NSA is keeping logs of phones calls in the US

Reform, or revolt. It's probably going to come down to just that. Eventually, those who are willing to trade away their freedoms will having nothing left to trade. Then, there will only be two choices left.

Courage and honr? Are they really in short supply?

There is really only one response to this..

So?

So there is a record of phone transactions. Who fricken cares?! The substance of the conversation isn't there. Hey, you mind-dead Bush haters. I have a couple links for you:

www.whitepages.com or www.google.com

The gov can get more info on you from the above than any stupid call list database..

To Apoc:

Can the whitepages or google tell you EVERYBODY that I have called in the past few weeks or months? And EVERYBODY who has called me? Im afraid not.

If men were angels, I would hop on the "who cares", "so what", and "if you have nothing to hide than dont worry" bandwagons. Unfortunately, men are not angels.

The US has abused these kinds of powers before, and I see no reason why they would not abuse them now. I see no indication that they will not repeat their mistakes of the Cold War. It really is no difference IMHO. We're just moving onto a second Cold War, only domestic in nature. But whether its the Cold War or War On Terror/World War Three, the abuse is bound to abound.


Side note:

To be honest, can we really believe that even this is the end? I mean, the issue used to be select international calls between terrorists. Then it became calls between terrorists regardless of their being domestic or not. And now, it is suddenly MILLIONS of americans? Im sorry, but the administration has directly lied and misled here. Millions of americans are not terrorists. War or no war, our freedoms must be protected from all threats, foreign and domestic. If we give up our liberties trying to protect them, than we havent accomplished much have we?

Yes, it is a balance; it always is during war time. However, this administration has given me little to no proof that the Patriot Act, these Call Logs, or any of their other "national security" measures have actually protected us from al qeada and other terrorist groups. For example: Just how many of the 12 million illegal immigrants in the US could be terrorists? And until they do, Americans have every right to vehemently oppose these measures. They should not be ridiculed as conspiracy nuts or minority dissenters. Trust on issues is built on experience, experience that is next to nil at the moment.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

Originally posted by aggroskater
Can the whitepages or google tell you EVERYBODY that I have called in the past few weeks or months? And EVERYBODY who has called me? Im afraid not.

No, but for 100$ and a few hours or so an online company will get you cell phone, and landline records and various other personal information of anyone in the US. Heck, the government should have just used them, much quicker and cheaper. Notice however, not much outrage over this is there?

Online data brokers and other companies openly advertise on the Internet that they can obtain others' phone records. For about $100, these companies will obtain all the calls made and initiated from a wireless phone, or toll calls from wireline phones. This is a dangerous and illegal practice. This information can be used by jealous spouses, stalkers, business competitors, political opponents, and others to learn about others' whereabouts and conversations. These companies sometimes offer other personal information, including medical records, banking records, and Social Security numbers.

Link

I particularly like this part:

This is a dangerous and illegal practice.

Yes, companies like that can get records and such, and its just as illegal for them to do it as it is for the NSA (without warrants of course). I wouldn't be surprised if the NSA works with these people. This brings up another issue: Centralization. I can understand why some people are promoting it, but am I the only one that finds it a bit foolish to put all you're money and time into one single spot? I mean, I think its like painting a giant target on your chest labeled, "come get me." What happens if the centralized whatever is wiped out? There aren't any "little men" (small businesses, etc.) to fall back on. Just an issue thats a bit more confusing to me...


[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

Point was that multiple private companies have just as much information available to them as the US government yet news wise nut much being said. Makes me wonder, could this all be just about politics...? No, silly me, of course not!

I was not at all surprised by this story.

I've suspected for years that there was some sort of data mining going on. I think that the NSA also has a sophisticated program that "listens" to calls too, right? If it picks up certain key phrases it records the conversation? I am not sure, but it is possible with today's technology.

They may not be listening to me (too boring), but I know that if I were say, an avid anti-war activist, or an anti-West Islamic cleric that they would for sure.

