NSA is keeping logs of phones calls in the US

If you're willing to sacrifice other Americans' freedoms so you can have the illusion of "safety", you don't deserve the freedoms you have.

People who trust their government to "do the right thing" are morons.


Yeah, that's right. Governments lie and cheat and steal. Give them blind trust at your peril.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Just ran across this real issue:

May 12, 2006 — Americans by nearly a 2-1 ratio call the surveillance of telephone records an acceptable

A classic example of why the Founders made sure that the public did not have power in the nation, because it would lead to a mobocracy.

What does it matter if the people accept this, its illegal.

HIJACKED

This thread has been hijacked by those who are not really interested in the subject at hand, but are much more interested in spouting their unproven and anecdotal claims of a nefarious plot to transform our country into some fascist dictatorship, driven by their personal dislike for the current administration.

I wish you folks would cut it out.

And while your at it, take a good look at history. Take a good look at some of the secrecy, espionage, anti-sedition, and force protection measures that were implemented during WWI and WWII. Then, imagine if we applied those steps to today's situation. I think you will find that our approach today would be considered "mild mannered" by the folks soldiered through the previous two world wars.

The basic problem that 1/3 of our country seems to be having with this program is that, in simple terms, they don't like the idea that someone may be spying on them. Its as simple as that. Spare me your indignant cries for the "loss of our constitutional rights". You haven't lost any. You are no less free than you were 10 or 20 years ago. You are probably more free, if anything. Especially if you happen to be a member of a minority group. This country makes a national flipping pastime out of making sure everyone gets treated fairly, and that the specific freedoms guarenteed in the Constitutions are maintained.

The Constitution does not guarentee you the freedom to be completely out of the reach of the government, by the people and for the people. Decisions are sometimes made, sometime very unpopular decisions at that, that are designed to enhance the greater good of the country, the people, and the American posterity. The beauty of the system is its ability to change and be modified in order to adapt to the current animus, or to bend to the will of the people as a whole. This prevents harsh decisions made in the heat of conflict from becoming policy, or for more rational and informed future generations to reflect back, and decide that some rules are occasionally made in haste and are better off undone.

But the Constitution does not guarentee that you can live your life in peaceful, unmolested bliss, at the expense of the pain and suffering of others. The government has a duty to protect the residents of this country. Recently, there was great loss of innocent life, and for all practical purposes, our glass dream house of Fortress America was shattered forever. A great amount of blame was created and assigned, and do not think for a minute that those people "on watch" on 9/11 didn't take that attack personally, feel the heat and anger of those who they were charged to protect, and to some degress take personal responsibility for the deaths of the innocents. This administration is fixated on the thought that an attack like this will "not happen on my watch". Not again while I'm here. Hopefully, not ever.

Like it or not, Big Brother is going to walk you to school, check out your friends, and hang around at your social gatherings. He is going to do everything to prevent you from being hurt again. He feels guilty, and duty-bound. You will not be able to rationaize with him, and you are probably partially to blame for making him feel so guilty. Learn to accept his good-intentioned heavy-handedness, and wait for the storm to blow over (as it eventually will).

And I'll apologize in advance...but anyone who honestly and truly believes that this is part of some Machiavellian plan to somehow subvert our system of government, or to enrich and empower a select few people.......you really do have some screws loose and need to get out of your house once in a while.

Originally posted by Jakomo
People who trust their government to "do the right thing" are morons.

Spoken like a true anarchist.

Instead of making really lame and unfounded generalizations, why don't you go do something about it? Run for office, try to make a change.

Oh, but wait! Then you will be part of the system! Then you will become that which you despise, right?

So, which is it? Join the Evil Empire, or sit on the sideline and snipe away at the system that continuously oppresses you?

Paaa-thetic

politics is no place for an honest man to begin with. You honestly think that for one person to join politics they can change the whole system of corruption and greed?

There has been a program within the NSA called Echelon for at least 10 years spying on phone conversations. This issue is nothing new and we shouldn't at all surprised. The US military industrial complex has virtually infinite resources and has had all kinds of classified state of the art technology.

