....

[edit on 11-5-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by grover
The right wing apologists keep saying I lie when I call it like I see it but tell me who keeps violating the constituation?

In contrast with the Communist apologists who keep exagerating, lying and hiding information as they try to keep selling their agendas?...

You see it is kind of hard to believe anything liberals, anarchists, communists, half liberal/half democrats etc say when they themselves used the same subvertive tactics which they claim "all Republicans use" .....which includes exagerating, and lying trying to play the blame game....

I do remember something called Echelon...

Shall we see how long has this happened?...

In the greatest surveillance effort ever established, the US National Security Agency (NSA) has created a global spy system, codename ECHELON, which captures and analyzes virtually every phone call, fax, email and telex message sent anywhere in the world. ECHELON is controlled by the NSA and is operated in conjunction with the Government Communications Head Quarters (GCHQ) of England, the Communications Security Establishment (CSE) of Canada, the Australian Defense Security Directorate (DSD), and the General Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) of New Zealand. These organizations are bound together under a secret 1948 agreement, UKUSA, whose terms and text remain under wraps even today.

home.hiwaay.net...

So really, how new is this?.... and i guess since 1948 nothing good has happened?...

[edit on 11-5-2006 by Muaddib]

To firmly set the NSA program within the law, Congress and the courts will have to think carefully about what's known in the signals intelligence world as "meta-data." These are the tags that identify the basic facts of a communication -- time, date, to, from -- but not its content. According to the Times and to other published reports, this routing information has been at the core of the NSA's new program. The agency has used sophisticated algorithms to analyze patterns of communication so that it can focus on people who may be linked to al Qaeda and then, where appropriate, target its communications through FISA warrants or other procedures.

www.washingtonpost.com... /12/AR2006011201520.html


This is something that will have to be sorted out as new technology and adversaries make it important to stay one step ahead of those who would attack the U.S. The challenge as the article states (pretty good read) is:

the challenge will be the same as always: to use tools that can enhance security, but in a way that does not unduly diminish liberty.

Some people have seemed to imply that all of these calls have been "eavesdropped on". It sounds from the limited information we have, that no actual monitoring of individual's conversations nor the content of phone calls has been done. There seems to be some legal precedent in Smith v. Maryland that would allow this type of tracking. I am unclear of Congress amended things in response to that ruling by the Supreme Court, perhaps some one can research that for us. Then there is the issue of what the Patriot Act allows as well.

Originally posted by signs

Originally posted by Shadowbear

Originally posted by signs

Every American wants to be safe from terrorists and yet some don't want their government empowered to keep them safe. Anyone for ping-pong?

[edit on 11-5-2006 by signs]

Actually no, I don't want to be safe.
I want to be free.

Unfortunately, the past and current administations have stolen that choice from me.

And you.

What good is freedom to a dead man?

Don't you get it?

There is no such thing as "safe". We are never "safe".
From anything.

Ever.

Only freedom works.

Actually, a lot of the ...er...legal precedent....is being created as we speak. The mere fact that the current president is doing thigs...and getting away with them....will be enough for any future presidents to do the same, and get away with it. Bear in mind that this goes well beyond the matter of actual spying. We're seeing the scope and authority of the Attorney General vastly expanded. If you really want to know how all this turns out, read the actual text of the revised Patriot Act, then spend a few minutes on the web site for the Director of National Intelligence.

I am becoming so weary of not only this govrnment, but the American people also. When I was a child I loved both America and the Gov. Then as a young adult I loved just the people. Now a good share of the people (after going to that Shaun Hannity site, I was really shocked that so many found this to be something that is needed) are so ready to give up what makes them American, for security.

Then go drive down a frigging freeway!

That freeway kills more than all the terroists world wide! Some are ready to give up being a PROUD American for terrorism?!? Those that think that way make me sick! Where is your HONOR and COURAGE?!? Were you born without those frigging things?

Next time I am donning my SCBA so I can breathe in a structure fire to save your want to be a safe slave butt, I will remember that you want to give MY freedom up with yours.

Grow some big hairy ones, or go live in another country, but dont ruin this one!

[edit on 11-5-2006 by LoneGunMan]