This doesn't mean that I am not angry that this is going on. I for one am tired of being lied to. The question that I have is where do we go from here?

I would like to hear what people are planning to DO about this. Lawsuits? vote for Democrats? Protests? Revolution??? I would have said never a year ago, but now I am starting to wonder...

Well... which one was it where corporations controlled the government? *Thinks back to highschool history class* Fascism. Now, Im not saying america is fascist. Were far from Mussolini's Italy. However, corporations obviously have sway in the government. But yeah, I understand your point. Its not just the governments that have the power, its private corporations. Or, are they one and the same? They probably do work together on stuff like this. Who knows.

P.S. - If it aint fascism, please correct me. Its been a while

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

I would like to hear what people are planning to DO about this. Lawsuits? vote for Democrats? Protests? Revolution??? I would have said never a year ago, but now I am starting to wonder...

Well, Lawsuits are out of the question. Anytime a law suit is brought against the NSA or any other organisation accused of spying, the US pulls the "state secrets" priviledge. They did that just recently too.

Democrats? They problem isnt left or right, liberal or conservative, democrat or republican. Its what is best for america that is the problem: No one cares. They want whats best for the aforementioned. It doesn't matter who has the floor, democrats or republicans. The issues will still remain.

Protests? Well, so long as its in "free speech zones" you're good to go... Though seriously, Id say this is a best bet, assuming you can inform millions of people and get them to join you.

Revolution? No. America needs stability, not revolution. And stability brought through extreme force is always lost.


[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by aggroskater]

I'm glad the media brought some attention to this story of NSA monitoring everyone in this nation. I believe the Patriot Act gave too much authority away if that is what made it legal since I've heard the Patriot Act makes all Americans be considered as terrorists. If that is true, then monitoring the whole nation makes sense. Hopefully this will be stopped. Congress has been sitting around going along with the Patriot act and all of the spying and the public only seems upset for a few days and then seems to act like it's no big deal and everything returns back to normal. I can only hope the storm doesn't die this time since members of Congress may be aware that their phone calls are being monitored as well along with their mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, children and everyone else because we may all be terrorists according to the Patriot Act IMO.

I don't even know if the Republicans are truly upset about this or about the fact that regular Americans may not vote for them because Americans remember something that really ticks them off. If new laws are passed to protect our privacy, something should be done to restrict phone records from anyone just calling in and lying about who they are and obtaining the information. I suppose recording everyone's internet activities and email data mining haven't really stirred the pot as much as a big database on everyone you've ever called. I wonder if the NSA thinks you have a relationship with someone if someone dialed the same wrong number at least twice? Maybe our intelligence community wanted to track down the terrorizing telemarketers claiming I won something. I guess they can do it now.

After reading up on this thread, there's a couple of things that strike me about this whole thing.

First, and I may be wrong, but isn't this type of actions by the government exactly the same things that made Communism such an enemy back in the 50s - 80s (we called it the Cold War)? Isn't the US government doing exactly the same thing that Stalin did in the former Soviet Union (only with better technology)?

Second, oddly enough, I recently finished re-reading Orwell's 1984, and honestly, the world of 1984 is coming true. I mean, parts of the book have been slowly coming true over the years, but within the past decade (and especially recently), the new realities from 1984 are becoming true at a rate that's very quickly snowballing. Additionally, it's the more horrific realities that have been recently coming true (such as realizing that privacy no longer exists) At this rate, we'll have no freedoms left within the next 5 years (and that's possibly being optimistic).

Finally, I want to address the Democrat vs. Republican aspect that some people have brought up. This really isn't a matter of party affiliation. The corruption exists on both sides. Fact is though, most of the Congressional and lower level politicians, regardless of party affiliation, disagree with much of what the current administration is doing. There have been many instances of politicians from both parties speaking out against certain practices by the top level administration. It seems to me that neither party is to blame for this, because Bush's top level administration (Pres, VP, Cabinet, etc) have strayed away from being Republicans, and have been leaning very heavilly towards Communism (Actually, I should say Marxism - true, uncorrupted Communism really isn't that bad an idea - too bad it only works on a VERY small level before corruption sets in).