The black operations budget is in the billions and with no accountibility to the people to say what they are spending it on. I wish we knew what technology the military is hiding and using against us.



[edit on 12-5-2006 by Crazy_Mr_Crowley]

[edit on 12-5-2006 by Crazy_Mr_Crowley]

pyros you sound like the type thats ok with giving up some parts of the constitution and some of your freedoms as long as your life isn't at risk.

Ive got news for you, living means your life is at risk. There comes a point where you have to say, nope to me this is worth more then the possibility of dying. If you want to live free, theres the possibility you will die for it. Like it or not, its a choice you have to make. In this society is was made on the belief of being free, and that in itself is risking your life. You are a patriot if your willing to die for that freedom. Those people in the towers 9/11 were patriots because they died for freedom. They choose to be free, and sometimes things happen. Thats life.

People now are more afraid of death then anything else. You will make drugs to stop disease, laws to stop terrorists, wars to stop the idea of being attacked.(which is ironic because your willing to sent people to there death in order to stop killing.) Yet you refuse to except the fact that if you want to be free you may die in the process. Thats life, people die. I could die tomorrow, but as long as I died being free what do I have to regret? I'm going to die one way or another, so why spend my life trying to keep myself safe while never living at all.

Is a short life well lived worth more then a long life never lived at all?

Afterlife or not, it would be a waste of time to use this experience on protecting it from the inevitable rather then using it to the fullest. Until you see it like that, your dooming yourself to your own fate. Like it or not, one day your going to die just like the rest of us. Its not about how long you live, but what you do with it while your here. Personally, being free is worth more then how long I live.

I don't need protection because I'm too busy trying to live my life. I will defend myself if I can, and I would expect any other person to do the same in the threat of death. But such defense can only be worth it if they don't take away from living life itself, or as we know it as freedom.

I would expect anyone to stand up in the face of oppression, now as any other time. Right now we have businesses looking to make a profit by wars and laws. politics being their best weapon. It may not be my freedom thats being attacked, but it is being attacked, so I must speak out about it. If you can justify a war to free iraq, I say its time to free home.

There was a time when the greater good of the country was making sure that we were free. The greater good is never security. Who is deciding what the greater good is? to me it sounds like the top government owned by corporations is deciding whats the greater good of the people. Unfortunately, that isn't their responsiblity, its suppose to be ours. Corruption has made that void and we are no longer in control. So the greater good isn't actually for the greater good of us all, just the benefit of a few.

The only protection needed is against those in the process of taking away our freedom. We cannot try to stop the crime before its commited, just be ready for the strike and make sure we dont fall from the blow. A foreign country tries to invade and make us under a dictatorship, thats the protection we need. Not so much trying to see the invasion coming just having our forces ready to go, and ready to withstand the biggest blow that can be dealt. We will not win our wars through prediction of actions, but through our unity as a people, and our will to protect what we feel is worth fighting for. And that cannot fail, because no dictator can ever destroy an ideal, and what we stood for will always come back...it will always be there.

I cant say that people won't die in the process, because many will. Many people will die to live free, but keep in mind the many that died just to reach the point we are letting be taken away from us. The european immigrants had the nerve to stand up to the super power of the world at the time, in the name of being free...what does that tell you? They died to become free, and many will die to keep that going. The day we let all those go in vain is the day we lose.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by grimreaper797]

Originally posted by Seekerof
You or others do not think so, tell you what, how about type in Buy Phone Records and tell me how many entries you see? Is the ability to buy your phone records ok with you or is that unconstitutional, as well? Let me guess, what was constitutional to you in 1999 is unconstitutional to you today?
What is most dubious here is that you conspiracy and political rhetoric experts here have failed to see the TIMING of this old news USA article. Ironic, huh?

[edit on 12-5-2006 by Seekerof]

THANK YOU! Finally someone said it. But, no one is listening. I'm not a Bush supporter, but even I can see that this is non news with a spin.

Edited large quote

[edit on 12-5-2006 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by Pyros
HIJACKED

I wish you folks would cut it out.

And while your at it, take a good look at history. Take a good look at some of the secrecy, espionage, anti-sedition, and force protection measures that were implemented during WWI and WWII. Then, imagine if we applied those steps to today's situation. I think you will find that our approach today would be considered "mild mannered" by the folks soldiered through the previous two world wars.

This basic statement sums up why we have "lost" the last several wars that we have fought. The media, for one, has been given far too much "freedom of the press". That term, in the 1700's, meant the ability to print what they wanted from a largely political standpoint (criticism of the King and etc.). It did NOT mean that they can hound celebrities (breaking several "peeping tom" and other laws), and it did NOT mean that they could insist on leaking valuable national secrets and intelligence to the enemy and call it news. What these folks are doing now is endangering the lives of thousands and this includes you and me.

Every time a reporter feels that it is their god-given right to print whatever they want, to include classified information, they risk the lives and livelihood of others and should be held accountable. I signed an agreement to safeguard and not divulge classified national security information, and so should they.

Is this an example of extreme behavior? Probably, but desperate times...

As for the WWI and II examples listed above....yes, sir. You are correct about the media control and public perception that was used and manipulated to win these wars. The same should happen for the War on Terror. These terrorists and countries that support them do not deserve the respect and admiration currently shown to them by our media today. And the amount of disinformation that happened in the 1940's and 50's compared to today....and we're still here aren't we?

Time will tell the damage done by the mainstream media and their insistence on giving away elements to what is in fact a global criminal investigation. They are interfering with the processes in place which will hopefully catch and kill those who seek to harm us. We sacrafice so little compared to any other nation today for the freedoms and protection which we currently enjoy. No one seems to be willing to do what it takes and catch and kill these criminals (the terrorists, folks...the terrorists).

Originally posted by Tha Troubleshoota
Time will tell the damage done by the mainstream media and their insistence on giving away elements to what is in fact a global criminal investigation. They are interfering with the processes in place which will hopefully catch and kill those who seek to harm us. We sacrafice so little compared to any other nation today for the freedoms and protection which we currently enjoy. No one seems to be willing to do what it takes and catch and kill these criminals (the terrorists, folks...the terrorists).

Well one thing is for sure, thanks to the Media the so-called 'terrorists' now know who their friends are.....Qwest! This is not a one sentence post.

[edit on 12-5-2006 by zenlover28]

Originally posted by zenlover28

Originally posted by Tha Troubleshoota
Time will tell the damage done by the mainstream media and their insistence on giving away elements to what is in fact a global criminal investigation. They are interfering with the processes in place which will hopefully catch and kill those who seek to harm us. We sacrafice so little compared to any other nation today for the freedoms and protection which we currently enjoy. No one seems to be willing to do what it takes and catch and kill these criminals (the terrorists, folks...the terrorists).

Well one thing is for sure, thanks to the Media the so-called 'terrorists' now know who their friends are.....Qwest!

And CNN.

Pyros:

Instead of making really lame and unfounded generalizations, why don't you go do something about it? Run for office, try to make a change.

I can bring about more change from the outside instead of from the inside. I’m involved in my community, I help out those who need it, and I try to honor and respect other people, and show them sympathy.

The government is there to help themselves get re-elected. Nothing more. Mostly two-faced flip-flopping whores who will say what they think their constituents want to hear. So they should be treated as such.


America was FOUNDED on distrust of government. Where have you been?

Originally posted by Tha Troubleshoota
and it did NOT mean that they could insist on leaking valuable national secrets and intelligence to the enemy and call it news. What these folks are doing now is endangering the lives of thousands and this includes you and me.

Umm...this "news" isn't actually "news". We knew all this years ago - what the hell are you talking about? How is coverage of a program that people already knew about who were interested putting any lives in danger??

People can say what they want, they can call me whatever name they desire, but it won't stop me from saying what I believe is true.

The Federal Government is a criminal organisation.

Our government was created "By the people, for the people", but when the government starts spying on it's citizens, trolling for incriminating material, it is no longer "for the people". It's quite obvious that it's against the people at that point and I don't care how long they've been doing it.