I also think, from some of the links posted in this thread, that this really isn't something new, but rather an old practice that's now coming to light with the "invasion of privacy" spin, and thus causing the outcry we hear now. Of course, current technology is far better now than it was in the 40s and 50s, which makes executing such a program that much easier.

It'll be interesting to see if this news is enough to set the wheels in motion for a drastic revision of the government. It'll also be interesting to see the eventual form that revision takes. Will it be an act of Congress? Will it be a series of legal actions? Will it be revolution? Could this be enough to light fires under the asses of not just Congress, but the largely apathetic American public as well? This false hope of "security" is so entrenched in everyone's minds, that most people generally accept it. Those of us on here (and others, though very much a minority) who stay well-informed enough to discuss and debate the issue are the ones that can help to make a change. The problem is, for us to make that change, through whatever means (hopefully peaceably), will need to garner the support of a vast majority of Americans. Since, as I stated before, most Americans are generally apathetic about the actions of the government, this will be a difficult task, but well worth it. We, as Americans, need to band together, regardless of political affiliation, and remind the government that they are there to serve the wants/needs of the people, not themselves. We have the tools at hand - voting, petitions, our local governments, our Federal congresspeople, education, etc.

Remember, this country was founded to free our citizens from oppression. Now we're becoming exactly what our forefathers fought against. This has to end. This is not what our forefathers wanted for us.

You're quite right. America is becoming something other than what it was. That's why I ended up writing a book. I felt like I had to say something. I do feel better for having said my piece, and I recommend that others do it. You can check my profile if you want to see the title of my book, and the ISBN. Send me a u2 if you want. I know I've said this in other threads, but I really do think its important to speak now, or we'll be forced in to silence later on.

It just frightens me that this stuff is going on. But that is not as scary as reading some of the posts equally complicit with what they are doing with the wiretapping program.

And then, you cannot help but be angry at Congress because they are cowed into voting whatever way the Administration wants it with little dissention. They flop over like pancakes.

The only other recourse is to vote in November.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006


And then, you cannot help but be angry at Congress because they are cowed into voting whatever way the Administration wants it with little dissention. They flop over like pancakes.

The only other recourse is to vote in November.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by ceci2006]

I'm afraid voting, at least voting so that your vote counts is a thing of the past also. Do you think that Bush could do so much damage and have such low polls and not be lynched by his Republican party if the votes werent fixed? No way. He doesnt care- and the reason he doesnt care is because either there will be no more voting, or since the voting is fixed anyway, it wont matter- Just think a lifetime of G Bush.

and now, NSA, or Now Spying on America is off to a beautiful start.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by dgtempe]

I know it's angering that the government has been monitoring your phone calls.

It's nobody's business if you call Rosie's Massage Parlor......
But there is an up side to this revelation that the US Government is plugged into all of our communications. Because now that we KNOW this, the government cannot stage another fake terror attack to kick off more wars without the American people calling attention to the NSA phone monitoring being a total and complete failure!



I just ran into this and it makes sense. For what its worth

DG, I hope you're wrong but feel in my gut you are right. The only solution I see is that we all need to go out of our way to make sure the individual polling stations we go to are not compromised and that the process is highly scrutinized.

I don't care WHAT party you are, the loss of the vote affects us all and undermines the very fabric of the republic. I think there needs to be more education of the public about the potential pitfalls of the Diebold systems and voter fraud.

November will be the litmus test I personally use to judge whether all semblance of sanity and justice has left the American stage.

Originally posted by dgtempe the government cannot stage another fake terror attack to kick off more wars without the American people calling attention to the NSA phone monitoring being a total and complete failure!

My main concern is that the next terror attack will put the country in lockdown mode and martial law. It all becomes moot when that kind of system goes into effect- it will be too late and we will all have noone to blame but ourselves for allowing it to get this far already.

To the people believing our government is doing this to protect us and secure America-

until our borders are secure, the War on Terror, the NSA Echelon, the USA "Patriot" Act and everything else they are doing in the name of security is a complete and utter farce. Our BORDERS NEED TO BE SEALED AND PROTECTED.

Are you all aware of the Narus systems in place at the trunks of the major telecom providers? This database is not just a harmless list of call logs. It ties into systems that monitor all forms of communications based on semantics, it ISN'T new, and the government continues to just admit to enough of it with leaving the rest of the details out until the story breaks and forces them to admit more.

Echelon has been in place since the mid 80's, my father worked on it and told me about it. This is NOT new, and it is far more invasive than people are giving it credit for.

The danger is not in call logs - the danger is in the datamining of those call logs tied in with other profile databases. And it needs to be dismantled- or the government needs to publicly arrest and try the 1000's of terrorists that are on American soil this program is supposed to be monitoring. Give me one example of this system bringing down a terrorist plot or stopping a cell. I can give you 4x as many examples of it being used to track American citizen groups doing nothing to endanger the public.


[edit on 12-5-2006 by Violent]

Originally posted by grover
The right wing apologists keep saying I lie when I call it like I see it but tell me who keeps violating the constituation?

Get off yourself and your hate-filled rhetoric of "right wing apologists," grover.
This is non-news and has been.

You or others do not think so, tell you what, how about type in Buy Phone Records and tell me how many entries you see? Is the ability to buy your phone records ok with you or is that unconstitutional, as well? Let me guess, what was constitutional to you in 1999 is unconstitutional to you today? Perchance, were you a left wing apologist back then, cause apparently most people and individuals of your political leaning and/or make-up had no problem when Democrats supported such programs as Eschelon and Carnivore?

Surprising is that you, as with most other left wing media outlets--who are now condemning Bush's NSA doings, called it a "necessity" back when Clinton was doing the same thing and this nation was NOT involved with the War on Terrorism. How is that what was a "necessity" then, what was considered constitutional then is now, under Bush, considered and deemed unconstitutional, huh? You people and your ilk are nothing but prime Grade-A walking and talking contradictions and hypocrites.

What is most dubious here is that you conspiracy and political rhetoric experts here have failed to see the TIMING of this old news USA article. Ironic, huh?




seekerof

[edit on 12-5-2006 by Seekerof]

Violent- yes, we are all prisoners now. And we are keeping the borders open on purpose- More prisoners??? I just dont get it. Am i supposed to get it?

On the one hand, the calls are being logged, monitored, call it what you wish.

On the other hand, they want more and more illegals in this country.

THAT IS WHAT IS FREAKING WRONG HERE. Sorry- lost it for a minute.

This is a two handed operation. Just put up with it and shut up, according to Bush.

When he looks at the camera and says we need to catch them terrists, i get physically ill. Maybe that is what is supposed to happen. Becoming ill.

Its nothing but mindplaying and brain futzing every day. This is why i get so angry at some fellow posters who will not or cannot see this.

What can i say that hasnt been said and articulated much better than my rendition.....

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by grover
You people and your ilk are nothing but prime Grade-A walking and talking contradictions and hypocrites.

What is most dubious here is that you conspiracy and political rhetoric experts here have failed to see the TIMING of this old news USA article. Ironic, huh?




seekerof

[edit on 12-5-2006 by Seekerof]

Wow, things have gotten bad, Seekerof. For you to come here and patronize us this way..... Pardon us for not beleiving the scumbag president of yours who does nothing but lie...dont be calling us hypocrites either. Ironic, huh, that the story wont go away? And it peeves you off to no end????
I am very ashamed to be posting on the same page as you at this moment.
You were hooting and hollering with Clinton, but now you support this evil. Talk about insane