I think people these days have forgotten what freedom means. Freedom, true individual freedom, is not given, you are born with it. Freedom is not our ability to go to the mall and buy what we want. Freedom is when you stand up and say "No more!". If your government is curtailing your "god given right' to life liberty and the persuit of happiness then you have a duty to defend it.

Some people are saying that this eavsdropping is completely constitutional, and I'll agree to that with one stippulation. That stipulation is that you as an individual have decided that your right to living your life in private is not important to you.

The 9th ammendment of the Costitution clearly says that we as citizens are allowed to reserve certain rights not clearly prohibited by state or (later) federal law. I, as a true American citizen, reserve the right to my privacy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I do not believe there is a law stating anywhere that my phone convorsations, internet activity, private mail, or any other correspondance is public information.

And here is the ammendment in full:

'"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."'

Spying on me (and IMO any other citizen) is unconstitutional. More over it is clearly the actions of a govermnet wishing to protect itself from it's citizens. I'm not even going to touch the fact that this arguably falls under our protection from illegal searches and seizures.

I'm an American through and through, my blood is red, white and blue, my family came over on the Mayflower. Apparently I'm also a terrorist because I do openly advocate the freeing of the people from the bonds of a bloated and criminal federal government, I advocate the return of our country to one ruled "By the people, for the people". However, I'm not the only terrorist, you're one too, so are you Pyros, so is Valhall, so is Springer, every one of us is a terrorist. It seems anyone who wishes to defend their rights can be called a terrorist and have all their rights stripped.

Spying on valid US citizens is uncostitutional, illegal, and immoral. I reserve the right to my privacy and the right to defend my other rights, both ennumerated and reserved.

What is curious about this entire thing is how much AT&T and Verizon was paid to go along with with giving phone records out. They would not go with this entire thing willingly. But knowing the government coerced them for sixty pieces of silver...well what do you think then?

Non-news? I think not--especially when Big Business and the government conspire to spy on people in their own country all in the name of "national security".

I wish the people who support this wiretapping proclaim how they are feeling safer today compared to the before 9/11. Demostrate for the rest of us that "wiretapping" our phones will help when there is just as much concern about open borders?

First of all, you need to ask yourself WHY would the government want to waste their valuable time and resources spying on you??? WHY? Let's use some common sense here. Yes, I can agree our civil rights need to be protected, but they aren't doing anything that can't already be done by me or you with a few clicks on the internet.

Yes, why would they waste time? Why would they spend time tapping the phones of their opposition? The matter is that this story is probably bigger than "non-news". We have not reached the tip of the iceberg with this story.

And people are already writing this off as if it is common practice to spy on everyday people whether they are related to terrorism or not.

As long as you don't mind having your civil rights snatched away from you, you needn't worry.

Originally posted by zenlover28
First of all, you need to ask yourself WHY would the government want to waste their valuable time and resources spying on you??? WHY? Let's use some common sense here. Yes, I can agree our civil rights need to be protected, but they aren't doing anything that can't already be done by me or you with a few clicks on the internet.

That's been said many times, yet the fact remains, that if I went to a spy shop and bugged your phone I would deffinitly go to jail.

Is your phone bugged? Is my phone bugged? Whose phone is bugged?

Your phone can and will be bugged if they find "evidence" of you having connection to suspected "terrorist" activity. What evidence? It's in the file labeled "ZenLover" which is part of this enitre phone log scam. Regardless, how can you proclaim this as ok as long as it doesn't happen to you? Will you feel the same way if your neighbors were taken away? I'm tired of people saying "What's the big deal, it won't happen to me, I have nothing to hide"

Shadowflux, i'm not here to argue with you. However, this is political rhetoric. These same media sources did not cover this issue when it was an issue with a Democratic president. However, now it becomes an issue with them? Gimme a break. People are already calling for an impeachment? Why now? What makes him any different?

I don't want to make it sound like that I think it is ok because other Presidents have done it, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't bother you that someone can buy your information off of the internet, but it does bother you that your government is using the information to help prevent a terrorist attack. Why else would they be doing it? Do you think they really care so much about who you talk to? They have to have a court order or a warrant if they suspect you anyhow.

This is being blown way out of proportion.